New Player Hates All The Dice

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

True. It would be pretty easy to build them' date=' for that matter, and a heck of a lot less expensive.[/quote']

 

If you wanted to build one, it would be more expensive to build. If you wanted to build 10, you'd save a LOT. It's neat how the difference between "art supplies" and "lumber" is really nothing more than price and volume.

 

Of course, you'd have to have access to the appropriate tools or it doesn't really matter what the material cost is.

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

(Emphasis mine) I don't mean to burst your bubble, or maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but your proposed method actually *increases* predictability. 3d6 + 31 will give you much less variance than 12d6. Think of it this way: your method is like just like using 12d6, except you're setting four of the dice to 4 and five of the dice to 3, i.e., you're pre-determining 3/4 of the dice. Isn't it obvious how that makes it more predictable? Dice were invented for the purpose of being unpredictable. More dice = more unpredictability. Fewer dice = less unpredictability.

 

If you want a less steep bell curve (higher standard deviation, to put it in technical terms), try substituting the 12d6 with 6d12. Or 9d8. Yes, I know it's blasphemous to suggest using non six-siders for HERO, but we're already dealing with the blasphemy of not wanting to roll a large number of dice.

Actually, it really produces a smaller range.

 

Large numbers of dice, statistically, produce closer to the average rollable than small numbers of dice do.

The range (max - min) goes as the number of dice (theta(n)). The standard deviation goes as the square root of the number of dice (theta(sqrt(n))). The ratio of the standard deviation to the range, which in gaming is usually what we refer to as the, "width," of the distribution for pass/fail determination, goes as the inverse of the square root of the number of dice (theta(1/sqrt(n))).

 

Really the usefulness of an attack is going to depend on where it's mean damage is compared to the amount of defense, and on a damage roll the absolute standard deviation is going to be more appropriate, not the standard deviation relative to the total range. If the average damage is significantly greater than the average defenses of the campaign, then it is actually of greater benefit to have both smaller range and smaller standard deviation (fewer rolled dice). If the average damage is less than or about equal to the average defenses of the campaign, obviously both a greater range and a greater standard deviation is going to be desirable (more rolled dice).

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

If you wanted to build one' date=' it would be more expensive to build. If you wanted to build 10, you'd save a LOT. It's neat how the difference between "art supplies" and "lumber" is really nothing more than price and volume.[/quote']

True, though if you know the right people you can often get enough scraps to build something like that (or a few) for free or for very little.

Of course, you'd have to have access to the appropriate tools or it doesn't really matter what the material cost is.

Certainly. Unless you're going to make significant reuse of the tools.

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

True, though if you know the right people you can often get enough scraps to build something like that (or a few) for free or for very little.

 

Certainly. Unless you're going to make significant reuse of the tools.

 

Fortunately for me, I have a friend with all the appropriate tools, I just need to pick up supplies at Home Depot when I finally get paid. And get this, mine will be hex shaped!

[Ndreare]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Am I the only one who noticed the listed price is $10.00 while the price they charge is $16.20?

 

What the hell kind of a marketing idea are they working with?

 

http://paizo.com/store/gameAids/storage/diceStorage/v5748btpy7cl8

[Greywind]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Most likely a typo. They normally list for $20 or $24 depending on the size, if I recall properly. I own one of the larger trays. Never regretting buying it, between the WizKids' games, Hero, D&D, DragonDice...

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Am I the only one who noticed the listed price is $10.00 while the price they charge is $16.20?

 

What the hell kind of a marketing idea are they working with?

 

http://paizo.com/store/gameAids/storage/diceStorage/v5748btpy7cl8

 

Look a litte more closely, that's an 8 with a line through it, so the list price is $18.00. Looks very much like $10.00 with a line through it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

I'll probably be building one, hex shaped as Dust Raven's will be. Of course - mostly I'm looking for an excuse to buy a circular saw

 

Actually, I need one pretty badly for several other projects.....

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

I'll probably be building one, hex shaped as Dust Raven's will be. Of course - mostly I'm looking for an excuse to buy a circular saw

 

Actually, I need one pretty badly for several other projects.....

 

I can see the conversation now:

 

"Honey, I'm gonna buy a circular saw."

What brought this on?

"Well, it's these really cool dice rolling trays I say online. Turns out that I can make my own cheaper and end up with a hex shaped one instead of octagonal."

A? Dice? Tray?

"Yeah, it's it cool? And once I have that saw, I'll be able to do all those other things around the house."

Other things?!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Never rolling poorly.

 

Never rolling more poorly than about 15% under an average roll, actually - but never rolling higher either. How often do you see a 12d6 roll come up 36 or less? It happens, but it's pretty uncommon. The result is that standard effect is rarely superior to throwing the dice.

 

The standard effect also never rolls above average BOD, of course. And, because it never gets an above average STUN result, I don't see it stunning a target very often. The proof is in the pudding, however - how often do you ever see players take Standard Effect?

 

Well' date=' if you follow the criticisms of the STUN Lotto, the reason why it might be fair to have a slightly lower value for SE than an actual average of the dice is because it's statistically advantageous to have a dead average roll compared to a completely variable roll. I might be wrong on this, as I haven't done the numbers.[/quote']

 

A KA does less stun on average than an equal powered normal attack. Its gretaer volatility results in it averaging more STUN past defenses if defenses exceed about 5 for every 3 DC of attack.

 

For all I know' date=' Steve just picked 3 because it's easier to multiply by 3s that 3.5s. If it turns out that's all he did, I'm instantly house ruling this to 3.5 because it's just as easy to multiply by 7s.[/quote']

 

Given Steve doesn't discuss philosophy of design, I doubt you'll ever get the straight goods on why he chose this approach. I suspect 3.5, rather than 3, wouldn't have a huge impact, but it would be more equitable, IMO, and better balance standard effect with random rolls.

 

Regardless' date=' rolling Standard Effect as a solution to someone not liking to roll dice could work, though as you imply, only if the final results are just as fair as actually rolling. The player should not be pelanized for having a preference.[/quote']

 

Oddly, the reduced volatility of standard effect or the reduced dice of a more volatile KA would both solve the problem by reducing the number of dice.

[Greywind]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Another option is a dice trap. I haven't seen anyone selling those in forever. An open top tower with a dice tray at the bottom. A couple of slants in the tower, with a couple of obstacles for the dice to bounce off of.

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Fortunately for me' date=' I have a friend with all the appropriate tools, I just need to pick up supplies at Home Depot when I finally get paid. And get this, [i']mine[/i] will be hex shaped!

Of course they will (it just makes the angles slightly more difficult; pretty trivial, though)!

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Another option is a dice trap. I haven't seen anyone selling those in forever. An open top tower with a dice tray at the bottom. A couple of slants in the tower' date=' with a couple of obstacles for the dice to bounce off of.[/quote']

Yahtzee anyone?

[Greywind]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Not quite.

[Lucius]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

By the way, standard effect 3 points per die is a +0/-0. Given that, one would expect it to be more or less equivalent to normal rolling. How often does anyone use standard effect? Could it be the penalty from average results in a perceived disadvantage greater than -0? This is a 14.29% reduction from the expected damage average per die - probably not enough for -1/4, but probably too much to just throw away on most powers.

 

.

 

I use standard effect for one of Quetzelcoatl's powers.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a standard effect, variable special effect palindromedary

[Ndreare]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Look a litte more closely' date=' that's an 8 with a line through it, so the list price is $18.00. Looks very much like $10.00 with a line through it.[/quote']

Actually just so you know, I used copy and paste to see what it says and you are only 100% correct as opposed to 101% or any number over 100% that could be considered absolute in its correctness. Which in turn makes me only 100% wrong as opposed to the previous 100% wrong.

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Actually just so you know' date=' I used copy and paste to see what it says and you are only 100% correct as opposed to 101% or any number over 100% that could be considered absolute in its correctness. Which in turn makes me only 100% wrong as opposed to the previous 100% wrong.[/quote']

 

Damn! And I need that extra 1% as my final ingredient in my Eat This And You Become A God pie!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

I use standard effect for one of Quetzelcoatl's powers.

 

To place this in context, one of how many powers purchased by one of how many characters?

[Lucius]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

To place this in context' date=' one of how many powers purchased by one of how many characters?[/quote']

 

Well, to address the second point first, I was thinking only of the Champions character I am currently running - I have had other characters that used standard effect, especially spellcasters in Fantasy Hero.

 

Other than powers bought through his variable power pool, and without actually checking the character sheet, I think he has only two powers to which "standard effect" COULD be applied, not counting STR. One is his sword, and the other is a broad Aid to several of his characteristics. I standardized the latter. Further, I have adjusted some of those numbers downward - 5 STR rather than the 9 I could have had with standard effect, for example.

 

 

To clarify the "context" even more - and, in the process, bolster the point you were trying to make - I have often enough used standard effect for things like Aid, but seldom for attack powers.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Applying standard effect to a nonstandard palindromedary.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

To clarify the "context" even more - and' date=' in the process, bolster the point you were trying to make - I have often enough used standard effect for things like Aid, but seldom for attack powers.[/quote']

Same here. Only time I can remember using it for attack powers is for some NPC-on-NPC attacks.

[Silbeg]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Am I the only one who noticed the listed price is $10.00 while the price they charge is $16.20?

 

What the hell kind of a marketing idea are they working with?

 

http://paizo.com/store/gameAids/storage/diceStorage/v5748btpy7cl8

Where do you see $10? All I see is the 16.20

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

To clarify the "context" even more - and' date=' in the process, bolster the point you were trying to make - I have often enough used standard effect for things like Aid, but seldom for attack powers.[/quote']

 

That's my experience as well - the Aid going for a specific effect is one area I have seen SE used, but rarely on an attack power.

[Ndreare]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Where do you see $10? All I see is the 16.20

Refer to attached tumbnail.

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Refer to attached tumbnail.

Huh. It does look like a 10 in your snapshot. It must be the resolution (or default font?) you use. I saw 18 pretty clearly on my browser:

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Large numbers of dice, statistically, produce closer to the average rollable than small numbers of dice do.

 

So in one respect you are cutting down on predictability (statistically speaking the smaller number of dice you roll the wider the variance from average you get) but shortening the available range (the smaller number of dice have less numbers you can roll up).

Not true. Let's use a 12 DC power as an example:

 

If you use a flat standard effect - 3.5 per die - you get 42 pips of effect. No dice, 100% predictable. You get an average roll 100% of the time.

 

If you use 2 dice + 35, you still get an average of 42, but it only happens 1/6 of the time. You get more than 5 pips away from average exactly 0% of the time.

 

If you use 3 dice + 31, the average is 41.5. You get the middle four values (40-43) almost 50% of the time. You get 42 exactly 1/8 of the time.

 

If you use 12 dice, you get an average of 42. You get the middle 5 values (40-44) about 44% of the time. You get 42 about 1/15 of the time.

 

FYI: The standard deviation on N d6 is easily calculated by this formula:

 

....._____

..../ 35N

.../ -----

.V....12

 

The square root of (35N/12).

 

The more dice you use, the less likely you are to get an average result.

 

Edit: Ignore the periods. The formatting automatically eliminates multiple spaces. I just wanted it to line up nicely.