New Player Hates All The Dice

[Mister E]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Another suggestion I've seen for large dice rolls is to use Standard Effect for all but the last three or four; those are rolled normally. Much faster, but still adds some randomness to the result.

 

I haven't tried this out myself, though.

This is an excellent idea. It appeals to my deep-seated belief that damage in HERO can be taken as exponential in nature; and that super-powered combat in the upper range, should be as dynamic and exciting as normal-level combat.

 

It's always bugged me how predictable large numbers of dice generally are.

 

I'd suggest going with 3d6, using 3 Damage Classes (15 STR) as the center-point, and adjusting the results +/- 3.5 Stun and/or 1 Body, for each shift in Damage Class, rounding down.

 

For instance:

 

Thunder-Gawd punches Ultraman with a 12 DC (60 STR) normal attack. 12 is 9 DC's greater than 3... so Thunder-Gawd rolls 3d6, and adds 31 (9 x 3.5, rounding down) to the result.

 

3d6 creates a nice bell curve.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Hmm... it came out as a perfectly functional .html file for me. Thing is' date=' it unzips contained in a Folder named "herodice," which of course has no extension. Perhaps that's where the problem is.[/quote']This must be some function of how your unzipping app is configured. It doesn't do that for me. I see only the herodice.html file all by itself in the zip, and it works fine when opened. Dust Raven must have gotten a corrupted download or something.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

You could allow her to take Standard Effect on all her Powers.

 

 

What ideasmith said, go with standard damage. That way she only has to roll to hit. Easy, simple, and quick.

[Ndreare]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Just an update. After talking to her and playing it was decided to keep her character built in such a way that rolling more than four dice at once is not required.

 

So the option presented of using NND, AVLD and killing attacks was selected. She did not like the idea of looking up things on a table (I liked the table idea) and the multiply by X were no good. On her 13D6 Quantum Bolt (read EB) she will be rolling 3D6+30 for damage. While it does streamline the amount of damage predicted from her character, I think she is missing out on some of the time when you roll a whole mess of dice in the 4-6 range.

 

For me sometimes it is just plain fun to roll a huge handful of dice. On a good note her husband is loving the game and thinks it could easily replace D&D. He think the coolest part is that he can play in all the different Genre’s without reading a bunch of optional rules that make the characters not quite flesh with other characters. (Fooled him)

[Lucius]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

I was accusing your toaster. And your coffee maker. It is a conspiracy.

 

I don't have a coffee maker. If I'm not mistaken, the island of Java is still used to grow coffee. But what does my toaster have to do with dice?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that it takes talent to get as confused as Lucius can get.

[casualplayer]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

I would just get her a dice cup. Nab one from a backgammon or Yahtzee game, or there are ones for sale from most gambling or FLGSs. 10 bucks says she doesn't feel she gets a good, satisfying shake (because her hands are so small) and that she doesn't like the messy dice spray when they hit the table. I've known folks that didn't like Hero because it seemed like they were constantly creating messes that they had to immediately clean up everytime they rolled the dice. She could also split the difference and keep the cup loaded with her bolt damage of 13d6 and do smaller rolls by hand.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

I would just get her a dice cup. Nab one from a backgammon or Yahtzee game' date=' or there are ones for sale from most gambling or FLGSs. 10 bucks says she doesn't feel she gets a good, satisfying shake (because her hands are so small) and that she doesn't like the messy dice spray when they hit the table. I've known folks that didn't like Hero because it seemed like they were constantly creating messes that they had to immediately clean up everytime they rolled the dice. She could also split the difference and keep the cup loaded with her bolt damage of 13d6 and do smaller rolls by hand.[/quote']

On the mess part ... that is starting to get to me. I'm going to be investing in a dice box in the near future to roll into.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

On her 13D6 Quantum Bolt (read EB) she will be rolling 3D6+30 for damage.

 

I'd make that 3d6 + 35 STUN. A 13d6 EB nomrally averages 45.5 STUN (13 x 3.5). Using the 3 point per die standard, your player will average 40.5, less than the 42 average of a typical 12d6 attack.

 

To me, it's not fair to give the player under-average results for using standard effect.

[Ndreare]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

I know 3.5 is standard for a 1D6 roll but I was useing the Standard effect option from the book. I am sure if I go to her and say she gets another 5 points of damage she will be happy.

 

Hopefuly this issue is resolved. Based on the last game it all went smooth so I am crossing my fingers. (Maybe after a while she will see the others like her husband loving all the dice and she will jump on board.)

[gojira]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

If you take a Yatzhee cup or similar, and quickly invert it on the table, the dice don't go anywhere. This won't work for 10's of dice but for three or four it'll be fine.

 

On the mess part ... that is starting to get to me. I'm going to be investing in a dice box in the near future to roll into.

 

I tried to find the online version of the Knight's of the Dinner Table comic where Bob gets a player's screen with a dice drawer, but I couldn't. Too bad, it's totally hillarious.

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

My players discovered that there are little flat boxes that I think 24-packs of soda cans come in. They are excellent for rolling dice, and you can put just about everything else (character sheet, pencils, whatever) you need as a player in there too.

[casualplayer]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

If you take a Yatzhee cup or similar' date=' and quickly invert it on the table, the dice don't go anywhere. This won't work for 10's of dice but for three or four it'll be fine.[/quote']

 

Nah, it'll still work but some will be on top of each other. A little flourish at the end of the roll when lifting the dice cup takes care of all the leaners. It can get kinda addicting to see just how many dice you can get piled up under the cup with a roll, but that's a whole other problem.

 

As an aside, if the clatter when they land is a problem, CCG combat mats make a nice sound dampener for dice. Can you tell yet I used to pimp this stuff for a living?

[Silbeg]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

I know 3.5 is standard for a 1D6 roll but I was useing the Standard effect option from the book. I am sure if I go to her and say she gets another 5 points of damage she will be happy.

I would say that leaving it at the Standard Effect level of 3/die would be fine.

1. that is the cost of never rolling poorly with those dice
   
2. is supported by the system
   
3. the potential for increased damage may be an incentive to roll more dice

Just my humble opinion...

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

My players discovered that there are little flat boxes that I think 24-packs of soda cans come in. They are excellent for rolling dice' date=' and you can put just about everything else (character sheet, pencils, whatever) you need as a player in there too.[/quote']

 

I used an old TV tray once, the kind with the cupped edges. I had to roll over my character sheet though; dice make a LOT of noise when rolling on a metal surface (especialy one suspended). Some of the players in my group use little wooden trays with a felt bottom they found for sale online. They're really nice, though far too expensive for rolling dice in my opinion.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Nah, it'll still work but some will be on top of each other. A little flourish at the end of the roll when lifting the dice cup takes care of all the leaners. It can get kinda addicting to see just how many dice you can get piled up under the cup with a roll, but that's a whole other problem.

 

As an aside, if the clatter when they land is a problem, CCG combat mats make a nice sound dampener for dice. Can you tell yet I used to pimp this stuff for a living?

Or you could get one of these.

 

Too bad they don't come in a Hexagonal shape.

[casualplayer]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Or you could get one of these.

 

Too bad they don't come in a Hexagonal shape.

 

List price $10.00 but, for you, $16.50! Hah! Reminds me of the octagonal poker table I used to use for gaming.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

List price $10.00 but' date=' for you, $16.50! Hah! Reminds me of the octagonal poker table I used to use for gaming.[/quote']

Oh I didn't say I would buy from them... just the first link I came across with a picture

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

I would say that leaving it at the Standard Effect level of 3/die would be fine.

 

that is the cost of never rolling poorly with those dice

 

What is the benefit to offset the inability to ever roll well with those dice?

 

is supported by the system

 

True as far as that goes. Of course, pretty much every problem we complain about on these boards is also supported by the system.

 

the potential for increased damage may be an incentive to roll more dice

 

Or penalizing the player for wishing to roll fewer dice may turn her further off the Hero system, meaning either a change of system or loss of a player.

 

The suggestion of standardizing most of the dice for this player is a compromise to deal with a player "issue" (rational or otherwise) with the system. The GM seems to wish to provide a solution, not penalize the player. To me, avoiding the usual "standard does less than average" structure would be a good step in this direction.

 

By the way, standard effect 3 points per die is a +0/-0. Given that, one would expect it to be more or less equivalent to normal rolling. How often does anyone use standard effect? Could it be the penalty from average results in a perceived disadvantage greater than -0? This is a 14.29% reduction from the expected damage average per die - probably not enough for -1/4, but probably too much to just throw away on most powers.

 

In addition to the drop in average damage, a Standard Effect likely won't stun opponents, since most characters have enough DEF + CON to avoid being stunned by an average result (ie by 3.5 per die), making a standard effect attack less useful even if granted a perfect average roll. As such, the potential to do more damage is an incentive, even if average damage is granted.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

I have a new player and she hates that the game requires so many dice to be rolled. What I have resolved to do is to use the system for killing attacks for normal attacks.

 

Something I just realized is that I don't think you ever mentioned why she hates rolling so many dice. Has she told you why? I'm seeing a mix here of "Here's what you can do to not roll so many dice" and "Why doesn't she just get over it and roll the dice?"

 

If she's said what she doesn't like about it, then there might be ways to keep the dice while reducing or minimizing the issues she has with it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

I allow an Effect/Damage Roll of 3.5 per die for Standard Effect. Hasn't created problems so far. (Actually anywhere from 0.5-3.5, as often when I am creating a Standard Effect power I am looking for a particular amount of Damage/Effect rather than trying to maximize what I get out of a set number of dice/DCs).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

This is an excellent idea. It appeals to my deep-seated belief that damage in HERO can be taken as exponential in nature; and that super-powered combat in the upper range, should be as dynamic and exciting as normal-level combat.

 

It's always bugged me how predictable large numbers of dice generally are.

 

I'd suggest going with 3d6, using 3 Damage Classes (15 STR) as the center-point, and adjusting the results +/- 3.5 Stun and/or 1 Body, for each shift in Damage Class, rounding down.

 

For instance:

 

Thunder-Gawd punches Ultraman with a 12 DC (60 STR) normal attack. 12 is 9 DC's greater than 3... so Thunder-Gawd rolls 3d6, and adds 31 (9 x 3.5, rounding down) to the result.

 

3d6 creates a nice bell curve.

(Emphasis mine) I don't mean to burst your bubble, or maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but your proposed method actually *increases* predictability. 3d6 + 31 will give you much less variance than 12d6. Think of it this way: your method is like just like using 12d6, except you're setting four of the dice to 4 and five of the dice to 3, i.e., you're pre-determining 3/4 of the dice. Isn't it obvious how that makes it more predictable? Dice were invented for the purpose of being unpredictable. More dice = more unpredictability. Fewer dice = less unpredictability.

 

If you want a less steep bell curve (higher standard deviation, to put it in technical terms), try substituting the 12d6 with 6d12. Or 9d8. Yes, I know it's blasphemous to suggest using non six-siders for HERO, but we're already dealing with the blasphemy of not wanting to roll a large number of dice.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

(Emphasis mine) I don't mean to burst your bubble, or maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but your proposed method actually *increases* predictability. 3d6 + 31 will give you much less variance than 12d6. Think of it this way: your method is like just like using 12d6, except you're setting four of the dice to 4 and five of the dice to 3, i.e., you're pre-determining 3/4 of the dice. Isn't it obvious how that makes it more predictable? Dice were invented for the purpose of being unpredictable. More dice = more unpredictability. Fewer dice = less unpredictability.

 

If you want a less steep bell curve (higher standard deviation, to put it in technical terms), try substituting the 12d6 with 6d12. Or 9d8. Yes, I know it's blasphemous to suggest using non six-siders for HERO, but we're already dealing with the blasphemy of not wanting to roll a large number of dice.

Actually, it really produces a smaller range.

 

Large numbers of dice, statistically, produce closer to the average rollable than small numbers of dice do.

 

So in one respect you are cutting down on predictability (statistically speaking the smaller number of dice you roll the wider the variance from average you get) but shortening the available range (the smaller number of dice have less numbers you can roll up).

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Or you could get one of these.

 

Too bad they don't come in a Hexagonal shape.

 

Holy flying butt monkeys! That's the same try I was just saying some people in my group use.

 

I still think it's too expensive just for rolling dice though.

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

What is the benefit to offset the inability to ever roll well with those dice?

Never rolling poorly.

 

Or penalizing the player for wishing to roll fewer dice may turn her further off the Hero system, meaning either a change of system or loss of a player.

Well, if you follow the criticisms of the STUN Lotto, the reason why it might be fair to have a slightly lower value for SE than an actual average of the dice is because it's statistically advantageous to have a dead average roll compared to a completely variable roll. I might be wrong on this, as I haven't done the numbers. For all I know, Steve just picked 3 because it's easier to multiply by 3s that 3.5s. If it turns out that's all he did, I'm instantly house ruling this to 3.5 because it's just as easy to multiply by 7s.

 

Regardless, rolling Standard Effect as a solution to someone not liking to roll dice could work, though as you imply, only if the final results are just as fair as actually rolling. The player should not be pelanized for having a preference.

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Player Hates All The Dice

 

Holy flying butt monkeys! That's the same try I was just saying some people in my group use.

 

I still think it's too expensive just for rolling dice though.

True. It would be pretty easy to build them, for that matter, and a heck of a lot less expensive.