Momentum and Superheroic special effects

[Blue]

This is not going to be an SAT question. Repeat, this is not an SAT question...

 

A vehicle is going westbound on a lawn at 36" of velocity. The villain, having magnetic special effect "telekinesis" powers, lifts the vehicle and turns it to face the heroes then sets it down. Do you:

a) Toss physics out the window and let it run at 36" of velocity in the opposit direction (East)?

Say that it is still going West due to momentum but allow for greater deceleration due to the wheels now spinning in the opposite direction?

c) Do some other effect?

 

I did "A", wanting to make this more superheroic and comical than anything else. After all, he could just as easily have set the vehicle down on top of someone, this was just vastly more fun for special effects.

[lemming]

Re: Momentum and Superheroic special effects

 

Originally posted by Blue

This is not going to be an SAT question. Repeat, this is not an SAT question...

If lifted and spun in place, I would of done B, but if they did a "slingshot" effect to turn it, then that could of been A

[TheEmerged]

The answer for me sounds like a copout, but it's the most accurate answer.

 

You didn't give me enough information on the vehicle and cirmcumstances.

 

Assuming the vehicle is a ground vehicle (thrust through traction), the villain grabs it in a straight targeting check if the TK STR is high enough. This allows him/her only to Hold, Lift, or "Throw" the vehicle. If the villain is trying to Hold the vehicle in place, a STR vs STR check is called for, with the 36" of speed figured into the vehicle's STR. Lifting would require a "STR roll" for the TK (penalized by the velocity) but no action.

 

To actually turn it around and set it back down, the villain is going to need a half-phase non-attack action -- and since the TK Grab counted as an attack action, the villain isn't going to have one of those until the beginning of his/her next phase. Once it lands its "thrust" kicks back in, and the driver will have to make Combat Driving roll(s) to get it back under control until it decellerates (8 hexes).

 

If the vehicle is getting its thrust from some other method -- a rocket car, perhaps? -- then the villain is going to have to overcome that speed in order to turn it around. I'd require a STR vs STR check for every "turn mode" the villain is trying to violate (two in this case, remember the first is free).

[zornwil]

In my games I would toss physics out the window and let fly. But I have never run a "hard realism" sort of game.

[Blue]

The vehicle (noted as "wheels spinning") was indeed a ground vehicle. It would, according to the chart, require a 35 STR to lift it. The TK was 60, and therefore sufficient.

 

The vehicle was going 36" (if I remember correctly) across a grass surface.

 

So it's a good point that the TK could likely stop the momentum in some cases. If it's strong enough to lift it the object's momentum is assumed be topped for mechanics purposes, even if it's fairly unrealistic. (A flying vehicle grabbed by TK still has forward momentum and all).

 

Given that the alternative was to actually drop the vehicle ON someone, everyone seemed to appreciate the drama of having to get out of it's way instead.

 

I had a couple of things where the players wanted the more "surreal" result, even though it worked against them. The other was when a character got 2 hexes from a basketball pole and hoop. The villain, who has an entangle if there are ferrous materials around, was just out of range (in my opinion) of wrapping it around the hero - by one hex. The players went, "What are you considering doing?". I told them and they all went. "Screw it. Go ahead."

 

Now that's a fun group of players.

[Talon]

If the villain had just wanted to hold the vehicle in place, no one would have thought twice about countering its forward velocity -- Hero doesn't generally worry about that.

 

I'd probably let the villain give the car a reversed velocity based on how far/fast he could throw it (whatever 25 Extra STR gives you). Seems like a fair compromise. Of course, if the campaign was goofier than the norm (at least my norm), then I might have just allowed the full revese, but I don't tend to play that way.

 

And of course, he can buy Flight/Running UAA, Linked to TK to settle the issue permanently.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Momentum and Superheroic special effects

 

Originally posted by Blue

A vehicle is going westbound on a lawn at 36" of velocity. The villain, having magnetic special effect "telekinesis" powers, lifts the vehicle and turns it to face the heroes then sets it down. Do you:

a) Toss physics out the window and let it run at 36" of velocity in the opposit direction (East)?

Say that it is still going West due to momentum but allow for greater deceleration due to the wheels now spinning in the opposite direction?

c) Do some other effect?

As with most of the game, it's a GM's call. But I'd tend to go with the third option, as something about halfway between the other two.

 

Y'see, one point that the other posters here seem to have missed is that the villain lifts the vehicle off the ground. This would instantly kill any westward momentum. (Murderer!) Then, when the vehicle is set down, it immediately starts to accelerate toward the east, subject to any modifiers the GM might impose for trying to accelerate on grassy soil using tires.

 

That gives you a mix of realism and cinematicism that, I think, provides the best of both.

[dbsousa]

Re: Re: Momentum and Superheroic special effects

 

one point that the other posters here seem to have missed is that the villain lifts the vehicle off the ground. This would instantly kill any westward momentum. (Murderer!)

 

Leaving the ground does not kill momentum. Otherwise those Duke Boys would be in an even bigger mess o' trouble...

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Re: Re: Momentum and Superheroic special effects

 

Originally posted by dbsousa

Leaving the ground does not kill momentum. Otherwise those Duke Boys would be in an even bigger mess o' trouble...

Leaving the ground does not kill momentum, but being lifted off the ground will tend to do so.

[Talon]

Being lifted off the ground only kills momentum if the Grab somehow magically does so.

 

If a stationary helicopter attached a big metal clamp to the car and lifted it, the car wouldn't lose it's momentum -- it would swing forward and up. Of course, in Hero most people don't think about retained velocity and wouldn't worry about it.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by Blue

Given that the alternative was to actually drop the vehicle ON someone, everyone seemed to appreciate the drama of having to get out of it's way instead.

 

 

I'd say that the correct answer to your original question is just what you did. Real world physics or not, it was a highly cinematic effect, and the players seemed to enjoy it. Isn't the first rule of gaming to have fun?

[Crimson Arrow]

Leaving the ground and being lifted from the ground don't sound much different to me.

 

Being lifted off the ground, HELD and TURNED on the other hand makes a lot of difference IMHO. If the momentum is travelling eastwards, how can the vehicle have westwards momentum? It's a long time since I studied physics, but I'd say the act of catching the vehicle and turning it round destroyed any MOMENTUM. What it did not do (in comic terms), is kill engine (or whatever powers the vehicle).

 

The vehicle has to get some traction on the ground before it can start moving again. Even though the engine was running, I don't think the vehicle would hit maximum speed immediately.

 

On the other hand, if the TK caused the vehicle to bank 180 degrees round, then it might preserve some of its momentum and regain top speed more quickly, as less momentum would be lost.

 

I suppose it's more cinematic/comic-book to let it keep full speed though!

[Agent X]

Assume that the magnetic guy killed momentum when the car was picked up and gave the car a "nudge" when the car was set down so it wouldn't lose velocity.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

*sighs*

 

60 STR TK, 35 STR Car. TK can move an object the distance equivalent to its extra strength in a running throw without letting the object go. Considering the vehicle's velocity, I would invert the rules for a Grab-By for adding the vehicle's velocity to its STR -- in this case, adding 7 STR (36" / 5 = 7.2 STR) to its effective strength.

 

This means that yon Magneto has an extra 18 STR on the moving car and can 'throw' it 14" -- or 7" vertically.

 

Presuming a grabbed vehicle is not 'automatically stopped' by a Grab (in this case it isn't 'Grabbed and Squeezed', it is 'Grabbed and Thrown'), it will, due to completely losing traction (and thus all self-powered methods of accelleration), eventually stop. It may decrease accelleration at 5" per 1" travelled, presuming there is sufficient resistance for it to do so; if it 'hits a wall', it would stop immediately. Considering that the force grabbing it wants it to continue moving, it may not lose any of its accelleration, and may simply have it redirected; superior STR should permit this. Fact is, it could even acquire a boost in speed; again, sufficient STR should permit this.

 

This is also where you should break the vehicle's Movement down into hexes/segment, as you want to know where the thing is/is going each segment of the action that follows.

 

I would therefore run your scenario as such: Magneto TK-Grabs the vehicle, lifting it and letting it zoom over his head; his next phase, he slingshots the thing around and gives it an extra boost (now having +25 STR, 20" of 'throwing' movement in addition to the vehicle's remaining velocity) to send it on its way. I'd have the vehicle slow by 5" per segment until Magneto gets to go again, which might drop its velocity to anywhere from 21" to the full 36" it was moving at -- depending on its speed.

 

Alternately: Magneto TK-Grabs the vehicle, using his extra strength as faux-flight on the object -- 2" up, 3" distance, three turns total, drop it back to the ground with an additional 7" accelleration remaining -- which means the vehicle goes barrelling the other way at 43" movement. Muahahahahaha. This is why you should not try to run Magneto over.

[Xandarr]

This relates to a house rule that I use for stopping moving vehicles. This is a staple of superhero comics; the hero has to stop a vehicle before it careens over a cliff or crashes into someone. We've all seen it before.

 

The way I do it is this: First of all, the hero's STR score must exceed that of the vehicle. Assuming that it does, the difference between the 2 scores is compared to the throwing chart in 5th Edition. However many inches the character has on that chart is the number of inches that the character can slow down the vehicle each phase, starting at the point of impact. Reduce the vehicles velocity first, then move both characters the amount that remains. Do the same on each of the vehicle's phases until the velocity is zero, and that's where the vehicle stops.

 

The nice thing about this method is that it's simple to look up, and you can even be a sneaky GM and figure the whole thing in advance so that you know exactly what hex the vehicle will stop. Then put that hex right next to the target for that added element of suspense. The player's don't know exactly where it will stop, and at first it might seem like the player isn't going to succeed, until that last phase of deceleration. Fun for all!

 

Try it, says I!

Steve