A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

[Balabanto]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

What kind of campaign do you run where Destroyer's base intelligence isn't Superhuman? Consider that the maximum for a normal human is 20. That means that Destroyer operates on a thought process so alien to the human brain that he is eight times as smart, at least, as a normal.

 

Second, if you have charges, and focus, the triggered force wall is perfectly acceptable...FOR A MASTER VILLAIN LEVEL CHARACTER. The level of cheese allowable to such a character is far higher than that for any available PC in the game, because he HAS to fight multiple PCs at once.

 

Second, let's look at that 60 Presence. REALLY look at it. Okay. It's phase 12. Destroyer launches this massive, horrible, incredible MPA at 3 PC's because he can. He jacks the end cost up all the way and doesn't care. Ready? Here's why.

 

Destroyer is a villain the GM should practice the personality of if you choose to use him. The first soliloquy out of his mouth should go something like this. Presence Attack after he goes. Extremely Good Soliloquy. Extremely Violent Action. -1d6 for being in combat. So, when you add in his reputation bonus, that's 23d6 against an average presence of 25. Even if his soliloquy is mediocre, he's rolling 20.

 

If anyone gets an action on phase 12 after that, you've got to be kidding.

[Korvar]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Were the heroes ever using team manoeuvres against Dr. D? Not just "hit him at the same time and roll our teamwork" ones, but people using their powers creatively together? Strike Force, I'm pretty sure, had some examples of that.

 

In fact, on page 20: a teleporter ports the victim and a high-speed flier up Very High. The flier then zooms towards the ground as fast as possible. The teleporter then ports themselves and the flier away, leaving the victim to hit the ground at high speed.

 

That kind of synergy might be something that would allow a team to take on Dr. D.

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Yeah, but really, consider for a second who was sent to take him on last time he appeared in canon. Granted, that was versus his Destruaga II plot, so not just him personally, but the actually superheroes who made a run at him personally were probably a cherry-picked Who's Who of herodom.

[Cardinal]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

What kind of campaign do you run where Destroyer's base intelligence isn't Superhuman? Consider that the maximum for a normal human is 20. That means that Destroyer operates on a thought process so alien to the human brain that he is eight times as smart' date=' at least, as a normal. [/quote']

 

If you are using the Champions Universe I think you might be wrong. I don't have my book in front of me, but my memory is that physical stats are superhuman at 30 and mental ones are superhuman at something like 50. That means that 35 is very very smart, but not so intelligent as to be alien and prescient.

 

Your original comment came about in response to a couple of people's comment's that Dr. D would not know ahead of time to have certain gadgets for a Though Experiment that contends no prior knowledge. You comment carries more weight if Dr. D is sitting in his throne room watching the Sentinels and Justice Squadron coming at him through his CCTV system. More targeted gadgets in that context do make more sense.

 

Second' date=' if you have charges, and focus, the triggered force wall is perfectly acceptable...FOR A MASTER VILLAIN LEVEL CHARACTER. The level of cheese allowable to such a character is far higher than that for any available PC in the game, because he HAS to fight multiple PCs at once. [/quote']

 

I am not sure if I agree with that analysis. I expect a consistent level of cheese between constructs. To overcome multiple PCs at once, the GM resorts to the age old practice of AS MANY POINTS AS THEY WANT. In short, you make the villain more powerful, you don't abuse the rules.

 

Second, let's look at that 60 Presence. REALLY look at it. Okay. It's phase 12. Destroyer launches this massive, horrible, incredible MPA at 3 PC's because he can. He jacks the end cost up all the way and doesn't care. Ready? Here's why.

 

Destroyer is a villain the GM should practice the personality of if you choose to use him. The first soliloquy out of his mouth should go something like this. Presence Attack after he goes. Extremely Good Soliloquy. Extremely Violent Action. -1d6 for being in combat. So, when you add in his reputation bonus, that's 23d6 against an average presence of 25. Even if his soliloquy is mediocre, he's rolling 20.

 

If anyone gets an action on phase 12 after that, you've got to be kidding.

This is actually exactly what Kirby did in his battle between Dr. D and his mixed team. Everyone, and I mean everyone, absolutely soiled themselves. Dr. D was able to get a breather (after using end like crazy) and act. Eventually people were able to recover and take the fight to him.

[Kirby]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

What kind of campaign do you run where Destroyer's base intelligence isn't Superhuman? Consider that the maximum for a normal human is 20.

One that follows the rules and standards of the Champions Universe. You should try it. While it's apparent rules don't apply to you' date=' try looking on page 58 of [i']Champions[/i]. INT 21-50 is Legendary. INT 51+ is Superhuman. So, by following the Champions Universe Characterstics Standards, Destroyer doesn't have Superhuman Intelligence.

 

Second' date=' if you have charges, and focus, the triggered force wall is perfectly acceptable...FOR A MASTER VILLAIN LEVEL CHARACTER. The level of cheese allowable to such a character is far higher than that for any available PC in the game, because he HAS to fight multiple PCs at once.[/quote']Built on 2,516 character points, Destroyer doesn't need "cheese" (aka rule abuse).

 

Second' date=' let's look at that 60 Presence. REALLY look at it. Okay. It's phase 12. Destroyer launches this massive, horrible, incredible MPA at 3 PC's because he can.[/quote']I'm sure you don't let this rule apply to you, but a MPA must be used against the same target. Even if you have him spreading the attack, he loses 1 DC per hex spread, so the damage should be spread by at least 4DC, reducing it's impressiveness unless you're forcing the PCs to stand next to each other.

 

The first soliloquy out of his mouth should go something like this. Presence Attack after he goes. Extremely Good Soliloquy. Extremely Violent Action. -1d6 for being in combat. So' date=' when you add in his reputation bonus, that's 23d6 against an average presence of 25. Even if his soliloquy is mediocre, he's rolling 20.[/quote']In the fight I ran (fairly; no abusive builds, no fudge rolling), when Destroyer killed a Slick equivalent (MPA: 13Body 65Stun; 36B 180S; 21B 84S) made his Presence Attack, he rolled 25 Body 81 Stun for 81 PRE.

 

What did Destroyer do with this while the PCs took cover and NPCs lost a phase? He took a Recovery? Why? Because Destroyer had been hit by every NPC (once, if not twice) previously, including a called shot to the head for 23 Body, 79 Stun before multipliers.

 

Simply because Destroyer may have an uber build, doesn't mean he's unbeatable. You just need tactics and teamwork if you have the right power level.

[Kirby]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Anklyosaur was the guy in battle armor. He has a DEX-based 7 OCV' date=' +2 w/all Combat, +3 w/Ranged attacks and +1 with his Grenade Launcher MP, so even as listed (I only moved his Speed from 4 to 6 and gave him Teamwork), he has 13 OCV. I believe he's the one that did a called shot to Destroyer's head with a 3d6 RKA and did 5x on STUN roller. IIRC, that was right after D fell on his tea kettle.[/quote']I looked back at the thread. Firewing (the Ice/Diamond lady) actually made the called shot rolling 23 Body 79 Stun.

[Cardinal]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Were the heroes ever using team manoeuvres against Dr. D? Not just "hit him at the same time and roll our teamwork" ones, but people using their powers creatively together? Strike Force, I'm pretty sure, had some examples of that.

 

In fact, on page 20: a teleporter ports the victim and a high-speed flier up Very High. The flier then zooms towards the ground as fast as possible. The teleporter then ports themselves and the flier away, leaving the victim to hit the ground at high speed.

 

That kind of synergy might be something that would allow a team to take on Dr. D.

 

In the particular showdown I ran, I tried to have the team work together. Primarily this was in the form of Teamwork Skill and coordinated attacks, set up by Diadem freezing Dr. D in place with her mental entangle.

 

I didn't see any particular synergies for this fight that would work better because Dr. D's complete defenses (Def, Power Def, Flash Def, tons of targeting senses, etc.) made most of Sentinel's funky attacks (darkness, flash, NNDs, etc.) absolutely useless. Probably the best tactic that I did not use would have been for Black Rose to take the entire battle to Lythreum.

 

However, in fairness, I was also pretty limited in the funkiness from Dr. D. Only 1 or 2 MPAs. I didn't use flight or str to prevent KB (mainly because I didn't want to suffer the DCV penalty).

[megaplayboy]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Well, DD has "human level intelligence" the same way that Leibniz or Da Vinci or Stephen Hawking has human level intelligence. He's well past even the "one in a million" level with a 35 INT. He's been around for years, and has a ton of levels, plus IIRC tactics, so it seems eminently reasonable that any scenario where he knows who he's facing, he's going to be loaded for bear and employ the most effective possible tactics for dealing with the situation.

My own suggestion for the evil-minded GM:

Ever read the Dragon Mountain module for AD&D?

[Balabanto]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

One that follows the rules and standards of the Champions Universe. You should try it. While it's apparent rules don't apply to you' date=' try looking on page 58 of [i']Champions[/i]. INT 21-50 is Legendary. INT 51+ is Superhuman. So, by following the Champions Universe Characterstics Standards, Destroyer doesn't have Superhuman Intelligence.

 

Then why have a disad entitled "Normal Characteristics Maxima" at all. This is why I don't use the CU, because the text of the scaling doesn't match the text of the game. It doesn't function.

 

Built on 2,516 character points, Destroyer doesn't need "cheese" (aka rule abuse).

 

I'm sure you don't let this rule apply to you, but a MPA must be used against the same target. Even if you have him spreading the attack, he loses 1 DC per hex spread, so the damage should be spread by at least 4DC, reducing it's impressiveness unless you're forcing the PCs to stand next to each other.

 

 

How is that even possible? Combat begins on phase 12. No one should be going before Doctor Destroyer. He presence attacks at the top of the phase, rolling around 70-80 PRE.

 

Everyone loses their action.

 

On his action, he drops his DCV to half, as it is now irrelevant. He takes three shots at three targets and spends 45 end, of which he will recover 30. No levels may be allocated because they cannot take actions to do so.

 

On phase 2, Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

On Phase 3, Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Destroyer has spent 105 end. On the other hand if he actually missed anyone, half the city behind the PC's is gone and they have failed as superheroes, so either way, he wins.

 

Second, how is anyone going before Doctor Destroyer, even with a DEX of 1.5 x his? The characters you use may suffer from DEX inflation. The idea behind an ubervillain like Doctor Destroyer is, to paraphrase the old school champions rules, "He's as strong as the brick, has more raw power than the energy projector, is as quick as the martial artist, and kicks the shrimp with the armor piercing attack around like a tin can."

 

Your accusations of cheese notwithstanding, a seemingly invincible archvillain should not crumple like a wet noodle, because you're artificially limiting the battle by not properly reading the combat rules.

 

As for the Normal Characteristic Maxima thing, you're using an artificial scaling chart to determine things instead of looking at them logically according to the Champions Scaling system, and that's fine, but if Normal Characteristic Maxima is 20, then what exactly does this mean? "I am only legendary if I have an INT higher than 20?" If you use that logic, Einstein is a peabrain. This is why I don't use the CU or their scaling system, because it's not consistent with the rules of the game and doesn't make sense according to the logarhythmic progression of the voodoo math. (And let's face it, Champions is nothing but voodoo math and roleplaying, it's just a question of what kind of voodoo math your GM is willing to allow.)

[Kirby]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

How is that even possible? Combat begins on phase 12. No one should be going before Doctor Destroyer.

Why? Destroyer isn't the only one with a 30 DEX. I know the rules don't mean anything to you (unless they can hamper the PCs), but when two people have the same DEX, it's called a roll-off.

 

Everyone loses their action.

Maybe you didn't read the part where everyone lost their action? Selective memory?

 

On his action' date=' he drops his DCV to half, as it is now irrelevant.[/quote']Again, you have a failure to read and comprehend English. Destroyer used his extra phase to take a Recovery because he had been whittled down.

 

On the other hand if he actually missed anyone' date=' half the city behind the PC's is gone and they have failed as superheroes, so either way, he wins.[/quote']You don't pay attention much, do you? Destroyer wasn't in a city. Destroyer didn't choose the place of the attack. Even if Destroyer's 20d6 Explosion attacked missed, it wouldn't level half a city block, much less half a city. I'm sure that fact escapes you because you'd prefer to punish PCs for existing.

 

Second' date=' how is anyone going before Doctor Destroyer, even with a DEX of 1.5 x his? The characters you use may suffer from DEX inflation.[/quote']If someone has a 31 DEX, they get to go before a 30 DEX. That's in the rules. You should read them (and follow them) some time.

 

 

Your accusations of cheese notwithstanding' date=' a seemingly invincible archvillain should not crumple like a wet noodle, because you're artificially limiting the battle by not properly reading the combat rules.[/quote']I find it ironic that you're accusing me of not reading the combat rules. You stated that someone with a 45 DEX shouldn't go before a 30 DEX.

 

As for the Normal Characteristic Maxima thing' date=' you're using an artificial scaling chart to determine things instead of looking at them logically according to the Champions Scaling system, and that's fine, but if Normal Characteristic Maxima is 20, then what exactly does this mean? "I am only legendary if I have an INT higher than 20?" If you use that logic, Einstein is a peabrain.[/quote']I think it's obvious who the pea brain is. Perhaps you don't understand the difference between Normal Characteristic Maxima and Human Maximum? NCM does NOT mean that's the limit for humans. (That's why it costs 2x as much CPs to go past the NCM if you have that disad.) Anyone with a decent intelligence and imagination realizes Einstein would have greater than a 20 INT.

 

The only "scaling" used in HERO is for Strength where +5 STR = 2x the STR before it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

What did Destroyer do with this while the PCs took cover and NPCs lost a phase? He took a Recovery? Why? Because Destroyer had been hit by every NPC (once' date=' if not twice) previously, including a called shot to the head for 23 Body, 79 Stun before multipliers.[/quote']

 

Since this sounds like you were using at least some of the Hit Location rules, I should point out that many people don't use those location multipliers for superheroic games, and in fact the rulebook recommends confining them to heroic-level games.

 

Obviously that turned out to be a factor in at least one attack by the heroes during your test fight. Did Destroyer take advantage of that option against any of the heroes?

[Kirby]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Well' date=' DD has "human level intelligence" the same way that Leibniz or Da Vinci or Stephen Hawking has human level intelligence. He's well past even the "one in a million" level with a 35 INT.[/quote']Yes, this is what makes his Intelligence legendary (along with Einstein and Galileo as well as those you mentioned).

 

He's been around for years' date=' and has a ton of levels, plus IIRC tactics, so it seems eminently reasonable that any scenario where he knows who he's facing, he's going to be loaded for bear and employ the most effective possible tactics for dealing with the situation.[/quote']You've hit upon a key element that I took into consideration, but seems to have been missed by someone else: Destroyer didn't 1) know who he was facing; 2) get to choose the time or battlefield.

 

Destroyer's ranks had been infiltrated by Masquerade. Over the course of time it was able to work its way up the ranks until it had access to all of Destroyer's bases. Masquerade sent this information to V'han's forces.

 

When the invasion began, V'han sent assault ships to each of Detroyer's bases. Once the invasion started, Masquerade sent a signal to V'han's forces that Destroyer was at its location (Vale of the Javangari). About 200 D-soldiers took to the field fighting Destroyer Agents. Any time a D-soldier was KO'd or killed, they were removed and replaced by another. An assault transport was sent down with 8 metas (an Extermination squad) to attack Destroyer. Destroyer's Black Talons were no match for 350 pt PCs (which actually surprised me - the BTs were dazed generally after one hit) and the Destroids turned out to be useless against a 350 pt who had AoE Electricity attacks.

 

One meta was "killed" simply to show Destroyer's threat level (and the body described to who his power level). After this, the entire combat was run with no fudging. Most, if not all, of the Extermination Squad attacking Destroyer had a 12- or better to hit him, before Teamwork. With the fair rolling, Destroyer managed to kill one and wound another, but he was being whittled down after each hit, including at least one successful called shot to the head after Destroyer had taken knock back.

[Cardinal]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Well' date=' DD has "human level intelligence" the same way that Leibniz or Da Vinci or Stephen Hawking has human level intelligence. He's well past even the "one in a million" level with a 35 INT. He's been around for years, and has a ton of levels, plus IIRC tactics, so it seems eminently reasonable that any scenario where he knows who he's facing, he's going to be loaded for bear and employ the most effective possible tactics for dealing with the situation. [/quote']

 

I absolutely agree with your analysis. Dr D should be able to exploit any known weakness and the most effective possible tactics in any situations where a PC runs into him. Normally it will be on his home turf with the deck stacked in his favor.

 

My main point was that the premise of this thread was a "meeting encounter" meaning that he does not know who he's facing. No personalized tricks up your sleeve, just the general ones you would have taking a stroll in the park.

 

My own suggestion for the evil-minded GM:

Ever read the Dragon Mountain module for AD&D?

 

Don't know it. Can you give a summary?

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

IMO, biggest problem the Sentinels have against Dr D is lack of major punch. You can entirely challenge and beat Dr Destroyer. . . but you first have to be able to inflict nontrivial Stun when you hit, which means you really need at a minimum 15d6 damage. Otherwise, it doesn't matter what your tactics are, or how willing to make sacrifice plays, you just aren't going to do much other than slowly die.

[Kirby]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Since this sounds like you were using at least some of the Hit Location rules' date=' I should point out that many people don't use those location multipliers for superheroic games, and in fact the rulebook recommends confining them to heroic-level games.[/quote']The rulebook doesn't recommend "confining" at all in this regard. However, I use almost all the optional maneuvers (such as Dive For Cover, Pulling a Punch, Rapid Fire, Sweep, etc.). If the PCs can use them, the NPCs can use them.

 

All the players are aware of the rules I use. What many people do or don't use isn't really relevant to the discussion, though. The part of playing the game by the rules (even optional ones) is.

 

Obviously that turned out to be a factor in at least one attack by the heroes during your test fight. Did Destroyer take advantage of that option against any of the heroes?

It wasn't a test fight, it was an in-game fight. And the NPCs weren't heroes (the PCs are the heroes), they were an Extermination Squad. Destroyer ordered Gigaton to fight the heroes and that was a tough fight for them.

 

As to the root of the question, no Destroyer didn't take advantage because he didn't have the opportunity (or skill) to do so. He has a base 10 DCV. His opponents had OCVs beginning at 11. As a reminder, Destroyer wasn't the only one with a 30 DEX nor was he the only one with an 8 SPEED. Destroyer did use his AoE attacks and RKAs efficiently, though.

 

I mentioned previously I thought Destroyer would win (and he ended up killing one NPC in the fight and severely wounding another). Once Destroyer could no longer use his Flight as KB resistance, the Extermination Squad put the hurt on. Again, with fair rolling, Destroyer went KO on phase 11.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

The rulebook doesn't recommend "confining" at all in this regard. However, I use almost all the optional maneuvers (such as Dive For Cover, Pulling a Punch, Rapid Fire, Sweep, etc.). If the PCs can use them, the NPCs can use them.

 

All the players are aware of the rules I use. What many people do or don't use isn't really relevant to the discussion, though. The part of playing the game by the rules (even optional ones) is.

 

No offense meant, Kirby. I just thought it relevant to point out that if Hit Locations had a significant impact on how the combat against Destroyer played out, that would not be typical of how Dr. D would fare in many combats using him, and so would reflect on the level of difficulty the Doc would generally pose to his opponents.

 

For the record, this is from FREd p. 276, regarding use of Hit Locations: "There are two ways to use Hit Location. First, GMs can just use the table to see where an attack hit the target, but not use the location to modify the damage taken. Thus, a blow to the head does the same amount of damage as a blow to the arm, and so forth. This gives combat some extra color, but does not actually affect it in the least. This is the recommended way to use Hit Locations in most Superheroic campaigns."

 

As to the root of the question' date=' no Destroyer didn't take advantage because he didn't have the opportunity (or skill) to do so. He has a base 10 DCV. His opponents had OCVs beginning at 11. As a reminder, Destroyer wasn't the only one with a 30 DEX nor was he the only one with an 8 SPEED. Destroyer did use his AoE attacks and RKAs efficiently, though.[/quote']

 

So DD's +4 Overall Skill Levels, and +4 with Ranged Combat, wouldn't have given him the skill to make a Placed Shot? His opponents' DCVs were that much better? Um... okay.

[megaplayboy]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

I absolutely agree with your analysis. Dr D should be able to exploit any known weakness and the most effective possible tactics in any situations where a PC runs into him. Normally it will be on his home turf with the deck stacked in his favor.

 

My main point was that the premise of this thread was a "meeting encounter" meaning that he does not know who he's facing. No personalized tricks up your sleeve, just the general ones you would have taking a stroll in the park.

 

 

 

Don't know it. Can you give a summary?

 

Dragon and army of kobolds take over dwarven city-in-a-mountain. PCs go in search of treasure. Kobolds use sneaky tactics to attrit and whittle down PCs, plus there are some surprises, like one kobold NPC is actually a polymorphed fire giant! The part that I was mainly alluding to, though, was that the first big fight with the dragon is actually against a polymorphed target buffed up to seem like the dragon. After the heroes have lost hit points and burned spells/charges against the faux boss, the real boss shows up.

 

Now, change the mountain to Destruga, the kobolds to agents, and the faux dragon to a faux Destroyer, and you have a nice little trap for high-powered heroes to fall into...

[Cardinal]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

The part that I was mainly alluding to, though, was that the first big fight with the dragon is actually against a polymorphed target buffed up to seem like the dragon. After the heroes have lost hit points and burned spells/charges against the faux boss, the real boss shows up.

 

Now, change the mountain to Destruga, the kobolds to agents, and the faux dragon to a faux Destroyer, and you have a nice little trap for high-powered heroes to fall into...

 

hehe... love it. It also gives you the ability to pull the "What's that escape pod? Oh no, Dr. D got away as we beat up his Robo-Duplicate" thing.

[Cardinal]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

IMO' date=' biggest problem the Sentinels have against Dr D is lack of major punch. You can entirely challenge and beat Dr Destroyer. . . but you first have to be able to inflict nontrivial Stun when you hit, which means you really need at a minimum 15d6 damage. Otherwise, it doesn't matter what your tactics are, or how willing to make sacrifice plays, you just aren't going to do much other than slowly die.[/quote']

 

Well put. I absolutely agree. The Sentinels are flexible but, with the exception of Diamond, have very low DCs.

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

By comparison, the Justice Squadron generally have better DCs.

 

Now, if you throw a team of, say, Diamond, Drifter, Tetsuronin, and Rashindar as the tip of the spear. . .

[Balabanto]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

The problem is that your assessment of the other stats is not correct for anyone who views things the way that the system was created by the framers, and Steven S. Long, while he's a great line developer, is not one of the framers.

 

The truth is that all the stats in Champions function on an exponential scale no matter how much you try to have them not do so, because doing so breaks every skill roll in the game, and rewards people for taking a skill roll on their powers.

 

So, I have to agree here that under YOUR interpetation, Kirby, that IS the way it works, even though you CAN spread and MPA at the same time, and pretty much make the combat take an entire phase.

 

And as to the soliloquy issue, you don't only get to soliloquy on your action, you can soliloquy on the top of your turn no matter what, because it's FREE. You don't just get to do it on your DEX.

 

But I prefer to believe that Steve Peterson and George MacDonald were a little smarter than many of the people in this discussion are giving them credit for being, and that Destroyer's brilliance was actually a function of his partial insanity, and being willing to take risks that most people wouldn't consider safe or sane.

[Dr Archeville]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

... his partial insanity' date=' and being willing to take risks that most people wouldn't consider safe or sane.[/quote']

Doesn't that describe most all superheroes & supervillains? (There are plenty of ways to use superpowers to safely & intelligently make a comfortable amount of money, without resorting to bank-robbing or hostage-taking.)

[Kirby]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

No offense meant' date=' Kirby. I just thought it relevant to point out that if Hit Locations had a significant impact on how the combat against Destroyer played out, that would not be typical of how Dr. D would fare in many combats using him, and so would reflect on the level of difficulty the Doc would generally pose to his opponents.[/quote']The one head shot was done after an entanglement on Dr. D. was done, so it had to go through 6 Def/7 Body before hitting him..

 

For the record' date=' this is from FREd p. 276, regarding use of Hit Locations: "There are two ways to use Hit Location. First, GMs can just use the table to see where an attack hit the target, but not use the location to modify the damage taken. Thus, a blow to the head does the same amount of damage as a blow to the arm, and so forth. This gives combat some extra color, but does not actually affect it in the least. This is the recommended way to use Hit Locations in most Superheroic campaigns."[/quote']Yes, I'm aware of what it states, which is how I knew it said "recommended" and not "confined." The two words have different meanings.

 

So DD's +4 Overall Skill Levels' date=' and +4 with Ranged Combat, wouldn't have given him the skill to make a Placed Shot? His opponents' DCVs were that much better? Um... okay.[/quote']You're also missing the other qualifier I put in: he didn't have the opportunity. Destroyer was up against six metas (Anklyosaur, Firewing, Grond, Holocaust, Mechassassin*, and Slick) who not only had Teamwork, but the Multiple Attacker Bonus going as well. Destroyer had neither.

 

Destroyer was facing Slick and Grond in HtH and the rest at range. Destroyer managed to kill Slick and do 9 Body to Grond. However, his two biggest problems were Firewing (DCV 10 or 12 w/OL) and Holocaust (DCV 9). A called shot would have required DD to hit DCV 20 or 17. Considering he had missed Firewing on a regular attack, a called shot would have only been inviting more disaster.

 

Called shots were only done on DD twice, one when he was entangled and one when he was either dazed or recovering. Holocaust managed a standard 20d6 attack to do 23 Body 78 Stun, so called shots weren't his only threat. I've skimmed through the combat, but I don't recall and didn't see any of the NPC Extermination Squad missing Destroyer.

 

Had DD done a called shot, he may have hit, but if he missed, he would have probably been taken out sooner.

 

*I originally thought Mechassassin was there, then thought he wasn't, but looking back over the combat, I see that he was there.

[Cardinal]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

By comparison, the Justice Squadron generally have better DCs.

 

Now, if you throw a team of, say, Diamond, Drifter, Tetsuronin, and Rashindar as the tip of the spear. . .

 

Nice. I would want to add another damage sponge like Brawler and another canon like Superstar, but that is a pretty hard to beat combo to start with.

 

Between all of the VPPs and huge DCs you are going to be able to get some nasty shots on target. Even without dipping into one of the many VPPs in the group, Rashindar can pull the mental entangle move on DD setting him up for the full on assault (with called shots targeting the head).

[Prestige]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Yes, this is what makes his Intelligence legendary (along with Einstein and Galileo as well as those you mentioned).

 

You've hit upon a key element that I took into consideration, but seems to have been missed by someone else: Destroyer didn't 1) know who he was facing; 2) get to choose the time or battlefield.

 

Um...if he is so smart why didn't he get out of there? I mean he has a free action to pretty much stop everyone in their tracks so he would basicaly have two action to get out of there. Surely he can come up with a escape plan to flee a combat going badly for him.