Detect Minds and Barriers

[Dust Raven]

My players are talkative lately!

 

Anyway, the recent discussion concerns an Enhanced Sense I've allowed: Detect Minds. I've allowed this sense as part of the Mental Group and as a a non-sense group sense. What we were discussing is what stops it. Sight is stopped by opaque barriers, sound is stopped by nearby loud noises or soundproofed barriers, smell is stopped by overpowering odors or airtight barriers, etc. What stops Detect Minds?

 

As a default, I have it stopped by physical barriers, but that doesn't make much sense (as my players are pointing out, and I agree with them). The problem is that several characters, heroes and villains, have Detect Minds as a Targeting Sense. I want to avoid the game breaking mental sniper, which is really the only reason I have it stopped by physical barriers. What other options do I have?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

Mental Defense would seem to be one obvious option. Along with any other masking Powers which affect the Mental Sense group (Invisibility, Darkness, Images, Shape Shift). A Mental Defense Force Wall could conceivably block off a whole area.

 

Large crowds would be another possibility. Enough people generating psychic "background noise" could drown out any single mind. Along similar lines, an area or object where some extremely traumatic event has taken place may have a residual imprint from it that masks any other mind present.

 

You might also include certain materials which have traditional occult properties in folklore, such as silver or jade, to be effective deterrents.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

As a default - and you'll bear in mind Hero does not technically require something to stop the sense - I assume that whatever the sense detects stops the sense, so, as Lord Laiden suggests, a crowd would register as a mass of minds you could not see through - but you'd still know there were minds there. Of course if you happen to be in a deserted factory, you can zero the guy you are after no problemo.

 

However, my inclination is simply to say to the player - OK, you can detect minds: how does it work, and what can't you see through? Why should you do al the work.

 

Another way to limit it would be to say, for example, you can not use it with your eyes open OR you could just rule there are some minds that work differently and don't show up at all (I can see a whole load of interesting possibilities in tha last one, especially if you tell them there are limits but they don't know what they are yet )

 

Also with any 'new' power I allow I always make it clear tot he player that if the power does turn out to be unbalancing, they have to give it up and spend the points elsewhere.

[OddHat]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

I've allowed this. As per the concensus, you can't see through anything that thinks; crowds, individuals, animals or birds. Magical or psionic barriers should stop it as well.

 

And if it's not discriminatory, our sniper may not know who he's targetting.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

If you want to build N-ray vision you have to define something that you can't see through, I think it only reasonable that the player do the same with an equivalent mental power. Or else make them buy Clairsentience.

 

If you want to keep this from being abusive, let them target the person from behind a wall, but unless they have an Indirect attack they can't actually hurt the person. Unless they make a Mind Scan roll. Isn't that what Mind Scan is for after all?

 

________________________________________________

Drained and blue

I bleed for you

You think its funny

But you're drowning in it too.

- Alice in Chains

[Kenn]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

Force Wall, with the Blocks Sense adder/advantage (whichever it is), and Invisible Power Effects. The Sense being blocked is defined as Detect Minds. Invisible Power Efects is so the person having their Detect Minds ability blocked won't know that it's being blocked.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

Well, allowing Detect Minds is not exactly new, and it starting with an NPC Villain. When a player wanted it for their character (new player, haven't encountered this particular villain yet), I allowed it, but under the same conditions I had for the villain (no sniping because it couldn't sense through solid objects).

 

The idea of using other minds is a good one, and very logical. However, that doesn't really solve the problem. People with Mental Defense being harder to detect makes sense as well, but that causes problems of its own, not the least of which is a causality issue concerning being able to sense people who have Mental Defense in the past. Neither really solve the issue of of sniping. Are there additional options for stuff Detect Minds can't sense through? Increasing the Range Penalties specifically for Detect Minds maybe, making pure distance a "something" that's difficult to sense through?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

What stops Detect Minds?

Aluminum foil helmets, of course. I thought everybody knew that.

 

Seriously, you can just pick something. However you decide mental stuff works in your campaign world. Actually, aluminum is not a bad choice. You might let it be any metal that is an especially good conductor of electricity: aluminum, copper, silver, gold, maybe a few others. Or all metals, if you like.

 

Another possibility: Since normal sight can't see through physical objects, maybe Detect Minds (and other mental senses) can't see through energy: fire, electric fields, light sources, etc.

 

Yet another possibility: Detect Minds can't see through totally mindless things: television, bobbleheads, supermarket tabloids, Dane Cook, etc.

[Lucius]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

Electromagnetic fields.

 

That way you can say that the wiring in any normal modern building creates enough interference that you can't percieve through the walls.

 

I'd also say even a thin layer of any metal can foil it.

 

I'll have to think about it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Detect Palindromedary

[John T]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

Aluminum foil helmets' date=' of course. I thought everybody knew that.[/quote']No, no, no... those wire-frame pyramid hats!

 

Anyway, having been one of the players with whom the discussion originated, having mulled it over since then and seeing the discussion here:

 

I can definitely see distance being a factor, if we assume that brainwaves (presumably at least part of what the sense detects) become more diffuse with distance.

 

The primary emotional state of the target could introduce modifiers to the sense roll, from +3 or more for particularly strong emotions (rage, fear, etc) to -3 or less for calm, passive emotions (mild curiosity). Strong emotions might also partly mask other, more passive minds in the area. These emotions can't necessarily be detected, even with analyze on the sense. It's not, after all, Detect Emotions.

 

Crowds would certainly be a factor, perhaps in a way similar to, but more restricted than, Mind Scan.

 

Someone in a meditative state might be able to use their Meditation skill as a "stealth" roll against the sense.

 

The level and type of sentience could be a factor, with mostly negative modifiers based on how foreign a given mind is. It might be as difficult to detect the mind of a guppy as it would be to detect the mind of Cthulhu (not that you'd necessarily WANT to in either case).

 

Things that could be detected, depending on Discriminatory or Analyze: general mental "strength" (i.e. Intelligence, Ego, and to a lesser degree Presence), the general mental structure indicating the presence of Psychological Limitations, Berserks, etc (while not necessarily being specific), the presence of external influence (Mind Control, Mental Illusions).

 

That's about all that's crossed my mind since our discussion yesterday. I'll see if I can pester Mich into getting involved in the thread, since her character is the one that actually HAS the sense.

[John T]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

I'd also say even a thin layer of any metal can foil it.

Punning from the 40-yard line.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

So far I'm really liking the conductive metal and distance ideas. Oddly enough, there's a conductve metal in my campaign world that, when conducting electricity, provides Mental Defense (the metal is quintessium). So it's not a huge leap to say that quintessium, and other conductive metals/alloys, would block a Detect Minds and similiar mentalish detects, such as Detect Emotions, which another PC has.

 

Okay, so how does this sound? Large amounts of conductive metal worn around the head (something more than gold earrings, a foil hat or even a gold crown would work) conceal an individual from Detect Minds (and would need to be bought as a Power, but it's cheap because Detect Minds is not by default Targeting). Detect Minds cannot sense past large amounts of conductive metals. Simple wiring in your average building won't stop it, but an entire wall of wiring will, or a nearly solid wall with a lot of metal in it. Strong electromatnetic fields will block it as well, so standing near that transformer will hide you, and you can seem to fall of the face of the Earth mentally if you wander too close to a "high voltage" area.

 

In addition, Range Penalties start at 2" instead of 4".

 

Will that work?

[John T]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

So far I'm really liking the conductive metal and distance ideas. Oddly enough, there's a conductve metal in my campaign world that, when conducting electricity, provides Mental Defense (the metal is quintessium). So it's not a huge leap to say that quintessium, and other conductive metals/alloys, would block a Detect Minds and similiar mentalish detects, such as Detect Emotions, which another PC has.

 

Okay, so how does this sound? Large amounts of conductive metal worn around the head (something more than gold earrings, a foil hat or even a gold crown would work) conceal an individual from Detect Minds (and would need to be bought as a Power, but it's cheap because Detect Minds is not by default Targeting). Detect Minds cannot sense past large amounts of conductive metals. Simple wiring in your average building won't stop it, but an entire wall of wiring will, or a nearly solid wall with a lot of metal in it. Strong electromatnetic fields will block it as well, so standing near that transformer will hide you, and you can seem to fall of the face of the Earth mentally if you wander too close to a "high voltage" area.

 

In addition, Range Penalties start at 2" instead of 4".

 

Will that work?

Inasmuch as mental activity is electrochemical in nature, absolutely.

 

Well, either that or chartreuse spandex on fat people - that certainly stops MY brainwaves.

[OddHat]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

So far I'm really liking the conductive metal and distance ideas. Oddly enough, there's a conductve metal in my campaign world that, when conducting electricity, provides Mental Defense (the metal is quintessium). So it's not a huge leap to say that quintessium, and other conductive metals/alloys, would block a Detect Minds and similiar mentalish detects, such as Detect Emotions, which another PC has.

 

Okay, so how does this sound? Large amounts of conductive metal worn around the head (something more than gold earrings, a foil hat or even a gold crown would work) conceal an individual from Detect Minds (and would need to be bought as a Power, but it's cheap because Detect Minds is not by default Targeting). Detect Minds cannot sense past large amounts of conductive metals. Simple wiring in your average building won't stop it, but an entire wall of wiring will, or a nearly solid wall with a lot of metal in it. Strong electromatnetic fields will block it as well, so standing near that transformer will hide you, and you can seem to fall of the face of the Earth mentally if you wander too close to a "high voltage" area.

 

In addition, Range Penalties start at 2" instead of 4".

 

Will that work?

 

 

I'd be careful about nerfing the sense too far in the other direction. I wouldn't increase Range Penalties unless you're giving some points back for it, and if you're making the sense that sensitive to electrical wiring and equipment then it's going to be worthless in most ordinary office buildings, let alone villain bases. Your metal hats mean that every agent can run around invisible to this sense. At that point, you might as well just tell your players "No".

 

If you can only sense the mind of someone standing unprotected right in front of you, it's not worth any points.

 

As things stand, the sense is not Targetting and, unless I've missed something, not Discriminatory. Mental attacks made using it, if permitted at all, would be targetting using a non-targetting sense and so at 1/2 ECV, and you wouldn't know who you were shooting at. Make areas with a lot of electrical equipment "dark" from the point of view of someone with the sense (-4 to per rolls) and solid metal walls impossible to see through and you've done all you really need to keep the power in check.

 

YMMV.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

Well, allowing Detect Minds is not exactly new, and it starting with an NPC Villain. When a player wanted it for their character (new player, haven't encountered this particular villain yet), I allowed it, but under the same conditions I had for the villain (no sniping because it couldn't sense through solid objects).

 

The idea of using other minds is a good one, and very logical. However, that doesn't really solve the problem. People with Mental Defense being harder to detect makes sense as well, but that causes problems of its own, not the least of which is a causality issue concerning being able to sense people who have Mental Defense in the past. Neither really solve the issue of of sniping. Are there additional options for stuff Detect Minds can't sense through? Increasing the Range Penalties specifically for Detect Minds maybe, making pure distance a "something" that's difficult to sense through?

 

Well you could solve the sniping problem by simply not allowing targetting or a sim-sense to a targetting grroup.

 

To be honest I would not worry too much about sniping: it is not particularly heroic and if the player wants that kind of power, unless they are using an attack that can pass through intervening obstacled, they still need line of sight.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

Also snipers have a problem in a super-world: they are likely to be nowhere near the rest of the team, and backup, if someone does detect them and teleports over there

[OddHat]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

Also snipers have a problem in a super-world: they are likely to be nowhere near the rest of the team' date=' and backup, if someone does detect them and teleports over there [/quote']

 

Yup. As the GM you always have complete control of the battlefield. You can always kill off any character at any time for any reason; a little thing like having the sniping mentalist just happen to hide in the room also used for Sexually Crazed Elephant Storage is nothing. Or the floor drops away (watch out for that huge vat of acid, don't know why we put that thing there), or a troop of guards passes through the room, or a stray killing attack smashes through the wall and into the mentalist, or...

 

Really, a lone sniper is a pain buffet just waiting to open.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

Well, either that or chartreuse spandex on fat people - that certainly stops MY brainwaves.

 

And you've just stopped mine.

 

[Karmakaze]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

Don't Senses have a range limitation anyway?

 

I've done the Detect Minds as well (Discriminatory and Targeting, but not Analyze, so the mentalist could say "there are three men and two women in there" and determine general mental state). We did allow it to pass through walls, because her primary uses for it were (a) search and rescue ("there's still someone trapped in the basement!") and ( abush detection ("should an abandoned warehouse with the lights out have twenty people inside?").

 

The mental sniper being unbalanced didn't come up, although that may have been partially because of Delusion's personality. With the SFX I was using though, I could absolutely see a restriction along the lines of "the more people there are, the less detail can be discerned" with Targeting as one of the first details to go.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

I'd be careful about nerfing the sense too far in the other direction. I wouldn't increase Range Penalties unless you're giving some points back for it, and if you're making the sense that sensitive to electrical wiring and equipment then it's going to be worthless in most ordinary office buildings, let alone villain bases. Your metal hats mean that every agent can run around invisible to this sense. At that point, you might as well just tell your players "No".

 

If you can only sense the mind of someone standing unprotected right in front of you, it's not worth any points.

 

As things stand, the sense is not Targetting and, unless I've missed something, not Discriminatory. Mental attacks made using it, if permitted at all, would be targetting using a non-targetting sense and so at 1/2 ECV, and you wouldn't know who you were shooting at. Make areas with a lot of electrical equipment "dark" from the point of view of someone with the sense (-4 to per rolls) and solid metal walls impossible to see through and you've done all you really need to keep the power in check.

 

YMMV.

As I stated, if someone wants to be invisible to Detect Minds by wearing a metal helmet, they need to buy Invisibility. Nothing nerfed there. As for wiring and other metals, there's simply not enough of that present in the campaign to offer suitable barriers; at least to compare with senses like Sight or Smell. The primary 'barrier' would be distance, which the increased RMod simulates. If that's too much of a penalty, I'm open to suggestions for other alternatives.

 

Well you could solve the sniping problem by simply not allowing targetting or a sim-sense to a targetting grroup.

 

To be honest I would not worry too much about sniping: it is not particularly heroic and if the player wants that kind of power, unless they are using an attack that can pass through intervening obstacled, they still need line of sight.

I've already allowed Targeting. Two of the villains has it, and one PC. Other characters have it without Targeting however. As for heroism, I'm more worried about the two villains being snipers, creating a situation where the heroes become victims.

[OddHat]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

The primary 'barrier' would be distance' date=' which the increased RMod simulates. If that's too much of a penalty, I'm open to suggestions for other alternatives.[/quote']

 

I'd go for "dark" and "noisy" conditions, based off of sight and hearing PER roll penalties. Make a computer room or a large crowd "noisy" to the sense, with a -2 to -6 to the PER roll. Add on regular range penalties, and you'll get a smoother curve of utility, closer to other senses.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

As I stated, if someone wants to be invisible to Detect Minds by wearing a metal helmet, they need to buy Invisibility. Nothing nerfed there. As for wiring and other metals, there's simply not enough of that present in the campaign to offer suitable barriers; at least to compare with senses like Sight or Smell. The primary 'barrier' would be distance, which the increased RMod simulates. If that's too much of a penalty, I'm open to suggestions for other alternatives.

 

 

I've already allowed Targeting. Two of the villains has it, and one PC. Other characters have it without Targeting however. As for heroism, I'm more worried about the two villains being snipers, creating a situation where the heroes become victims.

 

Well, two things occur:

 

1. If PCs have it then the villains sniping will be less of a problem because they won't be effectviely invisible.

 

2. Assuming you are the GM, PCs getting sniped is only going to come up if it is dramatically appropriate to do so. I mean, sniping is perfectly possible whether you have mental powers or not - a properly silenced weapon with a good telescopic sight and you can pick off the PCs whenever you want - but you don't.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

The primary emotional state of the target could introduce modifiers to the sense roll, from +3 or more for particularly strong emotions (rage, fear, etc) to -3 or less for calm, passive emotions (mild curiosity). Strong emotions might also partly mask other, more passive minds in the area. These emotions can't necessarily be detected, even with analyze on the sense. It's not, after all, Detect Emotions.

...

Someone in a meditative state might be able to use their Meditation skill as a "stealth" roll against the sense.

Yes, that's another good possibility: the state of the mind being detected. And it doesn't have to be emotionally based only. It could be that an active mind (someone thinking very hard) is easy to detect, while an inactive mind (someone sleeping or watching TV or just vegging out) would be harder to detect. And yes, a character could consciously choose to let his mind go "blank" in order to try to avoid detection.

 

"Clear your mind of feelings. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor."

 

Another thought: depending on the type of campaign and how the power works, the presense of nearby AI's might also interfere with mind detection. Or perhaps even just ordinary computers. The extra thought processes going on (even though they're artificial) may create extra background noise that disrupts the detect. This could help to hide the arch-villian while he's in his lab with his AI doomsday machine.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

You might even want to introduce a mental stealth skill - the ability to think background thoughts that do not make you show up on the detect minds sense unless you are specifically being 'looked at'

[Dust Raven]

Re: Detect Minds and Barriers

 

You might even want to introduce a mental stealth skill - the ability to think background thoughts that do not make you show up on the detect minds sense unless you are specifically being 'looked at'

I've already introduced it. I'm using the Veil, Cloak and... damn, I forgot the name of the other one... anyway, it's the three mental Skills from the Ultimate Mentalist 4th Edition. They are mental versions of Concealment, Disguise and Stealth.