Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

I've mentioned before that I've read some interesting papers discussing if various warrior groups found in the European "Mythic Record" might have represented oral tradition records of various early european martial arts styles.

Essentialy, we're talking mostly about semi mystical warrior brotherhoods filling in the west the same niche filled by warrior monks and the like in the east. Mental discipline, intense study and other elements of the shamans path go hand in hand with an element of any warrior culture. I agree that if they existed, they were probably largely undocumented... more like Mystery Cults.

There are all sorts of mythic groups that could be looked at in this fashion to gain inspiration for martial arts in a historical setting. Norse myths are THICK with ideas... Berserks, Ulfwernar, Einherjar, Valkyrie... any could have been real life warrior cults. The Irish have examples too: Fionn's Fianna and Scatha and Aoife's schools for heros and warriors come to mind. Amazons probably would fit this mold as well. It's fertile ground to plow into, but there aren't any real answers to be found that I'm aware of. Makes for great gaming however, and I honestly won't be suprised if at least some evidence of such things is eventually dug up. It just fits far to well into any culture with a Warrior Aristocracy.

[Vestnik]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

That was clumsy sentence construction on my part: I should have put Sambo in a different sentence as I am also unsure of its exact time of origin (whereas Kamppfringen is Medaeival and Pankration Classical in origin). The manoeuvres should still be valid as it would surprise me if Sambo was not derived equally as much from Turco-Mongol wrestling arts as Far Eastern ones (and the former were of course in touch with the state of 'Rus' from that state's inception).

 

Heck, those pesky Mongols RULED Rus', which is why lots of Russian names have Mongol origins (Rimsy-Korsakov, Bukharin, Kutuzov and Akhmatova, to name a few prominent ones) and Russian has many words dealing with commerce and government derived from Mongol and Tatar.

 

What is Turko-Mongol wrestling like? I know nothing about it.

[Bismark]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Heck, those pesky Mongols RULED Rus', which is why lots of Russian names have Mongol origins (Rimsy-Korsakov, Bukharin, Kutuzov and Akhmatova, to name a few prominent ones) and Russian has many words dealing with commerce and government derived from Mongol and Tatar.

 

What is Turko-Mongol wrestling like? I know nothing about it.

 

Well, I could split hairs here - after all, Rus (by which I mean the Kievan Rus state) existed for about 350-400 years before the Mongol invasion, and during that time gave rather powerful steppe nations 'a good kicking' occasionally; they did after all deal the death blow to the Khazar Empire by sacking their twin capitals of Itil and Samander . Of course, the state fell apart and split into competing principalities after about 1000AD (I believe that some rather unworkable land inheritance systems were to blame for much of the trouble - feel free to correct me).

 

They also settled lots of Pechenegs/Patzinaks, Oghuz and other members of the Karakalpak confederation on their borders (I believe the term for them was Svoi Pogyane) to provide a buffer between themselves and considerably less friendly nomads like the Qipjaq/Polovtsy).

 

[As an aside, my DBM Rus wargames army has rarely let me down - though it is third in my affections after my Khazar Empire and T'ang Chinese armies (spot the Dark Ages buff )

 

About all I know about Turco-Mongol wrestling is that serious mismatches used to occur because of the way the contestants were chosen (something like matching contestants' heights rather than weights or somesuch) and that it used to be a lot more vicious than it is now (people getting crippled etc.) - which is what reminded me of Sambo.

[Markdoc]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

It's possible that the fechtbüche compiled extant techiques and training in a more systemized format' date=' yes?[/quote']

 

I'd describe it as more than possible, but even likely. But to me, what seperates martial arts from individual training is the continuing development and consequent improvement of technique. For that, you need continuity, and you need a critical mass.

 

The people who wrote the first fechtbüche revolutionised the process not just because they wrote down and published their knowledge but because we know from contemporary writings that they travelled and collected ideas from other people. In other words, what is represented there is not just the inspiration of a single man, but the collected experiences of many.

 

Once the idea started, it spread like wildfire, with writers collecting *other* writers' books and either incorporating their ideas or (equally important) throwing out the impractical ones (remember some of these books were written by people with no experience of combat and some include maneuvers that would certainly get you killed if you tried using them in combat).

 

Prior to that, I am sure that bright individuals worked out many of the same principles and if they happened to be weaponsmasters (which would be only very few), taught them to their pupils - some of whom may have passed the ideas on, and some not. Through the generations, the ideas may have retained their usefulness, or not. But you can see the process - over time, there's no synthesis, so improvement is hard - and it's up against the inevitable degradation of knowledge through a process of chinese whispers - so and so said this - or maybe that, or...

 

In asian martial arts you see the same process - the most developed martial arts may have come initially from local practices, but they were then formalised and improved in monastic communities and then were disseminated through manuscripts and secular schools. In Japan, the samurai clans - drawing on monsatic practice - formalised weapons training to a degree that did not evolve in the west until much, much later.

 

You can see the same in non-martial arts knowledge as well. Western pneumatics and fluid engineering dates back to at least 500 BC and was continuously improved for half a millenium. Manuals were written and special schools taught it. When that stopped, it didn't advance significantly for 1400 years, even though we know that people continued to work away at the same problems. Without a method for teaching and passing knowledge on apart from word of mouth, what people learned the hard way - by practice - mostly died with them. But when those 1400 year-old texts were translated and reprinted and passed around, things started to move rapidly, because you didn't have to spend 2/3's of your life reconstructing what the people before you had done. Better, people started to add their own improvements, so that over time techniques became more refined.

 

You can apply that to the best way to disengage a blade from a bind as easily as you can to the best way to get breathable air into the lower shafts of a silver mine.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vestnik]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Well, I could split hairs here - after all, Rus (by which I mean the Kievan Rus state) existed for about 350-400 years before the Mongol invasion, and during that time gave rather powerful steppe nations 'a good kicking' occasionally; they did after all deal the death blow to the Khazar Empire by sacking their twin capitals of Itil and Samander . Of course, the state fell apart and split into competing principalities after about 1000AD (I believe that some rather unworkable land inheritance systems were to blame for much of the trouble - feel free to correct me).

 

Supposedly, the Karaite Jews and Crimean Tatars of Ukraine (the latter havinf adopted Islam) are the remnants of the Khazars, as are the Krimchaks in the Caucasus. That's what Solzhenitsyn says in his book on the history of Russo-Jewish relations anyway -- although admittedly he is not a historian and the book is problematic in some respects.

 

My knowledge of that era is fuzzy. My main interest in the "medieval" history of the region has to do with the origin of the Cossacks, and they didn't start to show up until the breakup of the Golden Horde.

 

(This is all off-topic, of course.)

[Markdoc]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Again' date=' I don't think it was written down. We generally have histories surviving becuase the intellectuals who could write/were literate - were interested in histories. Gladiators didn't write autobiographies as far as I know.[/quote']

 

They may not have written, them, but the most famous were celebrities, and were certainly written about. A few even went into politics, when they were freed.

 

We have plenty of sources for early military training (though many, many more are lost) - it always puzzles me that more people have not read them - especially now that most are free on the web. That would answer many of these questions.

 

Anyway, for the Romans, the ultimate authorities are "Epitoma rei militaris", and "De Re Militari" by Vegetius. (I've described his work before on these boards in the predecessor to this thread). He describes legionary training in detail at the high point of their success, with the three books of De Re Militari specifically focussing on training of soldiers (book 1), field operations (book 2) and command and control (book 3). The most important parts of their training were conditioning (running, swimming and weightlifting) followed by line discipline (running in formation, making formation changes in response to signals, forming straight lines) and then construction (digging, mostly for common soldiers - specific duties were done by immunes ). Weapons training *was* given, although it seems to have been considered the least important part of training - most of it involves not sparring, but attacking a wooden pole and learning to thrust, not cut. Unlike other training activities, in some cases at least, combat training was not formalised - legions were allowed to give their weapons training individually or "on the job". An important part of it, emphasised many times, was training with double-weight swords and shields, to build strength. If we are to believe Vegetius, a roman martial arts should have one maneuver - sword thrust (Martial blow, I guess ). You could, based on that, posit a "roman military martial art" I guess, but to me, +3 to STR, +3 to CON, a weapon Fam and one or two CSLs is probably more realistic.

 

With regard to training gladiators, we have, sadly, no primary sources (although there are plenty discussing Gladiators in general - we even have records of their diets), although Vegetius mentions that training by attacking posts and the use of doubleweight weapons was also common for them. I think for Gladiators you can make a case that their training might constitute a martial art. They had trainers (lanistae) who were often former gladiators. An important thing to remember, though, is that gladiators were trained to entertain, not to fight and win a regular combat. A Secutor for example, was armed with a sword, light armour and a shield - but also given a visored helmet deliberately designed to restrict his vision, so that he could not fight *too* effectively. The Murmillo had a large shield and some light protection, but was given only a dagger to fight with, for the same reason.

 

Spartacus's victories are often bought up as a source for the effectiveness of gladitorial training, but it's worth pointing out that the vast majority of Spartacus' troops were *not* gladiators, but field slaves and italian peasants (many of whom had been former soldiers). Perhaps as few as 0.1% of Spartacus' troops were actually gladiators, though the number may have been as high as a few percent.

 

For the Byzantines, we are on much safer grounds, with many contemporary descriptions of training and even a few surviving military manuals. The classic is Maurice's Strategikon, written in the 7th century. Like the roman manuals, emphasis is on discipline, fitness and maneuver. Weapons training is specifically identified as not important. For example, on archery training he writes archers "should be trained to shoot rapidly . . . . Speed is important in shaking the arrow loose and discharging it with force. . .Aim is not essential . . . In fact, even when the arrow is well aimed, firing slowly is useless." In other words, for Maurice, victory in combat relied on effective use of troops, not effective use of weapons. He should know - he won lot of battles and his manual was kept in use and not updated for at least 300 years. From the 6th century we have "Three Byzantine Military Treatises" by an unknown general, which also emphasises speed and volume of fire (although he is not so dismissive of accuracy as Maurice - or Phillippus, if it was him who actually wrote the strategikon). Neither spends too much time on weapons handling in combat, though both emphasise the need for strength training. Later manuals such as Constantinus' from the 10th century simply continue this approach, emphasising steadiness and not breaking ranks and a slow, controlled approach, adding refinements such as signalling with flags. Weapons training was still as basic as in Roman times and still used attacks versus wooden posts or against dummies. If there ever was a Byzantine (or Roman) martial art, the men training and commanding soldiers seemed unaware of it.

 

And finally, the greeks. Here we have no primary sources that directly cover military training or weapons training. We know from Xenophon that there was no organised training anywhere with the exception of Sparta, but Hoplites were by definition middle-class because you had to be able to buy your own gear (Thetes did not fight as Hoplies), so perhaps they organised their own training sessions. They must have done *some* training - fighting with the long spear in formation is not something you'd want to learn as you went along, but there is no indication that individual weapons training was given - many hoplites didn't even bother to carry a sidearm. The Spartiates did get training (and lots of it) but what we know of that refers mostly to conditioning: athletics, running and being cast out into the countryside to "live like a werewolf" for two months. Nothing is specifically mentioned about weapons training, but it must have been given: like the Romans, it simply doesn't seem to have been seen as crucial enough to merit its own description.

For pankration, the situation is similar. We know the Greeks practiced wrestling, boxing and pankration (which is probably the same as boxing). But we know almost nothing about them. There are at least three references to pankration in stories, all of which involve throwing punches, and we have pictures of men punching with hand protection on greek vases. And that's about it. Was it formal enough to qualify as a martial art? I'd be inclined to say yes, given the evidence that handbindings were in use and that boxing and wrestling were sports at the Olympic games. But in reality, right now, we don't know - it could just as easily have been something people practiced in a sporadic fashion, without formal training - after all, that's what they did for running, which was also an olympic sport.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vestnik]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

What the heck was the life expectancy of a gladiator?

 

Sports were for Real Men back then. The stuff nowadays is so pansy by comparison. What we need to do is bring back the blood factor -- put spikes on football players' helmets, intermittently release lions onto the playing field, and so forth. Perhaps the ball can be set to detonate if held for longer than a given period, thereby certainly speeding things up. And we can sacrifice the members of the losing team to the gods, ensuring all-out committment to the game.

[Curufea]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Depends which periods you are talking about. They didn't start out as a celebrity bloodsport. At first it was funereal rites, then came criminals and punishement, finally trainers and schools.

Lest we forget - the Roman Empire lasted over 4 times longer than America was settled by the English.

(okay, technically at some points it was a monarchy and republic as well)

[Markdoc]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

What the heck was the life expectancy of a gladiator?

 

Not good, but then in most cases gladiators were already condemned to die. If your choice was "Crucifixion? On the left, take a cross." or "Gladiator? On the right, there's a wagon to the training camp every 20 minutes", which door would you take?

 

Still, it was not quite as bad as you might think: in many cases, a gladiator might only fight 3 or 4 bouts in a year and even if he lost, there was at least a chance he might get away with a wound, if he entertained the crowd.

 

That said, most gladiators had a life expectancy of only a few months (That's another reason I don't really believe in "gladitorial martial arts"). The whole point after all, was death. The romans didn't just have fights to the death - they also had snuff films (well, snuff plays) in which the condemned man or woman got to play the part of someone who dies in the play. Imagine Romeo and Juliet, but with real swordfights, and at the end, a real knife and real poison.

 

The romans were a brutal bunch of bastiches - as a saying I like goes: "How many other languages even have a specific word for "killed every tenth person?"

 

cheers, Mark

[Vestnik]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

 

That said, most gladiators had a life expectancy of only a few months (That's another reason I don't really believe in "gladitorial martial arts"). The whole point after all, was death. The romans didn't just have fights to the death - they also had snuff films (well, snuff plays) in which the condemned man or woman got to play the part of someone who dies in the play. Imagine Romeo and Juliet, but with real swordfights, and at the end, a real knife and real poison.

 

The romans were a brutal bunch of bastiches - as a saying I like goes: "How many other languages even have a specific word for "killed every tenth person?"

 

cheers, Mark

 

Well, English has "decimate," but then that was the Latin word.

 

If I recall correctly they also had "comedy skits" -- women fighting to the death against dwarves, reenactments of the conception of the Minotaur with a slave girl cast as King Midas' wife and a bull as the Bull of Jupiter (leading to the woman's death). What a nice bunch of people!

[Markdoc]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Well' date=' English has "decimate," but then that was the Latin word. [/quote']

 

Prezackly - we just lifted it from them. They also gave us "annihilate" which means to kill ALL the people

 

If I recall correctly they also had "comedy skits" -- women fighting to the death against dwarves' date=' reenactments of the conception of the Minotaur with a slave girl cast as King Midas' wife and a bull as the Bull of Jupiter (leading to the woman's death). What a nice bunch of people![/quote']

 

Yep - there was a reason the rest of the world was scared of them.

 

cheers, Mark

[L. Marcus]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

I very much doubt their immediate neighbors were better. At least the Romans didn't practice human sacrifice on a regular basis.

[Vestnik]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Human sacrifice is out of religion. Blood sports are for ENTERTAINMENT.

 

I think the Romans are near the bottom of the historical barrel, if one ois judging past societies by modern standards (admittedly a somewhat silly endeavor).

[L. Marcus]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Not "just" entertainment -- it can be argued that gladiatorial combat and all the gruesomeness the Romans got up to was all about keeping the Roman martial spirit alive in a time when it was all to easy to get soft.

[Vestnik]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Not "just" entertainment -- it can be argued that gladiatorial combat and all the gruesomeness the Romans got up to was all about keeping the Roman martial spirit alive in a time when it was all to easy to get soft.

 

Was that deliberate?

 

IIRC it is a central argument in Gibbons' Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (which I have never read, though a highly abridged version of it is on my shelf) that the Romans' adoption of Christianity wussified them to the point that they were no longer up to maintaining the Empire. Although I don't think Christianization interfered with the Games. St. Augustine curses them as frivolous in the Confessions, but does not point out the whole blood sport thing as being sinful itself.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

I have no idea if it was deliberate or not. But what most people think of as gladiatorial combat (not the original funereal games) originated in the late republic, when the people of the city of Rome was practically without any military rivals within easy striking distance.

 

Edit: Also, this was during the time of the end of "citizen" armies and the coming of the professional legionary. Thus ordinary Romans was highly unlikely to experience what makes a man a man -- combat to the death. The gladiatorial games let you experience that at least by proxy.

[ThothAmon]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Intriguing avenues explored so far. Thanks to those who have already posted HERO conversions of r/l arts. I am familiar with the fechtbuche links and so forth but it's always good to have them topped for others.

 

Regards gladiatorial stuff I'd take a skim back through 'The Far Arena' to get a feeling for what might be possible.

 

I was rather hoping to see a few more fictional examples, assuming anyone has bothered to create packages for their own games.

 

When I get a free 30 mins I'll dig out an example of my own and post it here for critique.

[Curufea]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

On the other hand, the Romans invented the legal system we still use today.

[Sir Ofeelya]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Well, English has "decimate," but then that was the Latin word.

 

If I recall correctly they also had "comedy skits" -- women fighting to the death against dwarves, reenactments of the conception of the Minotaur with a slave girl cast as King Midas' wife and a bull as the Bull of Jupiter (leading to the woman's death). What a nice bunch of people!

 

Or condmened prisoners with helmets on their heads with no eye slits who were shoved into the arena to provide comic relief. The crowd shouting "he's on your left, No, your right" as they whaled about blindly. Now, that is where some Defence manouvre and Combat Sense may come in handy - at least until the next intermission when you are needed topside again.

[gojira]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

I think it's a little weird that no one has mentioned Marozzo, Agrippa, di Grassi or others like them yet. Also, don't forget George Silver.

 

There were definately schools of fighting arts in the middle ages. We know from tax records. What they taught I don't think anyone knows. Be careful of a lot of the information you find on the net. A lot of re-enactors don't really know what they are talking about, or have personal axes to grind. SCA "combat" is even more constrained by artificial rules than the eastern martial arts.

 

There's a pretty decent treatement of western martial arts in The Ultimate Martial Artist, do you have that?

 

 

You're thread title says "Comprehensive." How seriously do you mean that? I have a copy of The History of Fencing right here, the author breaks his time line up by century and treats each one hundred years thoroughly before moving on to the next one. There were teachers, schools, and evolving lines of thought all the way through history. I imagine any other martial art must be similar. This could be a really huge research project...

[assault]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Although I don't think Christianization interfered with the Games. St. Augustine curses them as frivolous in the Confessions' date=' but does not point out the whole blood sport thing as being sinful itself.[/quote']

 

From http://www.pbs.org/wnet/warriorchallenge/gladiators/time.html

---

In the end, Christianity dealt the decisive blow to the gladiator games. After Emperor Constantine made the new faith the Roman Empire's official religion in 337 AD, Christian gladiator critics became more outspoken. Their denunciations echoed earlier reservations expressed by emperor (Marcus Aurelius) and intellectual (Cicero, Seneca) alike.

 

The Christian position was influenced, no doubt, by their own experience in the arena. As a religious minority that did not recognize the Roman pantheon, Christians, like Jews, were suspect. Thousands are believed to have died in Rome's Colosseum, burned alive, tied onto racks for lions or leopards to devour, or otherwise used as prey for the wild animal hunts that were an essential part of the games.

 

The limitations on gladiators began slowly, but with great effect. In 200, women gladiators - always a source of debate - were banned from fighting. In 365, humans could no longer be thrown to wild animals - always a spectator high point. The imperial gladiator schools closed 34 years later.

 

In 404 AD, when spectators at the Colosseum killed a Christian named Tetramachus who had tried to stop a gladiator fight, Emperor Honorarius's action was swift: gladiator combat was banned.

 

Popular legend had tied the Colosseum's gladiator games with the survival of Rome. In the years that followed Honorarius' ban, city and arena both declined rapidly. Six years after the ban, barbarians sacked Rome. Eighteen years later, the Colosseum was damaged by an earthquake. Fifty-one years later, vandals sacked the city again. Just over 71 years after Honarius's gladiator ban, the last Roman emperor was deposed and the Roman Empire came finally to an end.

---

 

Comment: "the Roman Empire came finally to an end"? Obviously the Eastern Empire doesn't count...

 

They have a list of references on another page though.

[Kristopher]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

I'm of two minds as to what counts as the fall of the Roman Empire. While the Eastern empire went on for almost a millenium longer, in some ways Rome was the Empire.

[mikesama]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

Flos Dueletorum:

 

Joint Break

Martial Block

Martial Disarm

Martial Escape

Martial Strike

Offensive strike

Takedown

 

WE: Blades

WE: Polearms

WE: Unarmed

WE: Clubs

WE: Staves

 

WF Common Melee Weapons (BTW in a fantasy/Medevil setting staves should really be in this WF tree)

Riding

 

Flos Dueletorum is the semi-official name of the fighting style codified my Fiore De Liberi in the manual of the same name. The manual has 9 sections dealing with wrestling, dagger, arming sword, bastard sword, armored combat, dagger and stick, polearm, mounted combat and disarming. This would probably constitute a 'generic' build for the style.

[Markdoc]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

I think it's a little weird that no one has mentioned Marozzo' date=' Agrippa, di Grassi or others like them yet. Also, don't forget George Silver.[/quote']

 

It's not weird at all - their predecessors have already been mentioned. No-one is arguing that European martial arts didn't start to flourish in the renaissance. But by the time Silver published his book (1599), European armies were all about maximising firepower. Knights and archers had been replaced by pike and shot. The arquebus had already been replaced by the musket and training in hand to hand combat replaced by musket drill. Swordfighting was already well on its way to being a gentleman's accomplishment (like singing, dancing and billiards, for which the first instruction booklets begin to appear about the same time).

 

By that time, the Spanish armada was history, the Turks had been driven from Europe and the seas were dominated by cannon-firing galleons and Galleasses. Conquistadores had not only conquered a big chunk of the New World, but *third* generation Europeans were already being born on the other side of the Atlantic. The first settlers in what would later become the United States were busily building away, while on the other side of the Pacific, Europeans had already set up trading houses in Japan and China. The year Silver published his book was the year, the first large multinational corporation trading on the stock market was launched.

 

George Silver can't be described by any stretch of the imagination as belonging to the medieval world - by then the renaissance is ending and we are into the reformation era. Even Marozzo, Agrippa, di Grassi are well post medieval, although I guess we could (just) claim them as renaissance writers. Certainly they all lived and published after the focus in European warfare had passed to pike and shot and armour, two handed swords and polearms were on their way out.

 

The real debate (not just here, but also in academia) is whether anything approaching a martial art existed in Europe *prior* to the renaissance.

 

There's a pretty decent treatement of western martial arts in The Ultimate Martial Artist' date=' do you have that?[/quote']

 

Yep - but it focuses on post-medieval fighting styles (reasonably enough, since they are the only ones we know anything about).

 

cheers, Mark

[L. Marcus]

Re: Wanted - Comprehensive Western Martial Arts Design

 

. . . A little aside: Swordfighting continued to be practiced on the battlefield by the swedish soldiers called Carolinians (roughly during the latter half of the 1600s). While most of the armies of the continent were conscripts, trained almost exclusively in firearms and musket drills, the Carolinians were pros, and their tactics consisted of closing ranks with the opposition and go HtH on their asses.