Modeling Leverage

[Gary]

For a really strong invulnerable brick like Juggernaut, a classic genre element would be to trap him in concrete and let it dry. This works because while he's strong enough to shatter the concrete, his muscles have no leverage and he can't get out. This also applies to other situations such as quicksand or being lifted in the air where the brick can't use his full Str.

 

If you use normal Hero environmental rules, Juggernaut would easily be able to break free.

 

What's the best way to model lack of leverage in game terms without penalizing Bricks too much?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

IIRC there is an ability in TUB that is a STR drain with the special effect of holding the opponent in such a way that they cannot use thier full STR. Something like that could work.

[Gary]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

IIRC there is an ability in TUB that is a STR drain with the special effect of holding the opponent in such a way that they cannot use thier full STR. Something like that could work.

 

It shouldn't be less effective vs Bricks with Power Defense, and it should be something possible as an environmental effect.

 

You can probably get something reasonably close with a Change Environment, but just imagine the cost necessary to hold someone with Juggernaut's Str!

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

I think I would build it as a Suppress vs. STR, NND - defense is Flight, Suppress only to negate STR "leverage". Maybe throw in Range and AoE too. This sidesteps the Power Def issue. If the character can fly, then they can use that ability to generate leverage.

 

_____________________________________________________________

Drained and blue

I bleed for you

You think its funny

But you're drowning in it too

- Alice in Chains

[Arkham]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

Works against Dex, not STR

 

That should give the benefit to those who are more agile rather than those who are simply Strong.

[OddHat]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

In most cases, Martial Grab does model leverage, so in HtH combat I'd just use that. With TK, just buy ranged Martial Arts.

 

The concrete Entangle is trickier. Off the top of my head as house rules:

 

1) If the GM declares that you don't have sufficient leverage, you get only your casual STR to break free. Obvious drawback: Players will attempt to use this on bricks constantly. Possible Solution offered in idea #2.

 

2) Let Entangle users buy Ranged Martial Maneuvers with their Entangles, reflecting skill and leverage. +4 DC = +1d6 worth of Entangle, Martial DIsarm alows one to disarm using an entangle, Martial Flash = entangle in sensory organs, Martial Grab requires breaking the Grab before using STR against the entangle, etc.

 

3) Rule that extra hexes of Entangle add to both DEF and BODY when someone is trying to break out from inside an Entangle, BODY only when outside. SFX is that the poor schlub trapped under tons of concrete just can't get the leverage to break out.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

2) Let Entangle users buy Ranged Martial Maneuvers with their Entangles' date=' reflecting skill and leverage. +4 DC = +1d6 worth of Entangle, Martial DIsarm alows one to disarm using an entangle, Martial Flash = entangle in sensory organs, Martial Grab requires breaking the Grab before using STR against the entangle, etc.[/quote']

 

Hmmm...a Disable element or Choke hold maneuver to cut off the target's air supply would also seem in genre.

[OddHat]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

Hmmm...a Disable element or Choke hold maneuver to cut off the target's air supply would also seem in genre.

 

Sure. The GM would have to consider which maneuvers could reasonably be used with the Entangle, but that's always the case with a weapon based or ranged martial art.

[zornwil]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

It shouldn't be less effective vs Bricks with Power Defense, and it should be something possible as an environmental effect.

 

You can probably get something reasonably close with a Change Environment, but just imagine the cost necessary to hold someone with Juggernaut's Str!

Why shouldn't it be less effective against bricks with PowDef? That's a general issue, what does PowD mean, how is it played out. If my PowD is simply lucky avoidance of unusual attacks, I shoulid get it. If it fights drains and such because it senses a loss of power, that doesn't sound bad, either.

[OddHat]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

Why shouldn't it be less effective against bricks with PowDef? That's a general issue' date=' what does PowD mean, how is it played out. If my PowD is simply lucky avoidance of unusual attacks, I shoulid get it. If it fights drains and such because it senses a loss of power, that doesn't sound bad, either.[/quote']

 

Which brings us back to the problem with special effects vs mechanics in alteration powers. A "Drain STR" can be mechanically the same whether you're shooting someone up with muscle relaxers, psychicly damping their nerve impulses, or casting a magic spell of weakness. Mechanically "Power Defense" defends against all three, but SFX wise that can be questionable. Then you get into endless arguments over what an appropriate SFX is for a given drain, when to use NND drains, etc, etc.

 

I'm not much of a fan of alteration powers in most cases. I tend to favor hit locations and the disabling rules for something like Transform: Sighted Person into Blind Person. Still, that only helps with a few possible Alteration effects.

[David Johnston]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

It shouldn't be less effective vs Bricks with Power Defense, and it should be something possible as an environmental effect.

 

You can probably get something reasonably close with a Change Environment, but just imagine the cost necessary to hold someone with Juggernaut's Str!

 

36 points.

 

That's what it takes to do a Change Environment that subtracts -12 off ground movement, trapping your victim in place, no matter how strong he is.

[Gary]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

In most cases, Martial Grab does model leverage, so in HtH combat I'd just use that. With TK, just buy ranged Martial Arts.

 

The concrete Entangle is trickier. Off the top of my head as house rules:

 

1) If the GM declares that you don't have sufficient leverage, you get only your casual STR to break free. Obvious drawback: Players will attempt to use this on bricks constantly. Possible Solution offered in idea #2.

 

2) Let Entangle users buy Ranged Martial Maneuvers with their Entangles, reflecting skill and leverage. +4 DC = +1d6 worth of Entangle, Martial DIsarm alows one to disarm using an entangle, Martial Flash = entangle in sensory organs, Martial Grab requires breaking the Grab before using STR against the entangle, etc.

 

3) Rule that extra hexes of Entangle add to both DEF and BODY when someone is trying to break out from inside an Entangle, BODY only when outside. SFX is that the poor schlub trapped under tons of concrete just can't get the leverage to break out.

 

I like this approach! Will rep you when I can.

[Gary]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

36 points.

 

That's what it takes to do a Change Environment that subtracts -12 off ground movement, trapping your victim in place, no matter how strong he is.

 

Well, you would need -12 to Running and probably -15 to -40 to Leap. Also, this wouldn't stop the character from pounding the ground or attacking other adjacent targets.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

How about Desolid, Usable As An Attack? That would leave the target unable to interact with the physical world, essentially what happens in this case. Not being able to move while in this state can be chalked up to the Special Effect of the attack.

 

The Defense against the attack would be being in a position to exert leverage against it, and possibly also enough Strength to overcome an Entangle of equivalent Active Points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

Well' date=' you would need -12 to Running and probably -15 to -40 to Leap. Also, this wouldn't stop the character from pounding the ground or attacking other adjacent targets.[/quote']

 

I've never seen Juggy leap, actually. The specific character may have a leaping-related disadvantage.

 

But here we get into some dramatic license. We see the "character is trapped" in the comics and think "That's cool" and "That's realistic". Now let's say that we do have a character with a power that, for a reasonable price, stops the Brick cold, much like Juggy was trapped for some time as the wet concrete hardened and dried. How playable would this be?

 

Now we have a character who can stop any non-flier (using the "UAA" approach with Flight as the defense) cold. We now will get the discussion of how unbalanced and unfair this effect is.

 

With that in mind, the effect SHOULD be expensive, shouldn't it? How much should it cost to build an attack that hits DCV 3 and reliably takes the target out of the combat? Perhals the CE that prevents running and leaping is the most appropriate approach.

 

Or we could build it as EDM UAA to "Dimension" where the character has no leverage and therefore can't move . That's much cheaper, of course, and a construct that virtually no one would allow precisely because it's too effective for its cost.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

How about Desolid, Usable As An Attack? That would leave the target unable to interact with the physical world, essentially what happens in this case. Not being able to move while in this state can be chalked up to the Special Effect of the attack.

 

The Defense against the attack would be being in a position to exert leverage against it, and possibly also enough Strength to overcome an Entangle of equivalent Active Points.

 

 

Unfortunately, this also leaves the target of, say, a telekinetic holding him in the air without leverage immune to most attacks targetting him.

[sbarron]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

Unfortunately' date=' this also leaves the target of, say, a telekinetic holding him in the air without leverage immune to most attacks targetting him.[/quote']Couldn't you just limit the Desolid to things that the character can use for leverage? I have no idea what that would be worth, however...

[OddHat]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

Couldn't you just limit the Desolid to things that the character can use for leverage? I have no idea what that would be worth' date=' however...[/quote']

 

Maybe Desolid, UAA, Does Not Protect Against Attacks, Can Not Pass Through Solid Objects or Small Spaces.

 

Still seems mechanically clunky to me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

Maybe Desolid, UAA, Does Not Protect Against Attacks, Can Not Pass Through Solid Objects or Small Spaces.

 

Still seems mechanically clunky to me.

 

I also don't like the idea of a UAA power which is more disadvantageous to the target being less expensive to purchase.

[OddHat]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

I also don't like the idea of a UAA power which is more disadvantageous to the target being less expensive to purchase.

 

Yup. You'd pretty much be able to turn off all attack powers for about 40 points.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

Probably the simplest way to do this would be how it's built for Gravitar, in Conquerors, Killers And Crooks: Flight UAA. Again, the Defense against it would be being able to apply leverage to use your Strength, probably also including having Flight yourself so that you can exert force when there's nothing solid to hold onto.

 

You could use the optional rule for Movement and Strength, where every 2" of Flight can become +1 point of Strength, to calculate how much Strength a trapped character would have to exert to escape. For the Juggy-in-concrete example (assuming you wanted to cost that out), make it 0 END, Persistant, AoE.

 

However, we are trying to model an effect that was used essentially as a plot device, to give Spider-Man a plausible way to defeat someone who's 'way beyond his power level. It may seem logical in terms of real-world physics, but (a) real-world physics are usually conveniently ignored in comics, ( some logical tactics simply aren't used when they'd impede the story, like incredibly strong characters just throwing non-flying opponents into orbit at the first opportunity - it's not unprecedented, but it is very rare. So I'm not sure that using an example like Spidey vs. Juggy is a useful precedent for a Power build.

 

BTW, didn't Juggernaut later dig himself out after the concrete became hard enough for him to break?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

BTW' date=' didn't Juggernaut later dig himself out after the concrete became hard enough for him to break? [/quote']

If you're talking about the incident I'm remembering, he said "It took me months to walk outa that mess!!"

 

In other words, the concrete didn't stop him... but it slowed him down to an almost undetectable crawl...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Modeling Leverage

 

Here's another approach: It's not that the victim no longer has his strength, but that he can't use his arms and legs to effectively exert that strength. So build it as a Drain/Suppress/or something of the *limbs*. No, don't base this on the cost of Extra Limbs, that would be way too cheap. Just because the *extra* limbs cost only 5 points for as many as you want, doesn't mean that the standard limbs are only worth 5. If you have no limbs at all, that's a much more than 5-point Physical Limitation. I'd call it "All the time, Total" (until you can get out somehow). So you'd need 25 points (IIRC) of effect from the Drain/Suppress to render all normal limbs useless. Then of course, you'd probably want to add slower return rate, maybe AE, etc. All this will make the effect as expensive as it should be.

 

Because the target still has his full STR, the GM can rule on exactly what he can do with it, without moving his limbs. For example, he can still isotonically flex his muscles a little, which could gradually do some damage to the concrete. As a GM, I might rule that he could exert half his STR (his "casual" STR) in this way. And there would be plenty of other ways out: Stretching, Extra Limbs, Shrinking, Shape Shifting, maybe Growth, and of course the usual EBs and RKAs.

 

If it's a "suspended in the air" type of lack of leverage, then the target can still make attacks by using limbs together: grab with one hand and punch with the other, grab and squeeze, clap both hands together on the target, etc.