Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

[ThothAmon]

Title says 75% of it.

 

Western martial arts forms are woefully lacking by comparison to Oriental forms. IRL I'm aware of why this is so. I have some nodding familiarity with wrestling, Scots pseudo martial arts and have seens stats for the various fencing styles (including an Elizabethan fencing / wrestling style) and some of the weapons-oriented bastardisations (e.g. jousting). I'm desirous of avoiding the obvious choices. From a fictional POV I could probably grokk a style for Stealth from 'Thieves World'. And that's about it.

 

So the floor is open to anyone who cares to propose a non-Oriental martial arts style suitable for a fantasy campaign assuming medieval -> Renaissance -> Edwardian technology periods. I've posited a couple of my own in the past for my campaign but I've never been happy with the outcome.

 

I can't be the only GM who would welcome this kind of addition to the game - any takers?

[Curufea]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Hmm, the big problem is lack of documentation. We didn't tend to write up codified styles in the middle ages. The best you can get is fencing and the odd pamphlet for new recruits in standing armies (and standiing armies weren't big in those days either).

 

We can come up with styles that re-enactors use, as actual styles are lost in history.

[Yansuf]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

I do not agree that western martial arts are inferior to eastern ones.

 

Back when I was competing in Judo in the army, we got a ringer for our post team. He was a greaco-roman wrestler, and he was undefeated when we used him as a judoka, even though he was competing under judo rules.

Wrestling is competative with judo or jui-jitsu, if you are not using judo rules.

 

Boxing is very competetive with karate, etc. In modern competition boxers used to beat "martial artists" until they added rules requiring a minimum number of kicks per round. Even so, a modern kick-boxing match looks much closer to a boxing match than a (non-contact) karate tournament.

 

The ancient martial art of Pankretion" (see Ultimate Martial Artist) is western.

 

There were multiple western styles with weapons, but they didn't get special names. But I can tell you from SCA experience that western sword and shield is competative with any oriental weapons style in single combat, and tends to beat them easily in mass combat.

 

For later periods western fencing again tends to defeat kendo, etc. as long as the combatents are wearing little or no armor, which is what the later western fencing styles are based on.

[Curufea]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

I don't think anyone has mentioned any style being inferior to any other.

[Bismark]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Unarmed Western Martial arts I can think of off the top of my head include the Mediaeval German Kampffringen, the Graeco Roman forms (G-R Wresting, G-R Boxing, and my personal favourite - Pankration ) and the Russian Sambo (this last one is roughly equivalent to the Japanese Sumai bone-breaking techniques ).

 

All the above are in the Ultimate Martial Artist, btw (shameless plug here ), as are some of the armed ones (Sevillan knife-fighting etc.).

 

Bearing in mind that people across the globe all have the same number of limbs (unless something has gone horribly wrong ) and their joints move in the same planes, lots of people across the globe independently discovered efficient fighting techniques [the inefficient stuff was weeded out by natural selection in a time when knowing decent fighting moves was essential to continuance of one's own life...].

 

A fully tooled-up veteran/expert knight should actually have a pretty comprehensive set of manoeuvres - armed and unarmed. An interesting early 14th-C knightly martial art was the use of a demi-lance or sword in the one hand and a sparthe (knightly axe) in the other.

 

Also, try out this jolly website: http://www.thearma.org

 

Lots of fun info (and mythbusting - always fun ), plus jolly videos and even occasional free downloads of early Renaissance fighting manuals. I love this stuff (particularly the occasional swipes at the more effete fencing weapons and style, plus the katana myth :thumbup: )

[tkdguy]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

I saw this link while lurking in the GURPS forums.

[tkdguy]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Journal of Western Martial Art

[Markdoc]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

I'm in the minority in believing that there *were* relatively few western martial arts until the renaissance. There is no evidence that anything like organised teaching existed except for a few, rare examples, and we know that transmission of martial knowledge didn't occur much (if at all) in the medieval era, so there was little chance of building up a body of knowledge. I think too many western enthusiasts suffer from "martial arts envy".

 

That doesn't mean I think western fighters were inferior - in a fight between a medieval knight and a contemporary samurai, I'd put money down on the knight in virtually any circumstances. And there were plenty of samurai who felt that martial arts training was no substitute for learning in combat. But to me at least martial arts is a system of training. SCA sword and stick is a martial art. Fencing is a martial art. Knightly combat does not seem to have been, wishful thinking notwithstanding. Knights certainly got weapons training - but it was, as far as we can tell, neither organised nor systematised - and usually not given by a knight. If you got a good, experienced weapons master he might give you some good lessons - or he might not. Either way, there wasn't a school behind him to offer a replacement or alternate approach.

 

But anyway, that's beside the point when it comes to fantasy martial arts. I *like* martial arts and have used plenty of them in my game. There's too many, and they are too culture-specific to go into detail here, but common types are:

 

Light sword. Basically fencing, straight out of UMA, although different schools tend to have an extra secret (for example throwing a concealed knife or similar weapon, when your opponent is distracted).

 

Sword and shield. Basic attacks, with an emphasis on defence (ie: maneuvers that give a DCV bonus). That's mostly to differentiate it from light sword styles, rather than any real-world reason.

 

Greatweapon styles - the exact opposite: a style emphasising hitting as hard and as fast as possible. "Special secrets" include area-affect attacks to mimic the fantasy runaway lawnmower effect. Not just for barbarians, but also for heavily armour knights who rely on their armour to protect them as they slice through opposition.

 

Armoured grappling. Focus on takedown, hold and bind/disarm maneuvers, combined with sword/dagger use - the idea being that it's easier to make a called shot when your opponent is at reduced DCV.

 

Unarmed combat. In general, this is restricted to either people who are not allowed to carry weapons, or people who don't *want* to be seen carrying weapons (like assassins) - the latter tend to be heavy on special maneuvers like killing attacks, eye gouges, nerve strikes, etc.

 

Any and all of these tend to have special powers associated with their style which advanced students can learn - I've given a couple of common examples above, but again, the range is too much to go into here.

 

I'll give a couple of examples. In one area of the campaign, I have the Warguilds. Think of a cross between medieval knightly orders like the Teutonic knights and WH40K space marine chapters: small, very mobile "pocket armies" tooled up with the best armour and weapons magic can produce - giant golem siege engines, ancient suits of armour passed on through the generations and getting ever more magical geegaws added to them as time goes on, flying mounts, etc. Almost all chapters have a martial art that fits with their philosophy of war. So "First in Battle" (whose motto is "Never retreat, never surrender") teaches an armoured greatweapon style that's highly aggressive (including area of effect attacks, letting them mow down large numbers of foes in record time), but also teaches "secret" maneuvers that let a surrounded warrior keep his foes at a distance so he can survive until his comrades reach him (similar to pushback from VA).

 

Another warguild, which also teaches a greatweapon style, focuses instead on killing single, armoured opponents efficiently. Their style is more defensive, making use of the greatweapon's extra reach, but also teaches kicking and takedown techniques like legsweep. Among their secrets are all out defence (Forcewall, with the "must block, must be aware of attack, etc" limitations). They also teach Find Weakness to advanced pupils.

 

This lets me differentiate different schools, even though the weapons used are the same and gives the PC who wants to be a buff martial artist reason to travel and seek out teachers from different schools.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vestnik]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Unarmed Western Martial arts I can think of off the top of my head include the Mediaeval German Kampffringen' date=' the Graeco Roman forms (G-R Wresting, G-R Boxing, and my personal favourite - [i']Pankration[/i] ) and the Russian Sambo (this last one is roughly equivalent to the Japanese Sumai bone-breaking techniques ).

 

Sambo is of 20th-century origin I think, specifically Soviet. I guess it may have had an earlier precursor. AFAIK Sambo is based on Judo, but I may be mistaken.

 

Putin is a Sambo master.

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Where does Savate come in? its western and 18th century

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Here is a fine researched essay and several historical Martial Arts packages for medieval combatants: http://surbrook.devermore.net/herosource/medievalma.html

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

You might also be interested in this overview and detailed design of the real Victorian martial art of Bartitsu: http://www.philm.demon.co.uk/RPGs/Brttsu_H.htm

[Cancer]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

My favorite Western martial art is cannon-fu, as practiced by the Royal Navy (and US Navy, once it came into being) during the late Age of Sail, after about 1580.

[Kristopher]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

The image many have of knights wailing away at each other and using their swords as fancy clubs isn't very accurate.

 

I can't recall the exact details, but one example is a German swordfighting manual intended for teaching combat with two-handers that shows a lot of grappling, using the sword revered and hooking the enemy with the crossguard, techniques for taking your opponent's sword, etc.

[Curufea]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Where does Savate come in? its western and 18th century

 

France

[L. Marcus]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

. . . Western + Savate = interesting saloon fights.

[Bismark]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Sambo is of 20th-century origin I think, specifically Soviet. I guess it may have had an earlier precursor. AFAIK Sambo is based on Judo, but I may be mistaken.

 

Putin is a Sambo master.

 

That was clumsy sentence construction on my part: I should have put Sambo in a different sentence as I am also unsure of its exact time of origin (whereas Kamppfringen is Medaeival and Pankration Classical in origin). The manoeuvres should still be valid as it would surprise me if Sambo was not derived equally as much from Turco-Mongol wrestling arts as Far Eastern ones (and the former were of course in touch with the state of 'Rus' from that state's inception).

[Markdoc]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

The image many have of knights wailing away at each other and using their swords as fancy clubs isn't very accurate.

 

I can't recall the exact details, but one example is a German swordfighting manual intended for teaching combat with two-handers that shows a lot of grappling, using the sword revered and hooking the enemy with the crossguard, techniques for taking your opponent's sword, etc.

 

I don't think anybody is talking about knights just whaling away on each other - but the manuals you refer to (usually called fechtbüche) are from the Renaissance, which is when European martial arts started to take form.

 

It depends on what you mean by martial arts. I don't use it to mean "fights real good" - but to mean a systematic style of teaching combat.

 

At the time fechtbüche were regarded as something revolutionary - a new approach to teaching combat skills - which is why many historians don't think you can really talk of European martial arts before that.

 

Of course, in real life - and in Hero system - that doesn't necessarily mean better. A fighter who spends his points on CSLs and extra STR might not be as flexible as one who buys martial arts, but he's going to be a formidable foe in combat with is favoured weapon.

 

cheers, Mark

[Kristopher]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

I don't think anybody is talking about knights just whaling away on each other - but the manuals you refer to (usually called fechtbüche) are from the Renaissance, which is when European martial arts started to take form.

 

It depends on what you mean by martial arts. I don't use it to mean "fights real good" - but to mean a systematic style of teaching combat.

 

At the time fechtbüche were regarded as something revolutionary - a new approach to teaching combat skills - which is why many historians don't think you can really talk of European martial arts before that.

 

Of course, in real life - and in Hero system - that doesn't necessarily mean better. A fighter who spends his points on CSLs and extra STR might not be as flexible as one who buys martial arts, but he's going to be a formidable foe in combat with is favoured weapon.

 

(Aside: I wasn't attempting to assert that anyone was describing nights wailing away at each other, I was just mentioning it in general as a common belief, even amongst some scholars.)

 

It's possible that the fechtbüche compiled extant techiques and training in a more systemized format, yes?

[Curufea]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

I view it like music.

 

It happened - but it wasn't formalised or written down until the Rennaisance.

 

(ie it was learned by rote)

[Mantis]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

What about all the various martial arts practiced by Roman Gladiators? I saw a program on the Discovery Channel about them, each weapon or weapon combination had a particular fighting style and techniques associated with it. Don't ask me to recall any of them, but it turns out that gladiatorial combats were a lot more subtle than I thought.

[Curufea]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Again, I don't think it was written down. We generally have histories surviving becuase the intellectuals who could write/were literate - were interested in histories. Gladiators didn't write autobiographies as far as I know.

[Bismark]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

What about all the various martial arts practiced by Roman Gladiators? I saw a program on the Discovery Channel about them' date=' each weapon or weapon combination had a particular fighting style and techniques associated with it. Don't ask me to recall any of them, but it turns out that gladiatorial combats were a lot more subtle than I thought.[/quote']

 

We have similar problems regarding the weapons training of the Roman and Romano-Byzantine armies (which probably was formalised, given the level of organisation present in other areas, like logistics, production and tactics/strategy). These methods have not been written down (as far as I am aware), so we are groping in the dark somewhat (with only circumstantial evidence from historians of the time to help us out).

 

Of course, there is the famous tactic stolen from the Germanic tribes by the Romans and used by Julian's army against the Sassanids - charging cavalry with infantry, diving under the horses and hamstringing them. This is sufficiently 'fancy' that it may rate a Martial Arts manoeuvre - note that in Mediaeval times this would have been a pretty suicidal against Knights as their horses were trained in the noble art of dressage (i.e. trampling people underneath them rather than jumping over them as if they were an obstacle).

 

Another place where it would be surprising if there were not formalised training would of course be Sparta (they did of course have the unarmed combat techniques of the Classical tradition - although it is hard to tell how much the average hoplite knew as Pankration is basically a higher form of Dirty Infighting [no-holds-barred-anything-goes stuff]). The accounts of Thermopylae which record the Spartans resorting to biting chunks out of the Persians (when their weapons had broken through wear-and-tear), is probably more desperation than anything else, though.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

IIRC Adventurers Club #17 had a featured article on Roman gladiatorial combat, including appropriate Martial Arts for gladiators, typical weapons and weapon techniques, and background for the various subcategories of gladiators and their specialties. Quite well researched as I recall. I'll have to see if I can dig that up.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Again' date=' I don't think it was written down. We generally have histories surviving becuase the intellectuals who could write/were literate - were interested in histories. Gladiators didn't write autobiographies as far as I know.[/quote']

 

Not generally, but people who observed gladiatorial combat did sometimes record what they saw. That's as close to a primary source as we're likely to get.