A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

[Metaphysician]

Basically, let us assume a meeting encounter. No minions for Dr Destroyer; they are otherwise occupied or such.

 

In opposition are all the yet published heroes of 700 points or higher:

 

-Dr Ka and Robert Caliburn ( Vibora Bay )

-Enforcer Ashima, Davos, and the Witness ( Hidden Lands )

-Gyeroy Vedun, Rashindar, and Tetsuronin ( Champions Worldwide )

 

Nobody is surprised, but both sides are expecting to fight the other.

 

1. Who is more likely to win?

 

2. Is it within credible possibility for the hero to win?

[mattingly]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Does Dr. D know they're coming, and have time to prepare?

Do the heroes plan an ambush, and have time to prepare?

Where does the battle take place?

[Starlord]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Dr. D is toast. Tetsuronin is a credible opponent all by himself.

[MitchellS]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

I agree with Jeff T. Against a 350-450 point team Dr. D is a cosmic god. Against a 700-1,100 point team Dr. D is just another common badguy [but a team that powerful is Superman, Green Lantern, JLA range and they'd not run in fear from Darkseid either].

[Zed-F]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Does Dr. D know they're coming, and have time to prepare?

Do the heroes plan an ambush, and have time to prepare?

Where does the battle take place?

 

Meta said it was a meeting encounter, so I assume neither side is ambushing or has time to prepare.

 

I'd have to agree that Dr. D is in quite a pickle here. The heroes just have him out-actioned too badly.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Well, here's the thing: Dr. D has very high and wide spectrum Defenses, even without having assigned his VPP to augment them. Even though his opponents are built on 700-plus points, in many cases those points have not been sunk into high Damage Class attacks, and even their Defenses are sometimes low.

 

I'm afraid Dr. Ka and Robert Caliburn simply don't have the raw power to do very much to Destroyer. At best they would be a distraction. Ashima and Davos are better in that regard (although not by a lot), but they're weak defensively in a straightup fight. Davos whaling on Dr. D HTH will be toasted by the first Destroyer Beam that hits him, and DD can be extremely accurate with those. Ashima will do better if she can stay at a distance and snipe mentally, although she can only whittle the Doctor down a little at a time. Gyeroy Vedun's personal attacks tend to be the same way, although that Transform of his can sneak in a real suprise for DD if the hero lasts a couple of Turns. GV might also be able to Summon an elemental sufficiently maximized for combat to slug it out with Destroyer, although whether it would be willing to is another matter.

 

Otherwise it's only the Witness, Rashindar and Tetsuronin who have the clout to put any serious hurting on Doc D, but looking at the way their Defenses are set up they'll still have trouble taking more than one or two hits from ol' Albert's main weapons. Their best bet would be to use the other heroes for distraction, try to coordinate their attacks to do as much damage as possible and negate the Doctor's very high DCV by attacking from behind, and do Knockback on the Doctor to make him waste actions getting to his feet (no Knockback Resistance among his base abilities), while letting Gyeroy Vedun and perhaps the Witness throw Transform-type attacks at him... and hope that the more powerful heroes survive long enough to bring him down.

 

Now if Dr. Destroyer knows that he'll be fighting these heroes, and knows what they can do, he'll have configured his VPP to counter the tactics above, and the heroes are in real trouble. Also, DD has a 60 Presence and +6d6 for his Reputation, so if he opens with a Presence Attack almost all of these heroes will at least hesitate and allow him to get the drop on them.

 

OTOH if Destroyer was fighting the 700+ point Champions 3000 from Galactic Champions, especially if they were backed up by Star*Shield, that would likely be a different story. Most of those heroes have massive attacks, and two or three of them have the Defenses to stand up to Destroyer's big guns and still keep coming.

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

I was figuring that, from the perspective of the good guys, the following tactics are best:

 

-Robert Caliburn and Dr Ka should stay at a distance, with Caliburn using his VPP to Aid Dr Ka's mental attacks. The Ka form is invisible and intangible, which should keep it alive. The trick is adding enough to the mental attacks to get damaging or distracting effects ( after all, Ego +0 might be enough to get a command of "Waste a phase taunting these puny insects" through once or twice ).

 

-Ashima, mental sniping, no complexity there

 

-Davos should probably hold his action, and spend it grabbing and moving out of the way his allies, so as to get Dr D to miss some attacks, or else to Dive for Cover against attacks aimed at him. Make him miss, basically.

 

-The Witness should be using that VPP to haul out an NND attack that Dr Destroyer lacks the defense for ( "force field" or especially "magical protection" being good picks ).

 

-Gyeroy Vedun should spam elementals, if at all possible. Basically, put more bodies on the battlefield, and hopefully force Dr D to spend actions clearing them out.

 

-Rashindar should go big, use his thaumaturgy to add extra defense, and tank Dr D. Soak up attacks so. . .

 

-. . .Testuronin can whack Dr D repeatedly with the Mega Villain Killer, aka "5d6 RKA, +2 Stun multiplier." That averages 85 Stun per hit, or 22 Stun on Dr D after defenses.

 

Now, yeah, specifically configured gadget pool could make this strategy ineffective. Hence why I specified "meeting encounter." The thing is, I don't think a typically configured gadget pool would be totally unbeatable, because Dr D has to account for alot of contingencies. If nothing else, I'd always make sure to have a one-shot escape teleporter around.

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

The alternative tactic: Have all the VPP users spend their VPP's on buffing the defenses of one pointman ( The Witness, Rashindar, or Tetsuronin, preferably ). The individual then pounds away at Dr D while counting on the buffed defenses to avoid losing too much Stun.

[Zed-F]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

If one or more heroes hold a phase and hit DD while he's attacking (on DD's action), they can interrupt him. All it takes is a DEX-off and the ability to do knockback with, well, anything. Especially an area-effect anything. It doesn't even have to do significant damage, as long as it takes him off his feet, which will make him miss and put him on the ground (or off-balance in the air) at 1/2 DCV. Then while he's there, the bigger attackers can wail away.

 

There are lots of ways even the guys with less powerful attacks can set up and protect their allies. There's simply too many opponents for DD to counter unless he can paste a whole bunch of them in one fell swoop by getting the first hit in.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Now' date=' yeah, specifically configured gadget pool could make this strategy ineffective. Hence why I specified "meeting encounter."[/quote']

 

Ah, I wasn't sure of the meaning of that expression, considering that you said "both sides expecting to fight the other." No advance prep by Destroyer, the group you specified has a chance. If DD is ready for them, they're probably going down.

 

Very clever tactics BTW. I do have to say that while the "boost defences of one character" strategy is mechanically sound, it's extremely rare to see such a strategy in team superhero stories. Kind of a genre thing.

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

I've seen it a couple times, though its typically a more general boosting. Ones that come to mind include:

 

-Various Destiny Force users in the climax of Avengers Forever

 

-Team 7 empowering Deathblow to fight Damocles ( Fire From Heaven )

 

While I'd be as reluctant to allow "chain" Aids as anyone else, against a suitably massive opponent, I see no reason against letting the magic users buff their allies.

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

If one or more heroes hold a phase and hit DD while he's attacking (on DD's action), they can interrupt him. All it takes is a DEX-off and the ability to do knockback with, well, anything. Especially an area-effect anything. It doesn't even have to do significant damage, as long as it takes him off his feet, which will make him miss and put him on the ground (or off-balance in the air) at 1/2 DCV. Then while he's there, the bigger attackers can wail away.

 

There are lots of ways even the guys with less powerful attacks can set up and protect their allies. There's simply too many opponents for DD to counter unless he can paste a whole bunch of them in one fell swoop by getting the first hit in.

 

Good strategy, but it has one weakness: "point vulnerability."

 

That is, all it takes is one thing to totally negate it: KB Res in the gadget pool, which seems to be a smart general purchase.

 

Hence the reason I tend to favor throwing a covered/buffed magic user at him: there's alot of magic based NNDs that the gadget pool simply can't counter, even with preparation.

[casualplayer]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Would the heroes spend any effort on rescuing one of the others if they were near death? Dr. D, focused on any single opponent, will rend them pretty good. If the others leave the wounded to bleed out, like most D&D games, then the heroes will outlast Dr. D and he'll end up on the bottom of the monkeypile. Otherwise, maybe.

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Thats partly why my main tactics involve defense buffs of some kind, so even if Dr D focuses on somebody and throws the big guns, he's more likely to only Stun, rather than KO, on a hit.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

I have a feeling that once we see the members of the Sentinels, Justice Squadron and Star*Guard in the Champions Universe update book, this scenario will seem more practical.

[Zed-F]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Well, like I said, there's lots of approaches the heroes could take. A medium-powered entangle would reduce DD's DCV to 0 until he can break out of it on his phase, giving the heroes free shots until then, especially if they all attack at once and coordinate. (And again after the entangle is reapplied.) A grab can accomplish similar results, especially a TK grab, with the bonus of being able to alter DD's facing for him so he's looking the wrong way to be able to target most of the heroes.

 

My point wasn't to expound on any one way as the best way to take him out, just that there are many ways the heroes could force DD to trade one hero's action for DD's action, leaving the rest of the heroes free to use all their actions on offence while DD is incapable of responding in kind. That's a main reason why master villains need to have henchmen.

[Willpower]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

I agree with Jeff T. Against a 350-450 point team Dr. D is a cosmic god. Against a 700-1' date='100 point team Dr. D is just another common badguy [but a team that powerful is Superman, Green Lantern, JLA range and they'd not run in fear from Darkseid either'].

 

I actually ran an adventure just like this. It was the published Adventure combining Champions and SAS. Though I ran it with about 8 or 9 people all playing heroes in the 700-800 point range. It was a one shot, and I designed all the heroes based off all of the players most prominent previous character, but built to 700-800 point range. I also built them exactly how the players envisioned them, so if someone wanted to be able to teleport anywhere in the world, he had the capability.

 

To let you all know the Heroes did win, but it wasn't a huge toast fest. Dr. D's offense is SO powerful even against such foes as these, where their defenses ranged in the 40-60 area, that one blast took the first hero out, in one shot, just as any other group he might encounter. Though in this case, he was defeated somewhat by the plot, because one of the characters was built of living energy, and had an ultimate sense with it. He could sense and distinguish every detail of all types of energy, so he saw the trap, the SAS villain had laid for Dr. D, and sprung it on him.

 

BTW, the SAS grandvillain, didn't even last a full turn. Hell, the Iron Dynamo dude from SAS, the biggest threat, except for the 2 baddies in that adventure was beaten pretty easy, because one of the characters was strong enough to pick him up and throw him very far off the path.

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Rechecked my Hero Bestiary, and: ouch. That 500 point elemental slot is more useful than I thought. An Earth Elemental of the mountain type can do a few stun per hit, and is only stunned by the big blast, nothing less. Air and water elementals both have a x2 KB attack, which could be great for disruption.

 

Vedun can't solo Dr D, but he's a hell of alot more important than I realized.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Good point, but that elemental is only Friendly, so whether it would stick around after taking a facefull of Destroyer Beam is open to GM interpretation.

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

*cough* Well, now that CU Update is out, we can add to the fray:

 

-Black Rose ( Dr Destroyer: "Damn, now I can't see." )

 

-Diamond ( Dr D: "This guy is actually grappling me." )

 

-the Drifter ( Dr D: "Oww, that f!@#ing HURT!" )

 

I think Dr Destroyer's odds just plummeted.

[incrdbil]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Well, if heroes get updated..DD, shoud now be toting a 120 pt Gadget pool--preferably of the Cosmic type just to represent the amazing amoutn of hardware he carries.

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Nah, he's been busy doing other things than boosting his personal armor designs. Specifically, building and arming Destruga II.

[Peregrine]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

"Insanity - Doing the same thing you've done before and expecting different results."

 

Ergo, DD is certifiably insane. (Assuming there was any doubt before, of course.)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Nah' date=' he's been busy doing other things than boosting his personal armor designs. Specifically, building and arming Destruga II. [/quote']

 

 

Hasn't Destruga II already been sunk?

 

[Metaphysician]

Re: A Thought Experiment: The Buffest Heroes vs Dr Destroyer

 

Peregrine- Hey, its not *exactly* the same thing. . . he had much better tech and bigger forces than before.

 

Plus, good lord, the opposition it took to beat him this time. . .

 

Lord Liaden- Yeah, but only just recently in CU time. I think he's probably still working cleanup after losing the island.