Good-by Speedster

[The Monster]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

Drain END strikes me as a fun idea. high SPD means high END use, unless they've bought everything with zero END cost - and even then, at zero END you suffer sertain effects. Other amusing and cheap Drains are INT and PRE, neither of which are commonly very high among speeders. If you can knock them into zero, all sorts of fun things start happening.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

Well, the 'teleport up' is still perfectly valid, even under your approach. Or, for flyers, teleported well within turn-mode of a wall.

 

As for the tunelling/down... yeah, if the GM allows you to use Tunneling against somebody as an attack in a power build, that's your basic effect. Though, as the GM, I'd want one heck of a justification for that and the other powers in your MPA suggestion.

 

Of course, as long as we're on the topic of ways to neutralize speedsters with UAA powers... or bricks... or just about anybody, really:

 

Curse of the Wandering Spirit: Desolidified, Usable as Attack (+1), 80 Active Points (neutralized by Density Increase or EDM, alternately, Power Defense)

 

Alternately, use an appropriate Transform, though that's a slower build.

[Saxondog]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

How about change environment. A whole big area covered with ice or oil or little cactus plants..... whatever. Would require some interpretation by the GM but it might be amusing.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

Drain END strikes me as a fun idea. high SPD means high END use' date=' unless they've bought everything with zero END cost - and even then, at zero END you suffer sertain effects.[/quote']

 

What "certain effects" are those?

[TheTemplar]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

How about change environment. A whole big area covered with ice or oil or little cactus plants..... whatever. Would require some interpretation by the GM but it might be amusing.

 

Excellent suggestion. Or, instead of leaving it up to the GM, just buy the Varying Combat Effects adder on your CE and figure out for yourself how best to create the desired in-game effect - be it a ice sheet or oil slick (DEX roll penalties, loss of CV's, loss of ground movement "s, etc.) or little cacti (Damage while in the AoE, loss of ground movement "s, etc) or anything else you can come up with.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

Well' date=' the 'teleport up' is still perfectly valid, even under your approach. Or, for flyers, teleported well within turn-mode of a wall.[/quote']

 

Yep. Both work well. Though with most campaign's Active Point limits, we're not going to get a lot of distance out of a UAA Teleport, unless the GM allows it to also be Megascaled (something I'd personally forbid).

 

As for the tunelling/down... yeah' date=' if the GM allows you to use Tunneling against somebody as an attack in a power build, that's your basic effect.[/quote']

 

I see the same problem with the Curse of the Wandering Spirit power. Namely that such a build would also need explicit GM approval.

 

Though' date=' as the GM, I'd want one heck of a justification for that and the other powers in your MPA suggestion.[/quote']

 

"My character is a Self-Willed Earth Elemental. The ground is his to command." Happy?

 

Of course, as long as we're on the topic of ways to neutralize speedsters with UAA powers... or bricks... or just about anybody, really:

 

Curse of the Wandering Spirit: Desolidified, Usable as Attack (+1), 80 Active Points (neutralized by Density Increase or EDM, alternately, Power Defense)

 

I've thought of the same thing. Though it is a no range attack to start. And if the Speedster moves out of line of sight, it shuts off. Not to mention that the character is paying 8 END per phase for this.

 

Or, one could just use (built from memory without a book):

 

Whoa!: 2D6 Drain DEX and SPEED (Two powers simultaneously; +1/2) - Penetrating(+1/2), Zero END(+1/2), Uncontrolled(Lasts 5 Minutes; +1/2) (60 Active Points)

 

And buy about 5-6 2 pt +1 OCV levels with it. Tag them with a few of these, and they're going *nowhere* fast.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

Yep. Both work well. Though with most campaign's Active Point limits' date=' we're not going to get a lot of distance out of a UAA Teleport, unless the GM allows it to also be Megascaled (something I'd personally forbid).[/quote']

 

Maybe not, but even what you can get is pretty nasty.

 

What Goes Up: 7" Teleport x8 NCM, Usable As Attack (not vs characters with Teleport), Ranged (+1 1/2, total) 60 AP. Total potential range: 56" straight up.

 

I think that's more than enough to do the job for most speedsters. If you can get the GM to let you go a couple AP over, then 5" Teleport, x16 NCM, total range of 80". More than enough, I'm sure.

 

I see the same problem with the Curse of the Wandering Spirit power. Namely that such a build would also need explicit GM approval.

 

Well, I don't see where it would except in the respect that any UAA power does. It's actually listed as an example in the rulebook. But yeah, any UAA power should get permission first, for obvious reasons.

 

"My character is a Self-Willed Earth Elemental. The ground is his to command." Happy?

 

That would work. Just that, for many characters, it wouldn't be nearly as easy to explain as a Teleport or Flight UAA. As an aside, if your GM doesn't want you using Flight UAA, then Telekinesis can do a remarkable job with most Speedsters, since they typically only

 

I've thought of the same thing. Though it is a no range attack to start. And if the Speedster moves out of line of sight, it shuts off. Not to mention that the character is paying 8 END per phase for this.

 

As the character should be for such a debilitating power. Though, to put it in as a cheaper, somewhat more stylish ability that doesn't violate AP limitations....

 

Curse of the Wandering Spirit, Improved: 1d6 Major Transform (Target into Target with Desolidification, 0 END, Always On, with Phys Lim: No Physical Body, All the Time, Greatly Debilitating, Healed by Satisfying Mage that Offense is Repaired). Must act against BODY +4 (-0), Uncontrollable (+1/2, Optional Advantage), Continuous (+1), Based on Ego Combat Value (+1), Only Usable on those who have offended the Mage (-0), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) Active Cost 52, Real Cost 35 (presumably lower as part of a Magical Multipower).

 

If BoECV is stripped out, you can bring it up to 1d6+1 without breaking standard AP limitations.

 

Or, one could just use (built from memory without a book):

 

Whoa!: 2D6 Drain DEX and SPEED (Two powers simultaneously; +1/2) - Penetrating(+1/2), Zero END(+1/2), Uncontrolled(Lasts 5 Minutes; +1/2) (60 Active Points)

 

And buy about 5-6 2 pt +1 OCV levels with it. Tag them with a few of these, and they're going *nowhere* fast.

 

That'd work rather nicely too, though you could probably up the drain to SPD and drop the DEX drain for greater ultimate effect. High DCV, granted, but if he only acts on Phase 12, well....

[rbm10101]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

i know alot may have changed from 4th to 5th rev but i thought that a change environment was only a change of environment and nothing else. Example variable power pool speed effects only no skill roll instant change say 20 points worth ( change environment ) move thing around, take things apart only, ( or if you are a stickler for the rules AE teleport usable on others to move stuff around, or a transform to go from put together to taken apart ( non-living only of course ) . While not doing damage per se all you would be doing is moving things around in the area of the change environment.

When did they change the YOU CANT DO DAMAGE with a change environment rule? or is it a damage power AE with some variable effect ? Wouldnt that take tons of modifiers and if you follow active point rules you would have a 20 point attack with +2 mods on it. doesnt seem all that effective. My old DM in 4th just used villians with tons of autofire and tons of +hit with that attack. BAM stunned speedster goes into building at mach 4 . HUGE hospital bill not to mention the getting sued part ....

 

Every good speedster i have every seen has had a variable power pool speed effects only. oh and a damage reduction with disad moveby/movethrough only.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

What Goes Up: 7" Teleport x8 NCM' date=' Usable As Attack (not vs characters with Teleport), Ranged (+1 1/2, total) 60 AP. Total potential range: 56" straight up.[/quote']

 

I'm fairly sure that UAA doesn't negate the mechanics of using a Non-Combat Multiple of a Movement Power. Namely, being at 0 OCV, 1/2 DCV, and in the case of Teleport, the attack taking an extra Phase. You *really* don't want to be at 1/2 DCV and not be able to do anything for a Phase when facing a speedster.

 

That would work. Just that' date=' for many characters, it wouldn't be nearly as easy to explain as a Teleport or Flight UAA. As an aside, if your GM doesn't want you using Flight UAA, then Telekinesis can do a remarkable job with most Speedsters, since they typically only [/quote']

 

Only... what? If I deduce correctly, you were going to point out that speedsters often don't have extra Strength. Making them easy to hold onto with TK (presuming you hit in the first place ).

 

Curse of the Wandering Spirit' date=' Improved: [/i']1d6 Major Transform (Target into Target with Desolidification, 0 END, Always On, with Phys Lim: No Physical Body, All the Time, Greatly Debilitating, Healed by Satisfying Mage that Offense is Repaired). Must act against BODY +4 (-0), Uncontrollable (+1/2, Optional Advantage), Continuous (+1), Based on Ego Combat Value (+1), Only Usable on those who have offended the Mage (-0), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) Active Cost 52, Real Cost 35 (presumably lower as part of a Magical Multipower).

 

If BoECV is stripped out, you can bring it up to 1d6+1 without breaking standard AP limitations.

 

Nice. I've never seen "Optional Advantage" before -- what's that mean? And for such a low level of dice, I'd personally add Penetrating, and still come in at 60 AP.

 

That'd work rather nicely too' date=' though you could probably up the drain to SPD and drop the DEX drain for greater ultimate effect. High DCV, granted, but if he only acts on Phase 12, well.... [/quote']

 

Don't forget that, if reduced to Zero Speed (or less), a character cannot move, is at DCV 0, has Hit Location mods for placed shots halved, can only take PP12 recoveries, drops all but his Persistent powers!

[SteveZilla]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

i know alot may have changed from 4th to 5th rev but i thought that a change environment was only a change of environment and nothing else.

 

Change Environment can do a good amount more in 5th ed. Or, one could possibly say that the 'effects' of what it could always do is now clearly defined.

 

Example variable power pool speed effects only no skill roll instant change say 20 points worth ( change environment ) move thing around' date=' take things apart only, ( or if you are a stickler for the rules AE teleport usable on others to move stuff around, or a transform to go from put together to taken apart ( non-living only of course ) . While not doing damage per se all you would be doing is moving things around in the area of the change environment.[/quote']

 

To just move stuff around (like cleaning a dirty room) can, since it involves no combat effects, is perfect for Change Environment. To take things apart (in a combat-relevant way) takes either Dispel or Transformation Attack. Putting it back together takes Transformation Attack (and likely some skill/knowledge on *how* to put it back together).

 

When did they change the YOU CANT DO DAMAGE with a change environment rule?

 

It changed with Fifth Edition. Though it's expensive per point (5 pts per single point), and carries the "GM must approve type of damage" warning. And also "Change Environment should not be as effective at causing damage or creating other effects as other Powers."

 

My old DM in 4th just used villains with tons of autofire and tons of +hit with that attack. BAM stunned speedster goes into building at mach 4 . HUGE hospital bill not to mention the getting sued part ....

 

IMO that sounds kinda munchkiny. It should be noted that the damage from separate shots from the same Autofire attack do not and cannot coordinate with each other to improve the chance of stunning the target. Each single autofire shot can still stun them if it does over their CON, of course.

 

Every good speedster i have every seen has had a variable power pool speed effects only.

 

Define "good", please.

 

And this presumes the GM allows the use of a VPP -- not all do. I believe a quite effective Speedster can be built with Multipowers and Elemental Controls -- no VPP needed. Admittedly, a VPP does make them more flexible. But VPPs have that effect for nearly any character.

 

oh and a damage reduction with disad moveby/movethrough only.

 

The limited Damage Reduction has to fit the rest of the character's F/X, of course.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

I'm fairly sure that UAA doesn't negate the mechanics of using a Non-Combat Multiple of a Movement Power. Namely' date=' being at 0 OCV, 1/2 DCV, and in the case of Teleport, the attack taking an extra Phase. You *really* don't want to be at 1/2 DCV and not be able to do anything for a Phase when facing a speedster. [/quote']

Point... though if your defenses are up to it (and by 'defenses' I mean 'the brick you're standing behind....' )

 

Only... what? If I deduce correctly, you were going to point out that speedsters often don't have extra Strength. Making them easy to hold onto with TK (presuming you hit in the first place ).

 

Actually, I meant "Speedsters usually only weigh as much as a normal person." It only takes 10 STR to pick them up, STR above that can be used to play 'whoopsie daisy' with them, chucking them up into the air and seeing where they go splat.

 

Nice. I've never seen "Optional Advantage" before -- what's that mean? And for such a low level of dice, I'd personally add Penetrating, and still come in at 60 AP.

If you care to use Penetrating. I prefer not to, for most things, but that's personal attitude.

 

And "Optional Advantage," in this case, is my way of writing it up with an advantage that some folks might want to use, and some folks might not. If you want to set it up as a "cast and forget" spell, then you use Uncontrollable. If you want it to be something you kinda have to concentrate on until it's over, then you wouldn't.

 

Don't forget that, if reduced to Zero Speed (or less), a character cannot move, is at DCV 0, has Hit Location mods for placed shots halved, can only take PP12 recoveries, drops all but his Persistent powers!

I just wasn't entirely sure if they had Speed 0 or not anymore, so yeah - putting more into Drain Speed is better than Drain Dex.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

Point... though if your defenses are up to it (and by 'defenses' I mean 'the brick you're standing behind....' )

Also, if you'd rather not risk the extra Phase, use Flight or, better yet, Leaping instead of Teleport.

 

Ah... Leaping UAA - cheaper than Flight, just as prone to massive head impacts....

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

If you're with a team and fighting a speedster without flight, you don't need a lot of Teleport Usable As Attack, even 2" would do it. I don't have 5ER, but my 5th Ed says, on p. 291: "... the falling character (who typically has a base DCV of 3)." This relates to grabbing a falling character, so the target is presumably willing, but even against a resisting target, I'd say that having nothing to stand on / push off / stabilize the speedster would put him at no higher than 1/2 DCV.

 

Now all that remains is for the teammates to hit the pinata.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

Excellent point, though I was thinking more along the lines of letting Your Friend Gravity do the dirty work for you, myself.

 

As I have found in previous games, even speedsters with flight can murder themselves with gravity.

 

Radar, Energy Projecting Flight speedster. Caught in a Sight Group blocking Entangle (a net) in mid-air. Took off in a random direction, doing a Move Through on the Entangle.

 

I gave his player every conceivable opportunity not to end up flying straight down... and he still did it. Right into the ground at full speed....

 

GMO, anybody?

 

The most embarrassing part? He'd just been GMO'd by Foxbat.

 

In a fight that he had started.

[Outsider]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

On the Teleport front, who cares where you teleport the speedster, so long as it is away from you! Buy your UAA, Continuous, AOE gate so it is several hexes across, then add "Personal Immunity" for a mere +1/4. You stand in the middle of the gate shooting out, and anyone who approaches you gets teleported away.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

Point... though if your defenses are up to it (and by 'defenses' I mean 'the brick you're standing behind....' )

 

Actually, I just found out that UAA completely ignores any Non Combat Multiple on a movment power. So buying NCMs and UAA is a waste of points. Better to just use Megascale!

 

Boooiiiinnggg!!!: Leaping 10" + UAA(+1), Ranged(+1/2) + Megascale(1"=10KM; +1/4)

 

27 Active & Real Points. Target leaps 100 KM horizontally, or 50 KM straight up.

 

Unless there's some ruling about UAA Megascale I am unaware of.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

Whoops, I missed that too.

 

Nasty build though, and easily justified, though I seriously doubt the GM would allow that one.

 

On the Telekinesis front, I wonder what happens to somebody running at 90 mph when you grab his collar?

[Haerandir]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

Depends how firmly his collar is attached...

[MilkmanDan]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

Unless there's some ruling about UAA Megascale I am unaware of.

I sincerely hope every GM has that ruling.

 

That'd have to be in the same category as "teleport inside a solid object".

[cturnitsa]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

"Ah Ha! Now I've got you, Mr. Go-Quick! I'll just activate my Gravity Transformation Bands, and you'll slow down like Molasses in January!"

 

All accomplished with a handly little change environment, a couple of inches radius, with a bunch of minuses to all sorts of movement types in the region. The special effect would be increased gravity.

[Saxondog]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

OK, just had this image pop into my head. Wait til the zippy one is at top speed and blind. Ecv, area effects, whatever you need to overcome his DCV. Can you just see some twit running at 500mph through any urban area suddenly go blind.

 

Ooops!! Who put that pole there... and that wall.... and that car.... ow ow ow ow

[freakboy6117]

Re: Good-by Speedster

 

blinds ok but better is inverting his vision he can still see but what he thinks he can see and the real world don't match up