Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

[Markdoc]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

. . . A little aside: Swordfighting continued to be practiced on the battlefield by the swedish soldiers called Carolinians (roughly during the latter half of the 1600s). While most of the armies of the continent were conscripts' date=' trained almost exclusively in firearms and musket drills, the Carolinians were pros, and their tactics consisted of closing ranks with the opposition and go HtH on their asses.[/quote']

 

Sure, it's not like swords suddenly disappeared - Scots highlanders and Islemen continued to rely on swords and axes (at least in part) up until the 1800s, while in the east of Europe, people were still making armoured charges and using bows. In both cases, these soldiers fought alongside "modern" troops for quite a long time. But they were also very definately support troops used for desperate measures.

 

It wasn't the sword-armed Carolinians who won battles for the Swedes in the Livonian war in the 16th and 17th century. It was disciplined ranks of musket-armed troops (including many Carolinians) who decimated the russian cavalry before they could even get into bow range, much less charge range. That's not very medieval!

 

Even in western europe swords were still being carried (and being used as a backup to the cavalry's pistols on the battlefield) for a couple of centuries. British cavalry were still issued swords and lances in WWI for pete's sake! Likewise, fencing remained a gentleman's sport until the 1930's and is still practiced today. But I have difficulty stretching the medieval period out to 1916, or 2006.

 

cheers, Mark

[gojira]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

So the floor is open to anyone who cares to propose a non-Oriental martial arts style suitable for a fantasy campaign assuming medieval -> Renaissance -> Edwardian technology periods. I've posited a couple of my own in the past for my campaign but I've never been happy with the outcome.

 

Markdoc, it seems to me that the OP is interested in more than just medieval martial arts.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

It's not weird at all - their predecessors have already been mentioned. No-one is arguing that European martial arts didn't start to flourish in the renaissance. But by the time Silver published his book (1599)' date=' European armies were all about maximising firepower. Knights and archers had been replaced by pike and shot. [b']The arquebus had already been replaced by the musket[/b] and training in hand to hand combat replaced by musket drill. Swordfighting was already well on its way to being a gentleman's accomplishment (like singing, dancing and billiards, for which the first instruction booklets begin to appear about the same time).

 

By that time, the Spanish armada was history, the Turks had been driven from Europe and the seas were dominated by cannon-firing galleons and Galleasses. Conquistadores had not only conquered a big chunk of the New World, but *third* generation Europeans were already being born on the other side of the Atlantic. The first settlers in what would later become the United States were busily building away, while on the other side of the Pacific, Europeans had already set up trading houses in Japan and China. The year Silver published his book was the year, the first large multinational corporation trading on the stock market was launched.

 

George Silver can't be described by any stretch of the imagination as belonging to the medieval world - by then the renaissance is ending and we are into the reformation era. Even Marozzo, Agrippa, di Grassi are well post medieval, although I guess we could (just) claim them as renaissance writers. Certainly they all lived and published after the focus in European warfare had passed to pike and shot and armour, two handed swords and polearms were on their way out.

 

The real debate (not just here, but also in academia) is whether anything approaching a martial art existed in Europe *prior* to the renaissance.

 

 

 

Yep - but it focuses on post-medieval fighting styles (reasonably enough, since they are the only ones we know anything about).

 

cheers, Mark

 

I only have one small disagreement with your above post...The bolded section. It doesn't have much to do with Martial Arts, so its probably not worth the tangent, but the Musket was by no means in universal use by 1600. Most shot companies favored the Caliver, with a few Muskets added to the mix for heavy firepower. The ordinance lists from the English forces in Ireland in 1600, f'rinstance, called out for no more than 12 Muskets per company of shot. They didn't skirmish well, prevented their users from wearing armor due to the weight, and weren't a good fit for undernourished and/or sick troops. However, most other period commanders I've read favored a ratio of 25-30 muskets per hundred small shot. The evolution of the all musket shot companies came later in the 17th C as firearms tech improved to the point where the line blurred between caliver & musket, and the caliver eventually disappears.

[Markdoc]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

I only have one small disagreement with your above post...The bolded section.

 

It's a fair point - perhaps I should have said the musket "was replacing" rather than "had replaced" the arquebus.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Markdoc' date=' it seems to me that the OP is interested in more than just medieval martial arts.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I know - I listed some of the types I used in my FH game. But thread drift, ya know.....

 

But perhaps more to the point, if we rule out hypothetical medieval martial arts, we're left with the UMA selection - fencing, savate and pankration.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vestnik]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

From http://www.pbs.org/wnet/warriorchallenge/gladiators/time.html

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In the end, Christianity dealt the decisive blow to the gladiator games. After Emperor Constantine made the new faith the Roman Empire's official religion in 337 AD, Christian gladiator critics became more outspoken. Their denunciations echoed earlier reservations expressed by emperor (Marcus Aurelius) and intellectual (Cicero, Seneca) alike.

 

Ah, thanks for the correction. Vale!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

It's a fair point - perhaps I should have said the musket "was replacing" rather than "had replaced" the arquebus.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Hey, no worries... we're all history geeks here anyway.

I love the period descriptions of what the different classes of shot could do to a target... early Muskets were the real powerhouses of the Renaissance battlefeild.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

I'm of two minds as to what counts as the fall of the Roman Empire. While the Eastern empire went on for almost a millenium longer' date=' in some ways Rome [i']was[/i] the Empire.

 

Well, a lot of that symbolism had dissipated even before the sack of Rome. Rome had been in decline for some time before the Western Emperor Honorius moved his capital early in the Fifth Century, first to Milan and later to Ravenna. Ravenna remained the capital of Italy throughout Byzantine rule of the peninsula.

 

Historical records make it clear that the people of the Eastern Empire considered themselves to be Romans, and their realm to be the continuation of the Roman Empire.

[gojira]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

But perhaps more to the point' date=' if we rule out hypothetical medieval martial arts, we're left with the UMA selection - fencing, savate and pankration.[/quote']

 

Well, I think there are actually several schools of fence between 1550 and 1850. Like kung fu in UMA, that equates to several related but different write-ups.

 

Plus, maybe a modern re-enactor one. Heck, modern schools of fence are all different too. German Heidleberg (a la Heinlein), Russion, French, Italian, all emphasize different attack and defence strategies.

 

There are a LOT of potential write ups right there (no pun intended).

[ThothAmon]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Below is one example from the campaign:

 

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SCARLET TIDE

 

The Scarlet Tide school is sometimes referred to derogatively as 'The Fisherman's Art'. The formal patterns and strength-building exercises of this school of fighting are often practised whilst standing up to the neck in water, and occasionally underwater (or when wearing iron arm and leg rings). The fighting style has it's origins in the island kingdoms of Andronica and has spread via sea-trade routes to many of the civilised countries. The Scarlet Tide school has a small following in both the geographically nearby Romallian Empire and the distant wilds of Caledonia. Scarlet Tide exponents are noted for their ability to deliver quick, devastating blows from a solid defensive position.

 

In the early stages of learning Scarlet Tide students practise unarmed and with wooden weapons (staff and singlestick / shield combination) prior to the use of edged weapons. The school emphasises the use of the spear and the shield, the preferred weapons of the Andronican warrior. Focus upon the spear and shield combination gives the Scarlet Tide stylist the ability to engage in melee at all weapon lengths (short, medium and long). Other weapons that are mastered by the stylist include the staff (spear haft), the short sword / dagger, and the war club. Specific physical training develops the strength and endurance required for the field of mass battle e.g. the resistive medium of water (or iron rings) simulates fighting whilst wearing medium-heavy armour. Attacks are delivered as swift, balanced thrusts or sweeps from a strong defensive stance. The signature moves of the the school are the Lightning Thrust and the Crushing Blow, both typically aimed at weak spots in the armour / physique of an opponent.

 

The Scarlet Tide school also teaches two unusual combat elements; the art of array fighting, typically from within a shield wall or phalanx, and the art of movement (forced or otherwise) within a mass battle. Where many combat schools teach one-on-one-fighting, Scarlet Tide schools use group vs group fighting to teach exponents the need for awareness of surroundings and the value of working as a team. Experienced stylists tend to have an aptitude for squad-level leadership and the confidence to back it up in combat.

 

In addition to all other skill levels, exponents of the school must always have at least one skill level with spears.

 

Lightning Thrust - Fast Strike

Crushing Blow - Killing Strike

Advance - Shove

Brace - Root

Slam / Sweep - Takedown

Disarm - Martial Disarm

Block - Martial Block

 

WF: Shield

WF: Pole arms

WF: Blades

WF: Quarterstaff

 

MW: Club

MW: Quarterstaff

MW: Shield

MW: Pole arm

MW: Blade

MW: Fighting in armour

MW: Unarmed

 

Breakfall 8-

Tactics 8-

KS: Squad-level manueuvers 8-

 

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I'm still looking for other examples

[Vondy]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

 

We can come up with styles that re-enactors use, as actual styles are lost in history.

 

If you read Italian, German, or French you will be able to access detailed fencing manuals (one could call them codifications) from 1450-1800 or so.

[Vondy]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

But perhaps more to the point, if we rule out hypothetical medieval martial arts, we're left with the UMA selection - fencing, savate and pankration.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Also, Boxing, Kampfringen, Wrestling (several Euro styles mentioned), Zapato, and at least one knife-based martial art I can't remember the name of. The UMA list is not as bad as you would at first suspect. Also, though there is no formalized name, I'm sure there were wholly Western quarterstaff techniques, though you could probably just rename maneuvers from the Asian equivalents for this. A long stick is, after all, a long-stick.

[SirViss]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

And lets not forget Capoiera. It isn't exactly ancient, but dates back to at least the early 1800s.

[Vondy]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

And lets not forget Capoiera. It isn't exactly ancient' date=' but dates back to at least the early 1800s.[/quote']

 

I wasn't sure how Western that one was - seemed like a toss up. IIRC it had african roots and was primarily developed and used by african-origin slaves under the Portuguese in the Caribbean and South America. On the other hand, it was known and used in the European sphere and that alone might qualify it as being Western. Not sure.

[assault]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Also' date=' Boxing, Kampfringen, Wrestling (several Euro styles mentioned), Zapato, and at least one knife-based martial art I can't remember the name of. The UMA list is not as bad as you would at first suspect.[/quote']

 

Yes. Wrestling, in particular, seems to have been pretty ubiquitous. You can pretty much justify any warrior character having it if they want it.

 

Of course, there's always cinematic brawling.