Ego Boost

[TaxiMan]

From the description of EGO, why would any hero not have a ton of this?

 

I know, I know "it's expensive & doesn't do much". But in describing your character, don't you have heroic willpower? If you get hurt, do you run away from a fight like some normal guy off the street?

 

20 EGO is really good for normals, and no normal has more than 30 EGO. So are there a bunch of normal guys running around in the world that have "More of what it takes!" than your character?

 

Who's characters have respectable EGOs? Who's doesn't? Who shows their character progressing by increasing their confidence and heroic will power (buying EGO with XP)?

 

I haven't seen it.

[McCoy]

Re: Ego Boost

 

My non-mentalist characters usually have a few points spent on EGO, both for the improved (and sometimes surprising) DECV and the "lead us not into temtation" EGO checks.

[tribe]

Re: Ego Boost

 

Most of my heroes have 14 or 15 EGO unless they are the leader-types and have 18 to 25.

 

I figure that most characters in comics are relatively sucesptible to mental attacks. How many times have the X-Men been mind controlled to fight each other?

[TaxiMan]

Re: Ego Boost

 

Yeah, 'mind control' happens.

 

BUT, this is could be a scaling error in Hero. I mean, we've got the by-far uber mentalist Menton, right? And his EGO is only 30?!? Much less than a Legendary normal (50!)?!!? So here's the best in the world, and he only "hits" a normal ~0% of the time, and said Legendary normal shrugs off illusions and commands typically in seconds?

 

Seems like a scaling problem to me. Make EGO 1 cp and have supers with EGO of 60+ (Menton maybe 75). Max for Legendary normals of 30. Now it's scaled properly. OR, say that Normals have 20 EGO absolute max, leave the rest alone? Anyway, I'm not really trying to suggest a rules change ('cause the game is fun and fine as is), just point out that EGO isn't exactly what it's described to be in the manual.

[tribe]

Re: Ego Boost

 

Yeah, 'mind control' happens.

 

BUT, this is could be a scaling error in Hero. I mean, we've got the by-far uber mentalist Menton, right? And his EGO is only 30?!? Much less than a Legendary normal (50!)?!!? So here's the best in the world, and he only "hits" a normal ~0% of the time, and said Legendary normal shrugs off illusions and commands typically in seconds?

 

 

I hadn't even remembered reading about Legendary normals having 50PRE. My own games would generally cap normals at 25, but hardly any would get above 20.

 

But then again other games I've seen have very high Speeds (I reckon that's been discussed a lot on these boards), so it would all depend on your actual game and house rules etc.

 

I'd hate to have a game where characters had really high stats anyway. STR can go above 30 easily, but I don't like other stats getting beyond that.

 

Maybe I like the humanity of characters so that although they are much more powerful than regular joe, they are still in the same general ball park. Doesn't make sense does it?

[TaxiMan]

Re: Ego Boost

 

I was taking the Legendary levels from 5ER - I was shocked when I saw EGO at 50! Something is definitely unhinged there.

 

I understand a desire to keep characters human, it's hard to relate to playing characters who are gods. We have no points in common with gods - so how do we relate to our characters? We want to keep them like the old Greek gods, full of normal human failings but loaded with Awesome Power !

 

But as I think about it, I think there is merit to scaling EGO to match STR. Normal people go to 20 EGO / STR regularly, and once in a generation someone gets to 30 EGO / STR. Superpowered characters can get to 60 EGO / STR, and cosmic-level characters reach 75+. All that seems to fit my take on EGO.

 

Make EGO 1 cp instead of 2. Make ECV = EGO/5. It seems like it'd work out just fine.

[pinecone]

Re: Ego Boost

 

I usually end up with 15 to 17 EGO and "Iron will" Mental def (10 to 12), 6 of one,1/2 dozen of other.....Starting characters are mostly EGO 11......

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: Ego Boost

 

Lately, I've been designing characters with "Iron Will" (EGO +5 [10 active], Defense Only -1 [5 real]); this allows them to use their EGO to resist things, but if they aren't mentalists, they don't need the offensive power. This gets EGO down to 1 point per level, and makes it comparable to Mental Defense. It's slightly better in the long run, as it resists things other than mental attacks, but you don't get the initial bonus at the beginning that you do for MD.

 

If they're experienced supers, I'll also give them "Get out of my head!" (Mental defense, 3 points, nonpersistent), to bump the total mental defense up into the low 20's.

[Weldun]

Re: Ego Boost

 

Nice one, Kevin.

 

I tend to buy PRE over EGO. I have a problem when a VIPER nest leader with a less than thrilling speach can give my "hero" pause. But I also tend to bump a few points into EGO, say 8. But I have to look into the Iron will concept.

 

Then again. My current "Brick" has an EGO of 20 and 6 points (10 total) in mental defence.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ego Boost

 

Lately' date=' I've been designing characters with "Iron Will" (EGO +5 [10 active'], Defense Only -1 [5 real]); this allows them to use their EGO to resist things, but if they aren't mentalists, they don't need the offensive power. This gets EGO down to 1 point per level, and makes it comparable to Mental Defense. It's slightly better in the long run, as it resists things other than mental attacks, but you don't get the initial bonus at the beginning that you do for MD.

 

While this provides advantages over MD in that it helps with some other areas, it also has the drawback of providing no defense against Ego attacks and other constructs that inflict damage against mental defense. I think it's a reasonable construct.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Ego Boost

 

BUT' date=' this is could be a scaling error in Hero. I mean, we've got the by-far uber mentalist Menton, right? And his EGO is only 30?!? Much less than a Legendary normal (50!)?!!? So here's the best in the world, and he only "hits" a normal ~0% of the time, and said Legendary normal shrugs off illusions and commands typically in seconds?[/quote']

 

Keep in mind that the Legendary category for Ego is a range, running from 21-50. 50 is the maximum that any human being can have without being considered superhuman, i.e. having to have some paranormal explanation for his Ego being higher. Just because that's the human maximum doesn't mean that many humans, or even any of them, currently have that. In fact the only published characters I've seen under Fifth Edition that come close to a 50 Ego are the various godlike/cosmic entities. And from the game-mechanic point of view, if you're in any campaign but supers, where Normal Characteristic Maxima apply, a 50 Ego will cost 140 Character Points. I'd say that's stretching the definition of "normal" pretty far.

 

I think it would be more fair to compare Ego to Dexterity as far as scaling goes, since Ego provides Combat Value and Initiative for mental combat as DEX does for physical combat, but doesn't provide any figured Speed. If you consider DEX to be fairly priced at 3 CP per, then Ego isn't unfair at 2 IMHO.

 

As for Menton, he doesn't necessarily have the strongest will in the Champions Universe; he's the most powerful and versatile psionic. As far as hitting a target with a 50 Ego, that translates to an ECV of 17, but Menton has up to ten Combat Skill Levels with his mental powers, giving him an OECV of 20. It's true that his Mind Control, Mental Illusions, Telepathy and even Mental Paralysis Powers wouldn't have a great deal of effect on someone with an Ego that high, but his Ego Attack, multi-sense Flash, and Mental Transform likely would. And he can throw those at a Speed of 9.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Ego Boost

 

Good points LL! I'll support the other side, 'cause if I just agreed, there would be no discussion. That, and I still think it smells.

 

Are you agreeing that the Legendary EGO range is wrong? I couldn't really tell. If only gods and cosmic entities exceed a normal human's potential EGO, what's so super about the rest of 'em? Judging from the actual range of EGO in published characters, I still think the chart in 5er showing a human can have 50 EGO ... is wrong.

 

Comparing EGO to DEX still supports having it be 1 cp. DEX actually only costs 2 cp since no one - no one - fails to by SPD beyond that provided by DEX. (I know, state an absolute and somebody will find an exception. That's cool, I wonder if there is one.) Since DEX is uber-useful and EGO ain't, I'll stand by pricing it at 1 cp.

 

Finally, stats are who you are inside. Skill levels represent training. The fact Menton has so many freakin' skill levels makes it seem like he should have had more EGO - except the Powers That Be wanted EGO to track DEX.

 

With 60 EGO (at 1 cp) and ECV = EGO/5 he would have 12 ECV that easily would hit a normal maxed out at 30 EGO, 6 ECV. Since he's a top dog Mentalist, maybe he should have 75 EGO. Heck, he could still have some CSLs, but he wouldn't have needed 10 skill levels.

[Weldun]

Re: Ego Boost

 

In my games I have a TORG inspired house-rule. For determining initiative order, EGO can be used in place of DEX. However, if a character does this, they must only use BOECV abilities, holding any remaining actions until their DEX.

[Robyn]

Re: Ego Boost

 

And from the game-mechanic point of view' date=' if you're in any campaign but supers, where Normal Characteristic Maxima apply, a 50 Ego will cost 140 Character Points.[/quote']

 

Because I just spent several minutes working this out, I'll say that the math here was tricky until I remembered that characters start out with 10 EGO (for free).

[David Johnston]

Re: Ego Boost

 

From the description of EGO, why would any hero not have a ton of this?

 

I know, I know "it's expensive & doesn't do much". But in describing your character, don't you have heroic willpower? If you get hurt, do you run away from a fight like some normal guy off the street?

 

 

No, but then I have a lot of Presence. If you have confidence and bravery, who needs willpower?

 

However, there's a reason why the sky is the limit for "legendary normal" Ego. Who has higher Ego...Superman or Green Lantern? Who has the higher Ego, Thor, or Doctor Strange? GL and Doc have no innate superpowers as such (at least when Doctor Strange isn't elevated to the post of Sorcerer Supreme). Despite this, there's every reason in the world to give them EGO's which match or exceed every bulgy headed freak out there.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Ego Boost

 

Well said, David. Ego is supposed to be a measure of strength of will, and some of the most impressive characters in comics in that area are not otherwise superhuman.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Ego Boost

 

Thanks David! Thinking as I type here, but while Presence is good it doesn't IMO cover bravery. That seems like an internal thing, not an external thing. Still, we use PRE to defend against being scared (PRE attacks)...

 

 

We also use EGO to defend (IDHMBIFOM). So maybe you defend with PRE if you are used to scaring others, and experiencing a PRE attack only stirs up professional interest in how it was done? While defending against a PRE attack with EGO represents just plain being strong willed.

 

Makes sense to me & I like it - but we're way outside published explanations here. Yeah, I'd say confidence and bravery are EGO where they help you, and PRE where those traits are visible to others (who are impressed by said traits).

 

LL - also true that in comics humans shine when it comes to EGO. It's a little off-topic, but I'd guess that's because (a) willpower is one of a very few traits that has stayed important for heroes over the last 40+ years, and ( it'd suck if there weren't any human heroes. I mean, really - don't we all secretly believe that Superman is human?

 

Anyway, granting for the moment that humans are sorta super-powered as a racial characteristic when it comes to EGO, where are the super-charged radioactive mutant descendants of the gods with super EGO?

 

Maybe there is no such thing as a Mega-EGO superpower?

 

So we can have super-human physical traits (STR, DEX, COM) and a super-human mental trait (INT), but the people playing games all unconciously agree that they can't relate to a character with super-human EGO.

 

Yeah, I'm throwin' a lot of stuff at the wall to see if any sticks - but I solidly convinced that EGO is one messed up stat.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Ego Boost

 

Just to be clear, I'm saying

 

EGO = internal strength of will

 

PRE = external appearance

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ego Boost

 

Just to be clear, I'm saying

 

EGO = internal strength of will

 

PRE = external appearance

 

What's comeliness then?

 

PRE is not about appearance, in my view. Looking intimidating doesn't automaticallly make you harder to intimidate. Hitler had an astounding PRE, but doesn't look all that scary and would look even less scary without the reputation going along with his image. Captain America doesn't look that impressive, but his PRE is astounding. PRE feeds to numerous skills which may or may not be affected by external appearance.

 

PRE is as much, or more, about how the character projects himself to others as to how he appears. Self confidence bears into it as does, well, personal presence.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Ego Boost

 

Yeah' date=' I'm throwin' a lot of stuff at the wall to see if any sticks - but I solidly convinced that EGO is one messed up stat.[/quote']

 

So it sounds as though any differing arguments that we may present aren't going to have much of an impact.

[David Johnston]

Re: Ego Boost

 

Just to be clear, I'm saying

 

EGO = internal strength of will

 

PRE = external appearance

 

Gotta disagree with you. PRE, (only to defend) has absolutely nothing to do with external appearance. As far as the only mechanic for natural fear is concerned, PRE and EGO equally represent "bravery" or "fearlessness". The difference is that EGO is the product of discipline and focus while PRE's kind of bravery is liable to be the product of adrenalin, emotional intensity. The average schmuck who gets bit by a radioactive bug does not possess an exceptionally focussed mind, and doesn't get it as one of their termite powers. What he does get is enough confidence out of having superpowers, and enough thrill out of engaging in violent physical activity, and being super good at it to overcome the fear he feels.

 

Maybe there is no such thing as a Mega-EGO superpower?

 

That's what the comics strongly indicate...except in the rare cases of beings to whom regular superheroes rate somewhere between insect and bacterium. There are powers of course that requiring EGO for effective use are reliably associated with them but either they are expressions of that mental discipline, or by their nature, they require you to learn it in order to use them effectively.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Ego Boost

 

You guys make good points. I knew when I said "PRE = external appearance" I'd said it wrong, but left it for lack of desire to hammer out a better way to say it.

 

I meant something more like PRE = external effect on others.

 

PRE for defense only doesn't fit with that definition. It works in the game because it's costed appropriately to its value. As far as what it means, it seems wrong by my earlier take on EGO and PRE.

 

David J. - very good thoughts! Maybe I can get accustomed to your definitions. Let's see...

 

EGO is mental toughness acquired by training and hard work.

 

PRE is an emotional attribute, one that's visible by others (social PRE) and useful internally (adrenaline-fueled bravery).

 

OK! Your example about Major Termite takes the same path I took waaay back, but you attribute it to PRE. Given your definition, that works.

 

Even better, your definition explains why EGO is dissed by 90% of heroes and only mentalists work it up!

 

I bow to your convincing arguments and accept your definitions. Mark this day on your calendar - you won an Internet debate!

 

LL - my "see what sticks" comment was more about "what makes sense to y'all & what generates feedback" than anything else. And though sometimes convinced of an opinion, I'll still try to listen. I guess I just need to hear an argument I can understand.

 

The only nagging complaint I have remaining is the ludicrous level of Legendary human EGO. Wouldn't be so bad if there were any characters published that were anywhere near that limit.

 

Just for fun, my next character might be such a man without mentalist powers. I'll try to buy +40 EGO, Only Because I'm Legendary (-1/2) and see if it flies.

[dustytomes]

Re: Ego Boost

 

sooo...

 

then Ego = mental dex

and Pre = mental str

???

Dusty

[name_tamer]

Re: Ego Boost

 

The only nagging complaint I have remaining is the ludicrous level of Legendary human EGO. Wouldn't be so bad if there were any characters published that were anywhere near that limit.

 

This seems a little odd to me too. The only published character I remember getting close to that is the Revered Elder, from 4E, who did in fact have a 50 EGO.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Ego Boost

 

You're a wonderful human being with many great and unique qualities. The world wouldn't be the same with you. I don't say this lightly: you're one of my very favorite people. Ever. You're often the only reasonable person worth reading. You make me laugh like a hyena and your taste in movies is perfect. My respect and admiration for you is without limit. And I can't believe how stunning you are physically. You're just the total package. Have a fantastic day...you deserve it!