New Player freaks the heck out of me.

[pointyman2000]

Hey guys,

 

Remember the guy who was making a Mage: the Ascension character in my Teen Champions game in the discussion about a Paradigm Reinforcement Satellite?

 

He's just submitted his character:

 

Vannon Blood

http://www.geocities.com/deviant_insomnia/Vanon_Blood.HTML

 

Vannon Blood's Multiform:

http://www.geocities.com/deviant_insomnia/Blood.HTML

 

Vannon Blood's Avatar:

http://www.geocities.com/deviant_insomnia/The_Entity.HTML

 

All I can say is this guy apparently sat down and really thought of his character.

 

I'm trying to see if there's a loophole around his combo in his build. You see, what he did was to string together all his powers to an Independent (-2), his Avatar.

 

The Avatar is built as a follower, so it could feasibly be taken away, assuming that it could be captured somehow. Considering that this is primarily a supers game, I'm stuck now trying to figure out a way to neutralize, or slow this guy down.

 

If all else fails, I'll probably just throw him into a myriad of awkward social situations.

 

the player's a nice guy, and will probably scale down if asked, but I have to admit, he's found a lot ways to fit points into the build, and I'm absolutely speechless.

 

Thankfully this guy wasn't the same guy with the Witching Cloak Vehicle

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Independent is, IMO, a very bad limitation. I would tell any player placing Independent on a power that, in my game:

 

(a) limitations WILL come up at some point - that's part of my job as GM

 

( the Independent limitation means you are making it my job to take these abilities away from you at some point, quite possibly permanently

 

Independent, to me, means you are borrowing extra character points and will some day have to pay them back with interest by losing the underlying powers, and all the points you paid for them.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

I only looked at the Avatar, and that just a glance.

 

He has things bought through independent (mortal body) and focus (OIF body). If it was ONE SPECIFIC body, like the body of Lenin, then I could see the Independent. However, it seems more like "focus of convenience" and he's not really understanding Independent.

 

If he can use any body, then just a focus of convenience (available body) limit, no Independent.

 

If it does end up being Independent, make sure to explain to him in detail that if the body gets taken away or disabled, poof, all those points gone, forever, finito. If he responds that there's no real way to take the body away...then not only is it not Independent, it's not much of a Focus either.

 

Edit: looked at the other sheets. Can you explain for the non-WW experts (ie me) what the connection is between the character and the Avatar, why his powers would be dependent on him, etc?

 

And there's a whole lot of -1 and -2 (!!!) limits for "not in direct sunlight". Seems rather excessive, unless most everything happens in daylight, outside, in flat, open terrain. Given that a lot of things happen inside, at night, and in situations he could argue are not direct sunlight ("No, I'm under this awning, my powers should work!") I'd suggest stripping those limits down dramatically.

[Zed-F]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Yeah, no. I agree with the others, Independent means it's a specific magic item that can be taken away permanently or even destroyed. It's a huge cost break for a reason.

 

I'd also say a lot of his other lims are not worth what he has them at. 'Not in direct sunlight' is not worth -1, IMO, but -1/2. Obviously a character like this will do his best to avoid direct sunlight, and this is generally possible in an urban environment.

 

Moreover, if he's a new player, he should try to focus on a simpler character. Building a really complex character can be fun, but managing it in combat when you're new to the system is another thing entirely.

[pointyman2000]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Thinking about it, it's probably enough to use a minor transform to "sever" the avatar's bond with the body of the mage. Or failing that, use a powerful Mind Control to stop him in his tracks.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

OK, I didn't read any of the character sheets. However, my starting point with this player would be to explain that limitations are EXPECTED to come up in the game, with a frequency and impact commensurate with their values. If you take "not in direct sunlight" at -1, that means somewhere around half the time, your character will be exposed to direct sunlight and unable to use those powers. It definitely doesn't mean your powers are half price and there will pretty much always be shadows for your character to skulk in and be able to use those powers.

 

I would advise you to change your character to remove most of these limitations. If you choose to keep them, I'm OK with that, but be aware that they will come up regularly, based on their values - that's me doing my job as GM, not screwing you over. If I don't enforce these limitations, I'm screwing over the players who bought their powers without limitations and paid full cost.

 

I'd also suggest a more experienced player look over his character to discuss this with him so he gets both perspectives. I suspect a player will also tell him just how useless that character will generally be, due to all those limitations.

[CBikle]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Just save yourself some headaches and nix the whole Independant limit on the avatar.

 

The character seems unplayable enough (wrong genre ?) as is.

[Kabluey]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

In my first Champions game, I had several players who wanted to take Independent. I just didn't allow it. When I explained that it could be permanently taken away, I was particularly amused at the response: "But no GM would really do that." My guess is, assuming your player correctly understands Independent, then that's what he's thinking too, in which case it's not a limitation.

[RDU Neil]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

OK, I didn't read any of the character sheets. However, my starting point with this player would be to explain that limitations are EXPECTED to come up in the game, with a frequency and impact commensurate with their values. If you take "not in direct sunlight" at -1, that means somewhere around half the time, your character will be exposed to direct sunlight and unable to use those powers. It definitely doesn't mean your powers are half price and there will pretty much always be shadows for your character to skulk in and be able to use those powers.

 

I would advise you to change your character to remove most of these limitations. If you choose to keep them, I'm OK with that, but be aware that they will come up regularly, based on their values - that's me doing my job as GM, not screwing you over. If I don't enforce these limitations, I'm screwing over the players who bought their powers without limitations and paid full cost.

 

I'd also suggest a more experienced player look over his character to discuss this with him so he gets both perspectives. I suspect a player will also tell him just how useless that character will generally be, due to all those limitations.

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Hugh Neilson again.

 

 

This is CRITICAL to effectively GMing in Hero. The play group MUST understand that "By taking a limitation on a character you are ASKING TO HAVE IT COME UP IN PLAY!"

 

Players don't tend to think this way. They tend to think, "Well, it makes sense for the character, saves me points... and it really shouldn't happen very often and I can actively avoid it most of the time." Players look at the price break... not the price they are PAYING for the point break.

 

The most important conversation a GM can have with a play group is "Points Matter." Point represent player control/effectiveness in a game. If you pay "full cost" for something, you are paying for a reliable, effective, story important part of the game. If you take Limitations to reduce the cost, you are ceding back story control and effectiveness to the GM. The more limitations you use the reduce the cost... the more the PLAYER IS ASKING TO HAVE CONTROL TAKEN AWAY in a game.

 

Some players are cool with this. They want to have limitations come up and role play out the hardships and drama that creates. Kudos to them.

 

Most don't approach it this way... hoping and planning to counter/avoid having to pay the piper in game, for the points they saved in construction.

 

I'd recommend that you have the conversation with all the players... explaining that you interpret limitation as an expecation for you to bring the limitations up in play. If the player doesn't want them to come up in play, they shouldn't take them.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Some players are cool with this. They want to have limitations come up and role play out the hardships and drama that creates. Kudos to them.

 

Yeah - this is the perfect approach. I personally look at limitations almost as Disads - they get me points, and give hooks for the GM to hang plots or plot elements on. I have a character with "OHID" and two secret IDs (a la Firestorm) - in my mind that is bascially asking the GM for "make it so they can't combine for some reason every now and again".

[David Johnston]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

It's a total load. Your avatar can't be taken away in Mage and passed around between other users, which is what Independant means.

[CourtFool]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

This sounds like a guy I almost ran a game for online recently. He bought a magical sword with Independent and then had most of his powers built on the sword. When I told him that he would eventually loose the sword, he accused me of being on a power trip and threatening him.

 

I smell munchkin.

 

I Smell Munchkin - Detect Munchkin (5 Active Points), Extra Time (1 Turn; -1¼), Only From Second Hand Account of Activities (-¼) (2 Active Points

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

I'm inclined to give a new player the benefit of the doubt and explain how the rules actually work before deciding he's a munchkin. That said, I wouldn't discount the possibility either.

[The Souljourner]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

This is what I would tell anyone who wanted to take Independant -

 

Limitations *must* come up in the game as a limiting factor, otherwise they are not limiting and thus not worth any points. The defining limiting factor of Independant is that you can lose the points permanently. Thus, by definition, when you take Independant, you are *guaranteed* to lose those points permanently, sometime in the campaign.... and you can bet it's not going to be after the last big boss fight of the campaign.

 

My advice to anyone taking independant on anything bigger than like 10 points: Don't. Take a universal focus instead. It's almost exactly the same thing in-game, but you'll never permanently lose it.

 

-Nate

[Valerious]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

I see a few problems with this character. First, I wouldn't accept the sunlight limitations as built. He's got -1s for losing half effectiveness in sunlight, and -2s for losing all effectiveness. If you look at the "Limited Powers Examples Table", it lists "only works in darkness" as -1/2. Note that these examples aren't losing half effectiveness or anything like that; that's only working in darkness. He's taking -1 for a much less restrictive limitation(one I'd allow -1/4 at the most), and -2 for essentially the same as the book recommends be -1/2. That just wouldn't fly in my campaign.

 

I'm also not sure I buy blood as an OIF. That means that somehow, some way, he has to be able to have blood "taken away" from him in order for this to be a valid limitation. That seems wrong to me. If he's a vampire whose powers are fueled by blood, that would be better modelled with a charges limitation, where he has to feed to replenish the charges. Or perhaps a dependency where his powers begin to lose effectiveness if he doesn't feed often enough. Just my opinion.

 

I have a hard time accepting his albino disadvantage as being not concealable. Concealable with major effort, I'd say.

 

I'd also like to emphasise this:

 

This is CRITICAL to effectively GMing in Hero. The play group MUST understand that "By taking a limitation on a character you are ASKING TO HAVE IT COME UP IN PLAY!"

 

We all know and live by the mantra "A limitation that doesn't limit the character isn't worth any bonus!" With each character one of my players gives me, we go over it together and talk about the limitations. I make sure that they know that they will come up(and the larger the limitation, the more frequently), and we talk about what they'd do in that situation. These talks have resulted in some players being redesigned, but I feel like it's the fair thing to do to make sure the players understand the implications of their choices.

 

I had one player who had built a power suit character who bought everything with OIF(Power Suit). We discussed what would happen when he lost that focus, and when all was said and done, he decided he didn't want to be so helpless and made some revisions. He's much happier with what he has now, even though it was slightly fewer "toys" in the end.

 

Another player gave me a character with some powers built with Independant. I explained that meant that at some point not only would that power be taken away, but that it could be used against him by a villain. In that case, he'd have the opportunity to recover it, but it would be no guarantee; if he missed his opportunity, it's entirely possible that it'd be lost forever and the points would be lost with it. He ultimately accepted that, and knowing and trusting him, I know he won't throw a fit when that situation occurs.

 

Limitations need to occur with frequency reflected by their value. The specific character we're discussing has limitations that I really don't think a player would enjoy in the end, as the value of his limitations dictate that he'll be without significant portions of his powers often.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Ask the player to describe what he wants in general, non-game terms and then design a legal and useful version of that character for them.

 

If the player wants to do it interactively, sitting down with you and working thru the design thats fine too.

 

If the player doesnt like either approach and can't produce a viable character on their own then don't bother arguing with them, just point them to the door.

[The Souljourner]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

I had one player who had built a power suit character who bought everything with OIF(Power Suit). We discussed what would happen when he lost that focus' date=' and when all was said and done, he decided he didn't want to be so helpless and made some revisions. He's much happier with what he has now, even though it was slightly fewer "toys" in the end.[/quote']

 

Heh, I made power suit character and she actually started the campaign with her suit having been stolen. And yes, without the suit, she's not much of a super - she's an 18 year old college frehsman with 30 intelligence and a bunch of great science and knowledge skills, and pretty much normal stats besides. I was totally fine by it - that's what happens to super suit people, their suit gets stolen.

 

-Nate

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

If this is a player new to HERO (which I doubt, given multiform, follower, etc.) then there might be a reason behind the -1 & -2 limits for "not in sunlight" and his thinking on disads in general...

 

The text that goes along with the limits in HD, etc. - "power loses half its effectiveness" "power loses almost all its effectiveness". It's possible he thinks that it means "when the situation arises, ...". So if he's in sunlight, his -1 powers work at half power, the -2 ones don't work at all...

[radioKAOS]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Agreed with what everyone else is telling you.

 

Independant is inappropriate for what he's trying to do, and it means that at some point he will lose it permanently.

 

Also, the 'not in sunlight' crap is crap. -1/2 maybe, and that's being generous. And keep in mind how often the action is going to happen during the day when he's useless.

 

Overall I would nix the concept, superheroes who can't show up half the time are not much fun to play, let alone GM.

[Alric]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Another thought. Followers aren't completely under the character's control. They can occasionally disobey, switch sides, or just not show up.

 

"Sorry Vannon, your Avatar was on a date last night and he didn't come home. Guess you'll have to do without him this session..."

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

I haven't looked at the build yet, but, in a manner similar to the way divine spellcasters are often done, I'd build the mage's magickal powers with a Limitation like, "Diminished When in Conflict With Avatar (-1/4 to -1/2)." The exact value is going to depend on how often you think this will come up and how severely you are going to enforce it. There may even be some minor Psychological Limitations to reflect the mage's paradigm and the extent to which his Avatar, "guides," him.

 

I wouldn't say an Avatar has to be built as a Follower. At most it is maybe a Contact, but I'm more inclined to say it is simply a plot device.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

I'm also not sure I buy blood as an OIF. That means that somehow' date=' some way, he has to be able to have blood "taken away" from him in order for this to be a valid limitation. That seems wrong to me. If he's a vampire whose powers are fueled by blood, that would be better modelled with a charges limitation, where he has to feed to replenish the charges. Or perhaps a dependency where his powers begin to lose effectiveness if he doesn't feed often enough. Just my opinion.[/quote']

 

Another approach would be to have all the powers take END from an END reserve, and link the Recovery of the reserve to obtaining blood, either by a limit on the recovery or by having the reserve recover only by a Transfer/Heal/Aid that requires blood to work.

 

If you're going for a superheroic game, a character that makes blood sacrifices to keep his powers seems generally inapproprate.

[CBikle]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Another thought. Followers aren't completely under the character's control. They can occasionally disobey, switch sides, or just not show up.

 

"Sorry Vannon, your Avatar was on a date last night and he didn't come home. Guess you'll have to do without him this session..."

 

Yeah, but at this point they're looking like DNPCs.

 

Personally, I'm from the school of thought that says that followers are controlled by the PCs who spent points for them.

 

As a GM, I already run the rest of the multiverse...

[OddHat]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Tell him "No." If he argues, explain that it's an abusive build that makes him too powerful compared to the other PCs and the challenges you had in mind for the campaign. If he still complains, decide if you really want to game with him. If the answer is no, thank him for his time and tell him to walk.

 

All of that said, he has put all of his powers in an Independant focus. As a player, he is saying "please take my character's powers away forever". So, take them. You have infinite points to play with, and you are the final court of appeal in all rules questions in your game; you can do what you want.

 

Just saying "no" is easier.

 

EDIT: The character is an unplayable mess. Decide how you want magic to work in your campaign, make a few sample characters, show them to the player, and go from there. As RDU, Hugh and others have pointed out, limitations are requests from player to GM: "Id like my character to have to deal with this." If it's on the sheet, it will come up in play.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

I wouldn't say an Avatar has to be built as a Follower. At most it is maybe a Contact' date=' but I'm more inclined to say it is simply a plot device.[/quote']

Heck, they sounds like SFX to me.

 

"Why do you have this Power?"

"My Avatar grants it to me."