A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

[jkwleisemann]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Yeah - next time Destroyer decides to do something he's done before, I suspect it'll be "attack Millenium City," only with taking it over and continuing on through most of the rest of the US....

[Kirby]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Doctor Destroyer does have three big weaknesses that can be exploited by a team (not a collection of individuals).

 

1) He has no knockback resistance.

2) He does not have Acrobatics or Breakfall.

3) He does not have any Defense Maneuvers.

 

Surrounding him and using coordinating attacks will insure he's easier to hit as well as less mobile (which helps considering he's got 30" of flight).

 

On the flip side, Dr. D can use a FOUR style Multipower attack:

1) Primary Weapons Array

2) Secondary Weapons Array

3) VPP (sword is statted out)

4) 15 Def Force Wall (using it as an attack to surround an opponent).

 

A teleporter with ranged attacks could give him serious problems.

[incrdbil]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Sort of a side question--what do other GM's place in DD's gadget pool as a standard 'general load out'?

 

Mine generally addressed some of the above. Often included :A stabilization belt (KB resistance), an anti-grav module for his movement (position shift)--emergency shield (charges of various defense items from extra vs teleport/desol FF or Force Wall booster)FF to something boosting his damage reduction to 3/4, 1 charge per use) an emergency triggered escape teleporter, and emergency attribute booster, some combat drugs (triggereed Stun AID).

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Kirby- Sounds about right. Best move is to do something, anything, to put him on the ground, force him to eat either the CV penalty or the half action getting up.

 

incrdbl- Sounds about right. Of course, sticking all his supplemental defenses with Continuing Charges means there's a strong incentive to change up your attacks constantly, get him to trigger them all off.

 

The one shot megascale escape teleport is a must, though.

 

Versus, oh, the Sentinels, stuff he'd want: an extra Targetting Sense, a STR Aid, more Mental Defense, some kind of EDM retrieval mechanism to keep the fight from going to Lythraeum.

 

Versus the Justice Squadron, he still wants the STR Aid, extra Mental Defense and Power Defense, and probably a bunch of Stun and Body Heals to keep him up against whatever craziness the Drifter might use.

[Kirby]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Sort of a side question--what do other GM's place in DD's gadget pool as a standard 'general load out'?

In my campaign' date=' Dr. D. currently has sword because he's in the vicinity of the Vale of Javangari. He's also being attacked by an alien extermination squad, so he's put his sword to good use so far (the PCs have witnessed Destroyer use a 3 power MPA on an NPC, which ended up bringing said NPC (a copy of Slick from CKC) from 30 Stun and 10 Body to [b']-248 Stun[/b] and -40 Body (I used the Die Roller from HeroCentral -no fudging!). At least this was the weakest of them. Though, the NPC brick has been brought down 9 Body by Destroyer and is at -8 Stun currently.

[Peregrine]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Peregrine- Hey' date=' its not *exactly* the same thing. . . he had much better tech and bigger forces than before. [/quote']

 

Yeah, I still say he's n*cking futs.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Peregrine... if it took you *this* long to figure that out about the doctor, we need to dock your PER rolls.

[Cardinal]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

To follow up on something brought up in this thread, has anyone actually run a fight between Dr. Destroyer and either the Sentinels or Justice Squadron since May?

 

I play in the Herocentral game in which Kirby took down Dr. D with a cadre of villains that he informed us were reimaged versions of Firewing, Holocaust, Mechassassin, Grond, Slick and a couple of others. While there was a body count and it seemed that Firewing and Holocaust (two 900+ ptrs) pulled the most weight, it was not as close as I would have suspected.

 

I would be interested to hear the results if anyone tried something similar with the good guys.

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

I haven't played it out yet, but I figure the Justice Squadron, especially, has a major shot. Admittedly, alot of the gameplan boils down to "Block shots and make opennings for Drifter", but meh.

 

The Sentinels, comparatively lacking in firepower, have some more trouble.

[Balabanto]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

The problem is, no attack will get near Dr. Destroyer. He has enough power defense to stop most of the real cheese.

 

His gadget pool is devoted to a physical force wall that ignores energy and is hardened twice. All he has to do is drop his DCV by half, since no one can conceivably exceed the defense of the physical force wall, and fire energy bolts out while he runs uncontrolled, continuous missile deflection. He can rapid attack ranged 3 targets per round with 310 points of Multiple Power Attack, and have an AVLD vs. Lack of Weakness that he uses the rest of his gadget pool for.

 

No PC can survive this assault for very long, and he can use AOES which they can't missile deflect while doing this.

 

Destroyer drops 2-3 PCs a round. Combat will be over by phase 8.

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

He can't keep up the Force Wall and make attacks from any of his multipowers. At least, none of the damaging attacks.

[Kirby]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

The above is providing you don't use any tactics on the field of battle. As I've stated previously, Dr. Destroyer was beat in a no-fudge-rolls match in my campaign

 

Who was he up against? Modified versions of Anklyosaur and Grond (both increased to 6 SPD, Grond brought up 20 DEX, and given 50 PD/ED, but not on resistance defenses left the same), along with unmodified versions (aside from SFX) of Slick, Firewing, and Holocaust. Destroyer killed Slick and wounded Grond before Destroyer himself was KO'd. Gigaton was there at the start of the turn, but the PCs took his attention away from helping Destroyer (attacking the NPCs) for more than one or two phases.

 

Power Defense only works versus adjustment powers and there are many non-Life Support NNDs out there that he has no defense against.

 

As for the gadget pool set-up, Missile Deflection cannot have Continuous (MD is already a Constant power), and what -1/2 limitation did you give to each power? (Doesn't sound like any.) I find it amazing (and not in a good way) you'd give Dr. D. such a build. VPP is a STOP framework, with Missile Deflection as an ! Power and Uncontrolled as a STOP advantage. This build has abuse all over it.

 

As for the Force Wall, if it's Transparent for Destroyer, it's transparent for his enemies as well. And if Destroyer is at Half-DCV for his Rapid Fire, called shots against him are only 1/2 as difficult. And with Multiple Bonus attackers against him, the number of attacks he's hit by just go up, including head shots.

[Balabanto]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Yes, he can. It can IGNORE ENERGY ATTACKS. It's a piddling +1/2 Advantage. And charges cost no end. Just put the whole thing on a fuel charge.This is minor compared to some of the munchkin things people have put together. I could blow up the entire universe with Destroyer's gadget pool alone. Heck, I'll bet you money that I can do it and make the force wall infinitely accelerating, so that it slowly grows tougher as the combat goes on. Trigger is a wonderful advantage. Even if someone is faster than Destroyer, the thing still turns on.

 

Plus, the real purpose of the force wall, which is only one hex in size, is to lure the aforementioned teleporter inside it. Please come into hand to hand range of Doctor Destroyer with a big knockback wall behind you. That's not a character with super strength, usually. And even if you grab destroyer, so what? Whatever damage shield he has that day also on a trigger will make it go away. So then a PC has one shot and Destroyer has a hostage. "Fool, now I have your teleporter, and he's unconscious. Behold the folly of attacking Doctor Destroyer!" SNAP. Dead. Or, if you're more merciful. "Fool, I have your teleporter. But the one I make from his DNA will destroy you all! HAHAHHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!" Pop. Destroyer vanishes.

 

The thing you guys don't seem to understand is that Destroyer has a high enough intelligence that he will NEVER be unprepared. He has a strategy and a system for everything. Any character with an INT of 25+ should have thought processes so alien from humanity that except for psych lims, there's really no reason not to run this character the way you would run your favorite PC.

 

And he's powerful enough and built on enough points that he really should be unable to lose to anyone.

[Kirby]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Destroyer doesn't even have superhuman intelligence. And he's not the only one at his intelligence level. Destroyer's 90pt gadget pool also has a limitation that he can only change the powers in his lab, something that your infinite amount of abuse seems to ignore.

 

Destroyer lacks KB resistance (though I'm sure you've put that as a fueled triggered advantage in his gadget pool, along with his Precognition Crystal Ball that tells him just what to make for the day) so a half-teleport punch will knock him on his tea kettle. He has no Acrobatics or Breakfall, so two or three people whose purpose is to trip him up have their work cut out.

 

In my scenario, I had truly expected Destroyer to hold his own and have the PCs be the deciding factor (would they help Destroyer or V'han?). Destroyer was out before Turn 1 was over.

[Cardinal]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Yes' date=' he can. It can IGNORE ENERGY ATTACKS. It's a piddling +1/2 Advantage. And charges cost no end. Just put the whole thing on a fuel charge.This is minor compared to some of the munchkin things people have put together. I could blow up the entire universe with Destroyer's gadget pool alone. Heck, I'll bet you money that I can do it and make the force wall infinitely accelerating, so that it slowly grows tougher as the combat goes on. Trigger is a wonderful advantage. Even if someone is faster than Destroyer, the thing still turns on. [/quote']

 

This thread is distinct from the Munchkin Contest thread, so I don't think the question is what could one do with a 90 pt Gadget pool. Rather, the assumption is that he would have to make gadgets that conform to the standard rules of the campaign -- presumably including equal application of the GM's stance on the level of cheese acceptable by PCs. If the battle is a fiesta con queso, then all of a sudden Drifter could pursue some of the Margarita man techniques from the other thread (modified with penetrating or the like) and take down DD from afar.

 

Therefore, for the sake of this thought experiment I would presume that DD would only have on him a "standard load" of Gadgets (IIRC, this was original set up as a "Meeting Encounter").

 

I think it would be fair to assume that he would have his sword, an emergency teleporter (if only because the villain has to get away), and possibly one or more of the pregenerated devices listed on his build.

 

I agree with Metaphysician's thought that the Sentinels might be outclassed. Unless Black Rose takes the entire party to Lythrum, she is going to be a one shot casualty and not tremendously effective while awake (even her NND flash does not eliminate DD's radar and Sonar). Diamond has the potential to take a couple of shots -- even more if he can MD -- and might be able to dish a little damage. However, he would be quickly whittled down unless the rest of the team was able to step up. Diadem might be able to get a little past defenses while snipping, but is in deep trouble once targeted. Bravo is useless against dd's defenses. Dr. Vox and Proteus run into the same issue as Black Rose. They can do a little, but would be toast as soon as DD focused on them.

 

The Justice Squadron seems to stack up a little better.

Blink can actually do Body to DD and might, if he can hit him, reduce the effect of his FW and reduce his DCV for his teammates through judicious use of teleport UAA. Brawler will play his typical role of damage sponge, though might be in a bit of trouble because his DR for energy is only 25%. Flashover dishes a little more damage than her Sentinel colleagues, but will be only a small impact on DD. Superstar can play the role that Holocaust and Firewing did for Kirby and put some big numbers at DD's defenses. Over time they might be able to wear through. However, he might have trouble hitting unless lots of multiple attackers bonuses added up. Tomahawk might be able to dish a little damage to DD, but is basically a 1 shot knock out/potential casualty.

 

That leaves Drifter, the resident deux ex machina. If you enforce his dislike for using his entire pool on single items, it might make things tough. However, he could help protect/buff his friends and still come up with some attacks that would whittle down DD. In addition, his defenses are strong enough (espcially with a little extra magic shielding) that he can probably take a couple of hits. The only problem is that DD has a huge speed and dex advantage. If he succeeds at his KS: Superhuman world and targets Drifter first, a concentrated volley might knock drifter out of the game (and the universe) before he could bring his stuff to bear.

 

In the end, I still have to give advantage to DD, but agree with Meta that the Justice Squadron have at least a credible chance.

[Cardinal]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Destroyer doesn't even have superhuman intelligence. And he's not the only one at his intelligence level. Destroyer's 90pt gadget pool also has a limitation that he can only change the powers in his lab, something that your infinite amount of abuse seems to ignore.

 

Destroyer lacks KB resistance (though I'm sure you've put that as a fueled triggered advantage in his gadget pool, along with his Precognition Crystal Ball that tells him just what to make for the day) so a half-teleport punch will knock him on his tea kettle. He has no Acrobatics or Breakfall, so two or three people whose purpose is to trip him up have their work cut out.

 

In my scenario, I had truly expected Destroyer to hold his own and have the PCs be the deciding factor (would they help Destroyer or V'han?). Destroyer was out before Turn 1 was over.

 

You beat my response as I was typing.

 

You saw the actually numbers so you obviously know better than I do. However, my suspicion was that Firewing and Holocaust, two 900+ pters, were the ones that turned the fight. I don't recall which one anklosaur was, but it seemed like Mechassassin, Slick and Grond mainly served as additional targets for DD and to break down the FW to allow the final flurry of attacks.

 

Were the teamwork bonuses important to letting the big guns hit?

 

Given your experience with your villain team, do you think that any of the established hero teams could take DD down?

[casualplayer]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

I have never had Dr. Destroyer defeated in combat in any of the campaigns I have used him in. Driven from the field, yes, thwarted, well unless he had been the game would have become Post-Apoc HERO, Stunned even but never defeated.

 

Once he is humbled you, as a GM, lose a huge weapon in your arsenal, the ability to make your players afraid. Once lost, you can never get it back.

 

BTW, Dr. Destroyer's VPP is ample to make a Phase-Transsubstantiator Crown to give his entire Primary Weapons Array Indirect to scoot past his Force Wall and still have points left over for KB Resistance, an absense in his character design that has been described as a feature but I firmly believe is a flaw.

 

I believe that either the Sentinels or the Justice Squadron could, given their "A game, thwart Doctor Destroyer but someone is headed to the hospital or morgue.

[Comic]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

So.. what about ordinary 350 point, non-munchkinized, playable PCs, with say 32 pts of non-combat skills to balance them as whole, rounded personalities with lives off the battlefield?

 

Can people design such characters capable of successfully engaging Destroyer without ending up dead?

 

Who would you bring to the team, on such a basis?

 

I had a GM who used a similar measuring stick during character creation for his campaigns. Had interesting results.

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

So.. what about ordinary 350 point, non-munchkinized, playable PCs, with say 32 pts of non-combat skills to balance them as whole, rounded personalities with lives off the battlefield?

 

Can people design such characters capable of successfully engaging Destroyer without ending up dead?

 

 

Nope.

[Comic]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Nope.

Well, it was a quarter century ago.

 

I understand Dr. D's upgraded a bit since then.

 

So, who is the new gold standard for 350 pointers to aim for?

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Hmm, probably someone like Holocaust or Firewing. Powerful, too powerful to be beaten on simple slugfest, but ( just barely ) able to be beaten through clever tactics and versatile powers.

 

Gravitar is the turnover point, IMO. While she does have weaknesses, I don't see any reasonable 350 point team exploiting them sufficiently before she smashes everyone with 50 Gs of gravitational force. Most of the other 800-1000 point energy controllers don't have her defense or area attacks.

[Cardinal]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Well, I ran half of a battle between Dr. D and the Sentinels, until it became clear that it was a waste of time to finish. Predictions were pretty true to form: Sentinels would be lucky to last an entire turn.

 

Bravo was useless. His movement is very limited and even if he can get to DD, he can't do anything. Theoretically, He might be useful if his luck could aid his comrades. He was still up through Turn 1, Phase 6, but only because DD has not bothered to target him yet.

 

Proteus was also pretty useless. Even cranking up his attacks, he can pretty much be ignored. He made the mistake of trying to move through a mental entangled DD. He hit, did nothing and promptly got smeared to negative body on the next action. Probably will end up bleeding to death.

 

Black Rose managed to land a couple of blows, but soon ended targeted and hosed. 2 hit wonder.

 

Dr. Vox not really able to do much damaged. Still up, only because DD doesn't care about her yet. Her attacks can pretty much be ignored.

 

The two MVPs of the fight were Diadem and Diamond. Diadem mentally sniped with mental entangle allowing her teammates to actually hit DD while he was at O DCV. DD can promptly break out, but not until after he has been at least hit. Unfortunately, as soon as DD had a free action, he lobbed an explosion at her from long range. Despite DFC she ended up taking substantial body and ended up very unconscious.

 

Diamond took advantage of the mental entangles to land some blows on DD. Unfortunately, not enough to stun him or even keep stun on him after PS12. As of phase 6, he is down about 1/2 his stun and is likely going to take a couple more shots to put out. He was also hit by the Dex drain and is lucky to be able to even move. With Diadem out, he doesn't really have a shot to hit DD. Strangely, he does not have teamwork, despite being the senior statesman team member extrordinare.

 

For the sentinels, it seems that the best tactic is for one character to try to draw DD's fire and DFC to force him to waste attacks and pray that Diamond and Diadem can get a little damage through.

[Kirby]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Eek! Forgot about this until your most recent post.

You saw the actually numbers so you obviously know better than I do. However' date=' my suspicion was that Firewing and Holocaust, two 900+ pters, were the ones that turned the fight. I don't recall which one anklosaur was, but it seemed like Mechassassin, Slick and Grond mainly served as additional targets for DD and to break down the FW to allow the final flurry of attacks.[/quote']Actually, Mechassassin wasn't in the fight (I thought I'd brought him in, but when I reread the thread and counted heads, he'd been left out). Slick and Grond ended up being "soakers of damage" which got Slick killed. (Though he doesn't look it on paper, Slick was pretty useless against Dr.D.)

 

Were the teamwork bonuses important to letting the big guns hit?

Dr. D. has a 10 DCV which is tough for us 350ers, but Firewing has an OCV 13 and Holocaust and OCV 14 meaning they needed an 8- and 7- to hit him. Even when Destroyer switched his 4 Overall Levels into combat, Firewing did so as well, so Dr. D's 14 DCV meant Firewing needed a 12- and Holocaust and 11- to hit. Anklyosaur was the guy in battle armor. He has a DEX-based 7 OCV, +2 w/all Combat, +3 w/Ranged attacks and +1 with his Grenade Launcher MP, so even as listed (I only moved his Speed from 4 to 6 and gave him Teamwork), he has 13 OCV. I believe he's the one that did a called shot to Destroyer's head with a 3d6 RKA and did 5x on STUN roller. IIRC, that was right after D fell on his tea kettle.

 

However, I did give each member a 3pt Teamwork skill, which just made the hitting (and that called shot) easier.

 

Given your experience with your villain team' date=' do you think that any of the established hero teams could take DD down?[/quote']Well, I actually don't have an books with established hero teams other than the Champions and UNITY (U:DoF), but I'd say UNITY might have a good shot. Mentiac and Quasar probably wouldn't be much more than targets (though w/Quasar's +1 Variable Advantage, he could do 2xPenetrating to get past Destroyer's armor, but he'd have to take Body to do so). El Picaro and Myrmidon would have the best chance of hurting Destroyer while Dr. Black and Dr. White might be able to annoy Dr. D. I think once that two (maybe three) get KO'd, it's Destroyer's game. If UNITY can't take Destroyer in two turns, I don't think they'll be able to survive/win.

[Badger]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

I bet Chuck Norris could beat Dr. Destroyer by himself.

 

 

I had to say it.

[Narratio]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

The whole thing goes to show that the only way to beat DD is with thermonuclear weapons or equivalent. When a 5 or 6 PC team can't take down one bad guy, they have to use either overwhelming fire power or the environment. Try dropping a sky scraper on his head. Either that or try to find the McGuffin that the GM has laid out, like the Universal Nullifier...