x3

[Trebuchet]

Re: x3

 

Ah' date=' then we should sever the hands of thieves, then? They're using something they're born with to commit crimes...[/quote']Oh, please! How much further do you intend to drag this ludicrous scenario?

 

We're not mutilating criminal mutants; we're simply making them like everyone else because they have already demonstrated they cannot be trusted with extraordinary powers. And even before we do that, they would have every right to a trial by jury before being sentenced to lose permanently those powers. This amounts, at worst, to permanent chemical castration of a rapist. It is not mutilation.

 

I have no objection to my neighbor owning a gun. I do have a problem with him deciding to rob or terrorize his neighbors with it.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: x3

 

Oh, please! How much further do you intend to drag this ludicrous scenario?

 

We're not mutilating criminal mutants; we're simply making them like everyone else because they have already demonstrated they cannot be trusted with extraordinary powers. And even before we do that, they would have every right to a trial by jury before being sentenced to lose permanently those powers. This amounts, at worst, to permanent chemical castration of a rapist. It is not mutilation.

 

I have no objection to my neighbor owning a gun. I do have a problem with him deciding to rob or terrorize his neighbors with it.

 

So it would be acceptable to lobotomize a criminal mastermind (Luthor or some such) to the point they were 'normal' in intellect?

 

Why not just 'make them like everyone else' in their morality? I think we can do that already, actually...

 

 

Ooh, what about superfit 'mere humans' of the kind who often end up being more dangerous than those with powers? Force feed them junk food to make them flabby? Kneecap them? Inject fat cells?

[caris]

Re: x3

 

It is not mutilation.

 

Yeah, this is the exact same attitude that the doctors had back when the comic book Angel had to have his wings amputated after the "Mutant Massacre" story line. For mutants like Angel is very much a mutilation on par with having a limb cut off. What do you think those things are are on his back?

[Manic Typist]

Re: x3

 

Oh, please! How much further do you intend to drag this ludicrous scenario?

 

We're not mutilating criminal mutants; we're simply making them like everyone else because they have already demonstrated they cannot be trusted with extraordinary powers. And even before we do that, they would have every right to a trial by jury before being sentenced to lose permanently those powers. This amounts, at worst, to permanent chemical castration of a rapist. It is not mutilation.

 

I have no objection to my neighbor owning a gun. I do have a problem with him deciding to rob or terrorize his neighbors with it.

 

To the point that you realize that it isn't ludicrous.

 

Make them like everyone else? How do you propose to do that? Perhaps you could give them your passion for Foxtrot comics hmm? Or perhaps my passion for geek movies? Or my friend's passion for webcomics?

 

Oh, wait... we are all unique.

 

So, you are stripping them of a part of their uniqueness. Their identity. So, it is REMARKABLY like capital punishment in the sense that you are metaphysically mutilating, even "killing" them.

 

We have never said this was wrong. If this was performed after a fair trial by jury, then I would have no real objection. However, this entire discussion occured as a result of someone suggesting that the guards should have summarily "cured" the mutants without any sort of regulatory procedure. That falls somewhere between capital punishment and mutilation, since it occured in what is essentially an illegal manner.

 

You can end someone's life and still leave them with a pulse afterwards.

[garou]

Re: x3

 

I just assumed that Warren has access to a private jet. He is a Billionaire's son after all.

 

TB

I thought about that, but, given the relationship as portrayed between him and his father, I figured that Warren was persona non grata and, as such, would no longer have access to such things.

 

I could be wrong - but, given the fact that Angel serves an even smaller role than he did when he was first with the X-men (when he served as bait for ambushes), we'll never really know.

[Manic Typist]

Re: x3

 

By the way, in X-Men 2 we see a brief glimpse of Hank McCoy on TV, normal. In X3, he is the Beast.

 

What happened?

 

Also, is "Raygunner," one of the fighterpilots from X2, drawn from the comics? I'm trying to keep my eyes peeled for little homages.

[The Monster]

Re: x3

 

To the point that you realize that it isn't ludicrous.

 

Make them like everyone else? How do you propose to do that? Perhaps you could give them your passion for Foxtrot comics hmm? Or perhaps my passion for geek movies? Or my friend's passion for webcomics?

 

Oh, wait... we are all unique.

 

So, you are stripping them of a part of their uniqueness. Their identity. So, it is REMARKABLY like capital punishment in the sense that you are metaphysically mutilating, even "killing" them.

 

We have never said this was wrong. If this was performed after a fair trial by jury, then I would have no real objection. However, this entire discussion occured as a result of someone suggesting that the guards should have summarily "cured" the mutants without any sort of regulatory procedure. That falls somewhere between capital punishment and mutilation, since it occured in what is essentially an illegal manner.

 

You can end someone's life and still leave them with a pulse afterwards.

 

I'll say it's wrong, even if no one else has. It is a simple, steep, and very slippery (even though completely illogical!) slope to go from "this unique ability made the convict able to do this crime" to "everyone with this, or any, unique ability should be punished to avoid this crime being committed this way." It's been done before, is till being done, and, I fear, will be done in the future, even by - or especially by - people who consider themselves "good."

 

To me, the deep and powerful theme of the X-Men movies (or even the comic, although I haven't been reading it for many years now), is precisely that unique abilities and traits are to be treasured, developed, and used for constructive purposes, even - or especially - when others fear or misunderstand you because of those traits. For superpowers, swap in Jewishness, intellectualism, religious believer, atheist, foreigner, black, gifted IQ, gifted athelete, and so forth, all of which I have seen labeled as dangerous and threatening in various times and places throughout history, and not remote or distant history.

 

The punishment should fit the crime, not the prejudice or preference of the elite.

[sinanju]

Re: x3

 

Ah' date=' then we should sever the hands of thieves, then? They're using something they're born with to commit crimes...[/quote']

 

The object isn't to prevent crimes (except indirectly); it's to make it possible to imprison them securely. We can very effectively imprison people who have hands; we've been doing it with great success for a very long time. People with superhuman powers are another matter entirely.

 

You COULD build a non-metallic prison and work assiduously to make sure nothing ferromagnetic is smuggled into this expensive, one-of-a-kind prison which would enable Magneto to escape and wreak havoc again. Or you could dose him with the cure, and then put him in a normal prison, of which we have many.

 

You COULD go to extraordinary lengths to keep Mystique imprisoned and unable to effectively duplicate others and thereby sneak out. Or you coud dose her with the cure, and then put her in a normal prison, of which we have many.

 

Ditto for Juggernaut, Pyro, Toad, Sabertooth, Arclight, and any other mutant who uses his or her powers to assault, rob, murder or terrorize people. Taking away their mutant powers leaves them...human. Oh the horror!

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: x3

 

The object isn't to prevent crimes (except indirectly); it's to make it possible to imprison them securely. We can very effectively imprison people who have hands; we've been doing it with great success for a very long time. People with superhuman powers are another matter entirely.

 

You COULD build a non-metallic prison and work assiduously to make sure nothing ferromagnetic is smuggled into this expensive, one-of-a-kind prison which would enable Magneto to escape and wreak havoc again. Or you could dose him with the cure, and then put him in a normal prison, of which we have many.

 

You COULD go to extraordinary lengths to keep Mystique imprisoned and unable to effectively duplicate others and thereby sneak out. Or you coud dose her with the cure, and then put her in a normal prison, of which we have many.

 

Ditto for Juggernaut, Pyro, Toad, Sabertooth, Arclight, and any other mutant who uses his or her powers to assault, rob, murder or terrorize people. Taking away their mutant powers leaves them...human. Oh the horror!

If ease is the deciding factor, why not just kill them? Hell, why not just kill every prisoner, it would certainly save time and money?

 

I see this as no different than taking a smart guy who used his brain to steal a lot of money and lobotimising him so he's only as smart as a normal person.

[The Monster]

Re: x3

 

The object isn't to prevent crimes (except indirectly); it's to make it possible to imprison them securely. We can very effectively imprison people who have hands; we've been doing it with great success for a very long time. People with superhuman powers are another matter entirely.

 

You COULD build a non-metallic prison and work assiduously to make sure nothing ferromagnetic is smuggled into this expensive, one-of-a-kind prison which would enable Magneto to escape and wreak havoc again. Or you could dose him with the cure, and then put him in a normal prison, of which we have many.

 

You COULD go to extraordinary lengths to keep Mystique imprisoned and unable to effectively duplicate others and thereby sneak out. Or you coud dose her with the cure, and then put her in a normal prison, of which we have many.

 

Ditto for Juggernaut, Pyro, Toad, Sabertooth, Arclight, and any other mutant who uses his or her powers to assault, rob, murder or terrorize people. Taking away their mutant powers leaves them...human. Oh the horror!

 

And lobotomizing intelligent criminals leaves them...able to do productive manual labor, to be useful citizens. This is not a mere issue of depriving a person of tools with which to commit crimes - this is about destroying, not merely supressing or controlling, but destroying - something innate to the existence, personality, and capability of a person. (Yes, the film hinted that the destruction of power was not permanent, but Im assuming that for the most part the statements of permanence was correct.) It is exactly analogous to severing a limb or destroying intellectual or emotional capacity.

 

All that said, I agree there is a problem: how to restrain those mutants with extreme powers. What I notice, however, is that when called for by the plot, the government didn't really have a problem under most circumstances. (In X3, for example, the transport van which, barring outside intervention, was quite capable of keeping half a dozen such dangerous individuals secure whiel remaining mobile.) The plastic cage from X2, while extreme, was designed for an extreme individual, and again, barring carefully planned outside intervention (one including multiple use of superhuman powers), was capable of keeping Magneto for as long as necessary. So it could be done without resorting to draconian measures which would set precedents threatening to all of us.

 

Besides which, a person convicted of the crimes Magneto committed - multiple massacre among others - would merit the death penalty. Of course, that just begs the issue again, since death sentences take years of appeals before resolution.

 

It's always easy for those in power to excuse, rationalize, and explain away their use and abuse of power.

[Trebuchet]

Re: x3

 

To the point that you realize that it isn't ludicrous.

 

Make them like everyone else? How do you propose to do that? Perhaps you could give them your passion for Foxtrot comics hmm? Or perhaps my passion for geek movies? Or my friend's passion for webcomics?

 

Oh, wait... we are all unique.

 

So, you are stripping them of a part of their uniqueness. Their identity. So, it is REMARKABLY like capital punishment in the sense that you are metaphysically mutilating, even "killing" them.

 

We have never said this was wrong. If this was performed after a fair trial by jury, then I would have no real objection. However, this entire discussion occured as a result of someone suggesting that the guards should have summarily "cured" the mutants without any sort of regulatory procedure. That falls somewhere between capital punishment and mutilation, since it occured in what is essentially an illegal manner.

 

You can end someone's life and still leave them with a pulse afterwards.

Their uniqueness? In Marvel mutants don't even begin to get their powers until they reach puberty, which means their individuality and personality is already pretty well established before they get those powers. They can survive the loss of their powers, because they've already lived without them for twelve or thirteen years.

 

A professional athlete who suffers an injury and can never compete in his sport again has certainly suffered a grievous loss, but he's still a person and still able to have a meaningful life. So too would a criminal mutant legally stripped of his powers (How meaningful his life would be in prison is a topic for another thread, but that would largely depend on the nature of his crimes. There's a big difference between murder and robbing banks non-violently.)

 

As for the guard zapping Mystique and the soldiers using the drug in the final battle, I'll file that under the same rules that allows prison guards to use deadly force to prevent escapes - if you can legally and morally kill an escapee to prevent him from escaping, you damn sure can justify stripping him of superhuman powers but leaving him alive.

 

You people certainly are taking some interesting twists in logic to condemn a practice which merely makes a person normal as opposed to killing him.

[Manic Typist]

Re: x3

 

Their uniqueness? In Marvel mutants don't even begin to get their powers until they reach puberty' date=' which means their individuality and personality is already pretty well established before they get those powers. They can survive the loss of their powers, because [i']they've already lived without them for twelve or thirteen years.[/i]

 

A professional athlete who suffers an injury and can never compete in his sport again has certainly suffered a grievous loss, but he's still a person and still able to have a meaningful life. So too would a criminal mutant legally stripped of his powers (How meaningful his life would be in prison is a topic for another thread, but that would largely depend on the nature of his crimes. There's a big difference between murder and robbing banks non-violently.)

 

As for the guard zapping Mystique and the soldiers using the drug in the final battle, I'll file that under the same rules that allows prison guards to use deadly force to prevent escapes - if you can legally and morally kill an escapee to prevent him from escaping, you damn sure can justify stripping him of superhuman powers but leaving him alive.

 

You people certainly are taking some interesting twists in logic to condemn a practice which merely makes a person normal as opposed to killing him.

 

Personality and disposition, etc, formation occurs for most of a person's life, especially in the years leading up to your 20s. Therefore, they still have a long way to go.

 

Really? And for every athlete that successfully makes that transition, how many more are there who are always bitter about their loss? How many shut people out of their lives? Resort to alcholism? Suicide? People either adapt, or they fall. I don't think we should go about willynilly forcing people into a position where they must adapt, or fall.

 

The guard zapping Mystique was fine. She was in the middle of a violent breakout. If the guard had zapped her while she was just sitting in her cell: not fine.

 

They aren't twists in logic. You are ignoring the humanity of these mutants. The logic that you are using is the exact same logic used by tyrants and dictators to justify forced labor, ethnic cleansing, torture, and mutilation (even your arguments of "making them normal," a proposition that is fundamentally impossible because their is no "normal"). The fact is that the "cure" fundmanetally alters the very life of the mutant who receives it.

 

Edit: I am not saying you ARE or support those who engage in such horrendous practices, I'm merely pointing at that I view your logic as being "twisted" and point out the typical results of such reasoning.

[The Monster]

Re: x3

 

There is all the difference in the world between accidental injury or injury in the heat of action, and deliberate governmental or social intervention.

[GoldenAge]

Re: x3

 

Really? And for every athlete that successfully makes that transition' date=' how many more are there who are always bitter about their loss? How many shut people out of their lives? Resort to alcholism? Suicide? People either adapt, or they fall. I don't think we should go about willynilly forcing people into a position where they must adapt, or fall.[/quote']

Oh, c'mon... All athletes retire (usually young) and 99% do so without ever coming close to reaching their dreams or even their potential.

 

I say this as a former athlete who knows and is friends with many others (all well adjusted and successful in the "real" world).

[Manic Typist]

Re: x3

 

Oh, c'mon... All athletes retire (usually young) and 99% do so without ever coming close to reaching their dreams or even their potential.

 

I say this as a former athlete who knows and is friends with many others (all well adjusted and successful in the "real" world).

 

But an athlete who willingly retires is different from one who has been "cut down in their prime," by an accident or deliberate act.

 

Which is what the cure represents.

[GoldenAge]

Re: x3

 

But an athlete who willingly retires is different from one who has been "cut down in their prime," by an accident or deliberate act.

 

Which is what the cure represents.

Y'mean like myself? I was injured and could no longer compete. In fact my injuries due to sports continue to this day. I miss it and wish I'd been able to continue. I felt stripped of my right to try... But I made a wonderful life for myself anyway.

 

Are you an athlete? You seem to know allot. You should know that only the top 1% actually get where they're going. All of the other wannabes are forced to change their goals and try new things... It's not a voluntary thing. I'd bet that every ex-athlete you encounter would have LOVED to be a pro or go on to athletic success... But they aren't allowed to due to outside forces. And all the ones I know adjusted well and are happy despite their loss.

[caris]

Re: x3

 

Their uniqueness? In Marvel mutants don't even begin to get their powers until they reach puberty' date=' which means their individuality and personality is already pretty well established before they get those powers. They can survive the loss of their powers, because [i']they've already lived without them for twelve or thirteen years.[/i]

 

Several mutants in Marvel either have signs of their mutancy at birth, have their powers at birth, or develop them prior to puberty. Nightcrawler we know looked demonic as an infant. Wizzer and Ms. America's son was born with radioactive power. Jean Grey's telepathy (in the comics) manifested prior to puberty due to a tragic event (friend getting hit by a car iirc).

 

A professional athlete who suffers an injury and can never compete in his sport again has certainly suffered a grievous loss, but he's still a person and still able to have a meaningful life. So too would a criminal mutant legally stripped of his powers (How meaningful his life would be in prison is a topic for another thread, but that would largely depend on the nature of his crimes. There's a big difference between murder and robbing banks non-violently.)

 

As for the guard zapping Mystique and the soldiers using the drug in the final battle, I'll file that under the same rules that allows prison guards to use deadly force to prevent escapes - if you can legally and morally kill an escapee to prevent him from escaping, you damn sure can justify stripping him of superhuman powers but leaving him alive.

 

You people certainly are taking some interesting twists in logic to condemn a practice which merely makes a person normal as opposed to killing him.

 

First of all what people, seem to be primarily condemning is the idea of using the "cure" preemptively. Using it on an imprisoned mutant before the mutant makes an escape attempt, so as to make it easier to contain the mutant.

 

As far as "merely makes a person normal as opposed to killing him," we as a society have seemed to come to a conclusion that some things are worse than death. So we maintain the death penalty as an acceptable punishment in some parts of the country, but have banned other punishments like flogging, whipping, dismemberment, involuntary experimentation, and branding to name a few.

 

Edit: I believe this is the quote people are reacting to:

 

As far as the moving cells' date=' they stated the purpose of that was to make it impossible for Magneto to track down captured mutants by being constantly on the move. Why they didn't just inject the bad guys with the anti-mutant drug and incarcerate them in ordinary maximum security prisons escapes me, but I suppose that's part of the laws of comic book universes.[/quote']

[wagnern]

Re: x3

 

Ok Xmen one and two made me Rabid to play a Champions game, you know, chewing on the book as I made charictors rabid. but this movie while goodish did not.

 

I do appriciate it when they make the heroes pay for their vitrory but at the interest rates they payed they could have gone to a 'payday loans' place and been abused less.

 

I know Magnito is overcofident, but my god of evil from the second movie would not mess with a rampaging insane goddess of distruction unless he had some plan. (ok, if the B$%%^^ does not have a charictor sheet, you don't mess with her!!)

[Korvar]

Re: x3

 

I'd claim The Cure was not the same as execution, but its use on prisoners is right up there with kneecapping athletic prisoners to make it harder for them to escape.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: x3

 

I hated this movie. Though not on the level of Dardevil, Punisher or Electra for sheer craptasticness in recent Marvel movie history, it was horrible.

 

They butchered not one, but three or four classic comic book plot lines. They just put a bunch of plots into a blender and hit frappe, and still didn't manage to come up with three coherent acts. Poors set-ups, no character development, just clunky plodding from set piece to set piece. Characters appearing out of nowhere, doing their thing, and then disappearing. I am so irritated that I can't even form full sentences. I am like that guy on the bus you never want to sit next to: raving and frothing at the mouth.

 

The dialogue was laughable. Yes, there were people in the theater who were laughing out loud at the wooden clunkers and naked exposition falling out of these people's mouths. The acting was poor for the most part. Everyone except Hugh Jackman and Ian McKellan seemed just seemd to be tired of the whole excercise. I think that they might be tired, but their professionalism seemed to carry them through. I would also mention Patrick Stewart if he had actually had anything to do in this movie.

 

The special effects were good, except for Juggernaut's prosthetics. When will they finally figure it out. You cannot make a movie based solely on special effects.

 

Except for the effects , the movie was poorly filmed. The lighting was muddy. The framing of most of the shots made it hard to tell what was going on during important action scenes. Did any one else catch the sheer Golden Turkey worthy moment when three main charcters walk right up to the opposition, who would be right in front of them in the long shot (which was never shown) but seem to be surprised by the sudden appearance of the enemy? They are called master shots. They help people to follow the story. Hey, Ratner, use them sometimes.

 

AARGH!!

 

I'm goint to pretend that this movie doesn't exist so I can continue to enjoy the first two on DVD.

[Melkor]

Re: x3

 

Would someone who saw the part after the credits mind posting what happened here (as a spoiler), or shooting me an PM.

 

I missed it.

 

Also, have any of the media outlets mentioned talk of another X-Men trilogy ? I know there is going to be a Wolverine prequel, but that's all I have heard.

[Pyre-Archer]

Re: x3

 

I hated this movie. Though not on the level of Dardevil, Punisher or Electra for sheer sheer craptasticness in recent Marvel movie history, it was horrible.

 

{Snip assessment}

 

I'll probably go see it anyway, but thanks for the heads up, one and all.

 

To be honest, I'm not too comfortable with the whole 'magic power neutralizer' that seems to crop up in comics. Sometimes, its done well (PS 238 comes to mind). Usually, it's relegated to the same level as the moustache twirling villany that ties helpless beings to maglev rails. Cute the first time, then it gets old. Kind of like the whole 'World hates mutants but loves the Fantastic Four' routine. But that's another ill informed rant .

 

Apologies if this has already been expounded on by others more informed than me.

 

-Pyre Archer

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: x3

 

Their uniqueness? In Marvel mutants don't even begin to get their powers until they reach puberty' date=' which means their individuality and personality is already pretty well established before they get those powers. They can survive the loss of their powers, because [i']they've already lived without them for twelve or thirteen years.[/i]

 

They also lived those 12-13 years without significant portions of their cognitive function, a massive number of rights, or any expectation of having said abilities.

 

By this logic, it would be okay to diminish their ability to think and their rights as well - again, do we like the lobotomies?

 

A professional athlete who suffers an injury and can never compete in his sport again has certainly suffered a grievous loss, but he's still a person and still able to have a meaningful life. So too would a criminal mutant legally stripped of his powers (How meaningful his life would be in prison is a topic for another thread, but that would largely depend on the nature of his crimes. There's a big difference between murder and robbing banks non-violently.)

 

As for the guard zapping Mystique and the soldiers using the drug in the final battle, I'll file that under the same rules that allows prison guards to use deadly force to prevent escapes - if you can legally and morally kill an escapee to prevent him from escaping, you damn sure can justify stripping him of superhuman powers but leaving him alive.

 

You people certainly are taking some interesting twists in logic to condemn a practice which merely makes a person normal as opposed to killing him.

 

"Normal"?

 

Would you really be happy with flat average intellect, physical ability, and looks?

 

 

 

 

 

Using "The Cure" as a weapon under circumstances where it would be acceptable to kill is, incidently, different from using it in other times. Anyone opposed to the death penalty itself could quite easily argue it's unacceptable to use as a punishment while okaying it's use on those escaping/attacking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah, by the way, in a world where consensual application of The Cure lead to riots and the potential use led to a civil war of sorts... do you eally think forcing people to take it was going to be a net gain?

[Manic Typist]

Re: x3

 

Y'mean like myself? I was injured and could no longer compete. In fact my injuries due to sports continue to this day. I miss it and wish I'd been able to continue. I felt stripped of my right to try... But I made a wonderful life for myself anyway.

 

Are you an athlete? You seem to know allot. You should know that only the top 1% actually get where they're going. All of the other wannabes are forced to change their goals and try new things... It's not a voluntary thing. I'd bet that every ex-athlete you encounter would have LOVED to be a pro or go on to athletic success... But they aren't allowed to due to outside forces. And all the ones I know adjusted well and are happy despite their loss.

 

Congratulations on being a well adjusted individual, though I am sorry that you were denied further enjoyment of one of your passions.

 

To be honest, no I am not an athlete, so I must admit that my knowledge of many specifics is extremely limited (However, I do know that "a lot" is two words, but that's because I'm an English geek ).

 

However, how many athletes do you think LIE to themselves and convince themselves that they were "destined" to go pro? Also, how many lost their ability to play not because of an ACCIDENT, but because of someone's deliberate and malicious actions? That changes the perspective a little bit, no?

 

Finally: I would say a mutant is the equivalent of a pro athlete, or at least has a very real expectation of "going pro." They are special, after all. Therefore, the psychology of the situation is different, at least to my perspective.

 

Remember: most people fear or hate the mutants, and then they have their one strength, their one solace against all of this negative emotion... stripped of them?

 

Question: do you think people would accept mutants who had been cured, if they knew that the person was formerly a mutant? Interesting... How far does the bigotry extend?

[David Blue]

Re: x3

 

Question: do you think people would accept mutants who had been cured' date=' if they knew that the person was formerly a mutant? Interesting... How far does the bigotry extend?[/quote']My guess is: not so far that Raven Darkholme can't get a date because men know she used to be Mystique the mutant and would therefore have no interest in her. Ee-ew, a former mutant!? I don't think so.

 

By the way, put me down as a booster of X-Men: The Last Stand (2006). I was surprised it was so good. True it wasn't perfect, but none of the X-Men movies have been. It was a strong finish to a good series.