Secret IDs: In or Out?

[David Johnston]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

The secret ID does seem to be on it's way out' date=' largely due to it not being very plausible. But at the same time, I think that the companies have dealt very poorly with the ramifications of such, at least they haven't done so in a realistic manner. That's always been the problem. A secret ID isn't terribly realistic, but to realistically deal with the result if everyone had a public ID does not necessarily make for good storytelling. After all, how often can you kidnap the character's girlfriend? How many family members can you kill? before it just gets old and no one wants to read it (to say nothing of what it would do to the character's psyche and social life). Yet those kinds of occurrences should logically be very common if everyone had a public ID. [/quote']

 

Er...why? No, seriously. Some people have gotten into the habit of thinking that it would be "realistic" for criminals to track down a superhero's spouse or girlfriend and stuff her into a refrigerator, but it isn't. Why would someone want to provoke an opponent with superpowers into killing them? What's the benefit to them? Just the thrill of being eeeeevil? I think Green Goblins and Jokers should be few and far between. And I think your PCs should be able to lock them up with a reasonable expectation that they will usually stay locked up for extended periods of time. And on the rare occasions when when the freaking loons do manage to get back out on the street for a while, they go back to doing what their mental problem tells them they have to do. If that's killing blonde-haired college student, Gwen Stacy may be in particular danger, but my heros are going to know that and are going take appropriate precautions to protect her. Which is, incidentally, far easier if Gwen knows just who the heck her boyfriend is and why she might be in danger from that serial killer he slung into the poorly secured hoosegow. Most of my villains, though, want wealth, or power, or fame or service to an ideological or religious cause. They don't want to die. They want to win. If someone wants their DNPC to end up in constant danger, it's going to be because that DNPC has a Lois Lane-like fondness for putting herself there, and it won't matter whether their superheroic friend has secret, no, or public ID.

[assault]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

And while I'm on the subject' date=' did anyone else ever wonder about the "Kandor Look-A-Like Squad?" I mean, there are several Kryptonians who look just like Superman and his friends and family, and they all just happen to live in Kandor? Come on![/quote']

 

Well.... as we all know, Kryptonians were heavily into cloning....

 

Or at least that would be the kind of approach I would take to explaining this. Of course the real answer was the "written for 8 year olds" one.

 

But then, a lot of this "written for 8 year olds" stuff sucked less than a lot of the more "mature" garbage coming out these days.

[Balabanto]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

That's because "Written for Eight Year Olds" was actually written on two levels. One for the young kids, and one for an older audience.

 

These days, there's so much regulating that in the comics, it's very hard to get good writing done.

 

But to stay on topic, I really do feel that the secret ID has a place in any game, and that that transformation into an icon or a legend really does mean something special.

 

Heck, that's what Mind over Matter is all about, right here, the debate on this thread.

 

So I hope I've stoked your jones for that little project, and, of course...

 

Excelsior!

[Vestnik]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

That's because "Written for Eight Year Olds" was actually written on two levels. One for the young kids, and one for an older audience.

 

Hence Supergirl and her husband, the horse. The writers must have been laughing themselves silly over that one.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

These days' date=' there's so much regulating that in the comics, it's very hard to get good writing done.[/quote']Regulating? Does any comic publisher still adhere to the Comics Code (which was voluntary anyway)? Are you sure you didn't accidentally type "regulating" when you meant to type "retconning"?

 

I haven't read comics seriously for almost 20 years, but I suspect part of the problem is the same thing that haunts 24-hour news networks: There's this incessant need for major headline stories. So "ordinary" stories just don't cut it any more - they've got to constantly upstage what's happened before. And since comic publishers can't regularly kill off their meal tickets and keep the titles (and money) going, they have to keep rewriting them and so the rewrites get steadily more and more outré.

[Tech]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Actually, I was thinking more about the sociological aspect of it.

 

In a "realistic" game, I think most of us agree that keeping a Secret ID requires a lot of effort, far more than slipping into a convenient phonebooth or back alley to change. Secret IDs were more plausible in the Golden age, and even the Silver Age. In my opinion, in the Contemprary Age, the only reason the Secret IDs can be kept RELATIVELY easily is out of homage to the original genre.

 

The follow up question is how much of a disadvantage it should be. If the Secret ID forces you to become paranoid by going to extreme lengths to conceal it, it's not just 15 pts. IE, the reason it's still just a 15 pt social limitation is because of the latitude that the genre convention allows

 

In that vein, that depends on how realistic a game you play. Even in a 'realistic' game with supers (isn't that an oxymoron?), the same technology used to try to crack a Secret Identity can be used to protect it. It really depends on the type of campaign a GM is in.

[Shaft]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

the same technology used to try to crack a Secret Identity can be used to protect it.

 

That technology is usually more accessible to the wealthier heroes. Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne can easily use their resources and lifestyle to lead a double life discretely. Peter Parker might have a harder time for it.

 

In some ways, sponsorship (whether through a private backer or a team)makes it easier to maintain that secret ID. You end up trusting a few select people, but get access to their resources and help in many things, including maintaining the Secret ID (as I recall, Batman passing himself off as Clark Kent or Superman while Superman himself was in the other identidy was a classic ploy in the Silver Age to keep the likes of Lois from getting suspicious).

 

Of course it makes me wonder what the risk of heroes losing touch with the poorer classes might be? Would Daredevil still look out for Hell's Kitchen primarily if he spent a fair amount of time at the Avenger's mansion regularly?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Some people have gotten into the habit of thinking that it would be "realistic" for criminals to track down a superhero's spouse or girlfriend and stuff her into a refrigerator, but it isn't. Why would someone want to provoke an opponent with superpowers into killing them? What's the benefit to them? Just the thrill of being eeeeevil? I think Green Goblins and Jokers should be few and far between. And I think your PCs should be able to lock them up with a reasonable expectation that they will usually stay locked up for extended periods of time. And on the rare occasions when when the freaking loons do manage to get back out on the street for a while, they go back to doing what their mental problem tells them they have to do.

*********************************************************

Most of my villains, though, want wealth, or power, or fame or service to an ideological or religious cause. They don't want to die. They want to win. If someone wants their DNPC to end up in constant danger, it's going to be because that DNPC has a Lois Lane-like fondness for putting herself there, and it won't matter whether their superheroic friend has secret, no, or public ID.

 

Wealth? Why do they rob banks instead of working for drug lords? And don't drug lords threaten violence? "Your character opens the unlabelled envelope. It contains several pictures of his wife and daughter at various public locations. Another photo at each location shows a masked individual throwing bursts of flame from his hands at the place that his family stood in the previous picture. Finally, there is a typewritten note that says 'For their safety, stay out of the Cartel's business'. What does your character do?"

 

The message seems fairly obvious, and if the hero in question does keep interfering, presumably the Cartel will have to act to send a message to any other costumed do-gooders. That way, the next note can say "Think of what happened to Mrs. Splendidman - do you want your family to be next?"

 

Sure, villains making their bucks from drug lords isn't genre-consistent. But it is considerably more realistic than villains who rob banks in a very public manner. If we're making identity secrecy more realistic, shouldn't we spruce up the rest of the genre staples as well?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Well, the existence of drug lords doesn't seem to have made bank-robbers extinct. Some people just prefer to be self-employed.

 

Besides, the self-image of bank robbers - especially if they have the powers to rob banks without killing anyone - wouldn't necessarily be the same as that of someone whose employer makes a living pushing drugs to kids.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Well.... as we all know, Kryptonians were heavily into cloning....

 

Or at least that would be the kind of approach I would take to explaining this. Of course the real answer was the "written for 8 year olds" one.

 

But then, a lot of this "written for 8 year olds" stuff sucked less than a lot of the more "mature" garbage coming out these days.

Yeah, but even when I was 8 years old, I thought it was kind of stupid. I at least wondered why he didn't have at least one of his robots active 24/7. More on topic: Secret IDs are a 4-color staple. Whether it works in the game or not depends on the campaign. In my games, all PCs either have a Public ID or a Secret ID. Just being a superhero makes you a public figure, and if you don't take at least some measure to disguise yourself, then anybody who is interested can find out who you really are: "You know Mr. Ultra? What was his real name again? Nevermind, I'll just Google it."

[Weldun]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Yeah' date=' but even when I was 8 years old, I thought it was kind of stupid. I at least wondered why he didn't have at least one of his robots active 24/7. More on topic: Secret IDs are a 4-color staple. Whether it works in the game or not depends on the campaign. In my games, all PCs either have a Public ID or a Secret ID. Just being a superhero makes you a public figure, and if you don't take at least some measure to disguise yourself, then anybody who is interested can find out who you really are: "You know Mr. Ultra? What was his real name again? Nevermind, I'll just Google it."[/quote']Problem. What if we take the situation of a Superhero who nobody even knows the existence of. At the start of my current campaign, the only people who even knew that Zero, the team's mentalist, even existed were the party members. And they didn't mention him to anybody. How then does he warrant a Secret ID or Public ID, based on that information alone. (As a side note, he actually had a Secret ID, because he had three hunteds. And as the disad says, somebody has to care who you are. But for the sake of the exercise, let's assume he got his points elsewhere, as it is possible.)

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Problem. What if we take the situation of a Superhero who nobody even knows the existence of. At the start of my current campaign' date=' the only people who even knew that Zero, the team's mentalist, even existed were the party members. And they didn't mention him to anybody. How then does he warrant a Secret ID or Public ID, based on that information alone. (As a side note, he actually had a Secret ID, because he had three hunteds. And as the disad says, somebody has to care who you are. But for the sake of the exercise, let's assume he got his points elsewhere, as it is possible.)[/quote']

In my campaign, Secret ID. Not only doesn't he tell everybody that he is Zero, he doen't even admit that Zero exists. But, OTOH, I hate superhero characters like that. Not to knock your character, but as a GM, I always go for more 4-color games. The DC Animated Universe is a great example of what I would like my games to feel like. Never seems to work out that way, though.

[Weldun]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Not my C. I'm the GM. But, I decided to take you viewpoint onboard and reread the the Disad. The part about someone have to give a S*** is no longer relavent. I have to agree with your take on it, wrestlinggeek.

 

For those who haven't read it closely in a while, here's how it is in 5ER.

Secret Identity: The character maintains a secret identity of some sort (for example, a superhero with a costumed crimefighter persona and a normal, everyday, identity): Frequently, Major (there is a risk that the identity will be exposed, which in turn exposes the character and his loved ones to attack or other problems): 15 points (or Severe [20 points] if the character has a large number of of enemies who want to kill or maim him.)

So. It doesn't matter how easily discovered one's identity is, or if anyone even cares (in fact, if enough people care in the wrong way, it's worth more). Public ID is for people who are well known to the public for some reason, with information about him easily located.

 

So, while a secret ID that is poorly maintained could possibly become a public ID, until it does, and so long as the character is trying to maintain a separate ID, the disad fits.

[Tech]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

That technology is usually more accessible to the wealthier heroes. Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne can easily use their resources and lifestyle to lead a double life discretely. Peter Parker might have a harder time for it.

 

In some ways, sponsorship (whether through a private backer or a team)makes it easier to maintain that secret ID. You end up trusting a few select people, but get access to their resources and help in many things, including maintaining the Secret ID (as I recall, Batman passing himself off as Clark Kent or Superman while Superman himself was in the other identidy was a classic ploy in the Silver Age to keep the likes of Lois from getting suspicious).

 

Of course it makes me wonder what the risk of heroes losing touch with the poorer classes might be? Would Daredevil still look out for Hell's Kitchen primarily if he spent a fair amount of time at the Avenger's mansion regularly?

 

It still depends on the type of genre and/or campaign you run. Marvel's comics and DC's comics are not going to be my guidebook to how to run my campaign or anyone else's.. unless they want it that way, natch.

 

Don't get me wrong, Shaft. I agree with you, on the basis of how comics are going and those GM's who follow those trends. However, any campaign can have a campaign where that type of technology simply doesn't exist, it's not accessible to the general public or a bizillion other reasons why heroes with Secret Id's aren't bothered by technology. I mean, we are talking about non-realistic concepts like superpowers here so while we're having fun with superpowers, physics about superpowers and so on, let's have some fun with the world, technology and everything else and make the playable world according to the player and GM's desires.

[David Johnston]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Wealth? Why do they rob banks instead of working for drug lords? And don't drug lords threaten violence? "Your character opens the unlabelled envelope. It contains several pictures of his wife and daughter at various public locations. Another photo at each location shows a masked individual throwing bursts of flame from his hands at the place that his family stood in the previous picture. Finally, there is a typewritten note that says 'For their safety, stay out of the Cartel's business'. What does your character do?"

 

The message seems fairly obvious, and if the hero in question does keep interfering, presumably the Cartel will have to act to send a message to any other costumed do-gooders. That way, the next note can say "Think of what happened to Mrs. Splendidman - do you want your family to be next?"

 

Sure, villains making their bucks from drug lords isn't genre-consistent. But it is considerably more realistic than villains who rob banks in a very public manner. If we're making identity secrecy more realistic, shouldn't we spruce up the rest of the genre staples as well?

 

Frankly? Superheroes don't inconvenience "drug lords" enough for it to be worth provoking one that way. Superheros get involved when the supervillains fighting over the drug trade get too obvious in their fights, endangering bystanders and that's about it. Actually killing Mrs. Splendidman naturally leads to Splendidman popping Mr. Boss's head like a zit. Threatening to kill Mrs. Splendidman without intending to follow through just attracts his attention to you and your people and reduces his interest in playing by rules of law. Don't tug on Splendidman's cape.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Frankly? Superheroes don't inconvenience "drug lords" enough for it to be worth provoking one that way. Superheros get involved when the supervillains fighting over the drug trade get too obvious in their fights' date=' endangering bystanders and that's about it. Actually killing Mrs. Splendidman naturally leads to Splendidman popping Mr. Boss's head like a zit. Threatening to kill Mrs. Splendidman without intending to follow through just attracts his attention to you and your people and reduces his interest in playing by rules of law. Don't tug on Splendidman's cape.[/quote']IOW, the kind of superheroes who would get down on drug lords are the kind of superheroes who could be reasonably threatened by the resources available to drug lords. We don't see the Avengers or Justice League smashing the Cali Cartel - we see Daredevil and Iron Fist dealing with drug dealers in country; and the drug lords hiring super-muscle to deal with the costumed annoyances.

 

Seems equitable to me. Leave Lois Lane alone; sell your drugs free of interference from the Man of Steel. Kill her; and Superman wipes out your entire billion-dollar organization in 15 minutes. Most crime lords will choose option #1.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Frankly? Superheroes don't inconvenience "drug lords" enough for it to be worth provoking one that way. Superheros get involved when the supervillains fighting over the drug trade get too obvious in their fights' date=' endangering bystanders and that's about it. Actually killing Mrs. Splendidman naturally leads to Splendidman popping Mr. Boss's head like a zit. Threatening to kill Mrs. Splendidman without intending to follow through just attracts his attention to you and your people and reduces his interest in playing by rules of law. Don't tug on Splendidman's cape.[/quote']

 

In the comics, those high powered Supers never get involved with drug lords or foreign nations researching nuclear weapons. If you want more realism, though, don't you think Uncle Sam would hire (if not draft) powerful metahumans to serve in the "War on [insert cause of choice - 'Drugs' or 'Terror' might be good options]"? Wouldn't those other nations draft their metahumans as well? Would we not see several decide that working illegally for the Cartel is more lucrative than their legal options?

 

If you want "realism", don't just stop at glasses that hide the wearer's super-humanity.

[David Johnston]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

In the comics' date=' those high powered Supers never get involved with drug lords or foreign nations researching nuclear weapons. If you want more realism, though, don't you think Uncle Sam would hire (if not draft) powerful metahumans to serve in the "War on [insert cause of choice - 'Drugs' or 'Terror' might be good options']"?

 

Yup. And that's two of my solid options for secret identities as standard parts of the universe, people having them because it is second nature for the government to keep secrets or to dodge some kind of governmental draft.

[Shaft]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

It still depends on the type of genre and/or campaign you run. Marvel's comics and DC's comics are not going to be my guidebook to how to run my campaign or anyone else's.. unless they want it that way, natch.

 

Don't get me wrong, Shaft. I agree with you, on the basis of how comics are going and those GM's who follow those trends. However, any campaign can have a campaign where that type of technology simply doesn't exist, it's not accessible to the general public or a bizillion other reasons why heroes with Secret Id's aren't bothered by technology. I mean, we are talking about non-realistic concepts like superpowers here so while we're having fun with superpowers, physics about superpowers and so on, let's have some fun with the world, technology and everything else and make the playable world according to the player and GM's desires.

 

Hmm, ironically enough, I suspect that the movie renditions of our favorite characters and television shows like Heroes will start to have more of an impact on the superhero genre than the ongoing storylines in the comics. The comics are stuck with a lot of legacy baggage (this can be good and bad) while the TV shows and movies can be more internally consistent, and independant of one another. Mind you, the interconnectivity of comics can be one its appealing elements if it is done well.

 

Oh look, I've opened a new can of worms... Ummm what I meant to say was that I like Secret IDs! Yes, that is what I meant to say!

[incrdbil]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

I think this just represents the increasing defectiveness of modern comics, their generally laughable writing and poor characterization. I guess they'll want to do away with costumes next, and they've been off and on about actually dumping tyhe very idea of heroism for a bit in some titles.

 

The main trend I see in comics is aiming at eight year olds maturity level.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

I think this just represents the increasing defectiveness of modern comics' date=' their generally laughable writing and poor characterization. I guess they'll want to do away with costumes next, and they've been off and on about actually dumping tyhe very idea of heroism for a bit in some titles.[/quote']

 

Back in the early '70's, before the New X-Men and after the original run ended, there was a pitch to bring them back without costumes, more as an espionage-type series. A Marvel Team-Up isssue was used as a tryout. Part of the theory was that these characters were distinctive enough without costumes so the reader would never have trouble figuring out who was who.

[Balabanto]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Without the costumes, there's really no point in running a Superhero game. You have a game of superbeings, but it's not a superhero game. Even a uniform is technically a costume.

 

To get back to what I was saying earlier, I think that if we want to reverse this trend, we need to run, write and publish adventures (See some of my stuff in Digital Hero) that address many of these issues directly. If we don't CREATE dumb stories, we will create a MARKET for good ones, because the same people that play the superhero games are often the biggest fans of comics in addition.

 

Look for Unkindness, probably next Halloween, an adventure which really takes your moral dilemmas and spins them.

 

The problem with modern comics is that there is no moral dilemma. There is no question of what decision the hero should make. A lot of times, the hero makes the right choice. But SOMETIMES...the hero makes the wrong one.

 

The problem is that when you make a game like this, if the mistake is severe enough, what do you do? I know what I would do given half a chance. I'd write and run Mind over Matter (Which is being playtested even as we speak...heh...heh...heh...)

[RDU Neil]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

In my opinion, without secret ID's, the Superhero Genre falls apart. Allow me to explain this, both as my literate master's degree in English Literature self, and as only the Brawling Balabanto can!!!!

 

A secret ID creates the illusion that the hero is someone else. This illusion is both perceptual, and occasionally psychological. For some superheroes, their personality may change completely when they "Transform" into their hero ID, even if it's just something as simple as putting on a costume.

 

Removing the secret ID removes the illusion, it makes the hero exactly who they appear to be, revealing their relationships, flaws, and disadvantages as well as highlighting their natural strengths. Is it more or less heroic, that's for you, the GM or the player, to decide.

 

BUT...

 

The illusion of the Superhero is what is actually important, regardless of the heroicness of the individual character. If I am "Partacel" and my father dies, and no one, with the exception of a few people in the government, know who he is, I take up his mantle and I BECOME him. And no one is the wiser.

 

As long as the concept of the mask is present, barring an inabilty to have a secret ID, it is possible for the hero to metamorphose into something more. And that is when a HERO becomes a LEGEND. An ICON, something greater than himself or herself. And it is this that formulates the concept of the secret identity. The idea that when the character puts on that mask, they become the REPRESENTATION of something that is good, that is true, that is right, that is wholly representative of that which is ideal. Read Nietzsche's Man and Superman, which a lot of these ideas come out of.

 

And this is why bringing too much realism into the whole business stinks. Because realism, folks, isn't real. It's just realism. It's a philosophy, almost akin to a religion, like Kant's belief in the supernoumenal (Also important here), or the very churches and temples and mosques that many of you go to to pray each day.

 

Stan Lee understood this, true believers, and that's why he used to call people true believers all the time. Because he KNEW. He understood that the calling to be a hero frequently meant that you would have to hide that secret from the people closest to you, not only for their own safety, but because the very nature of that heroism depended on the doubt and wonder of who was behind that mask.

 

So embrace the secret identity. Because like it or not, whether you want to admit it or not, we all have one inside somewhere.

 

While I totally agree with many of the points here (repped by the way)... I utterly despise this psychology.

 

This is a pop culture version of the despicable concept of faith. It is saying that the "belief" in something is greater than the truth of the thing. While I agree that can be true, I despise this part of humanity... the part that requires this icon, this extra-normal force... this external object to believe in that is the basis of religion. It is not strength, but the weakest, most intellectually bankrupt aspect of humanity.

 

I have no desire to replicate or support that concept in my role playing... any more than I wish to support faith or religion in the real world. This is why I love Hero... because it rationalizes these concepts and makes us say, "Hmmm... perhaps many of these superhero schticks really are kind of silly and unacceptable when you look at them logically." Hero is a game that by its nature, requires a rational, logical deconstruction of desired play in order to facilitate play... thus it begs the question of all the illogical genre bits in the source material.

 

The secret ID is an ode to the mystique. I just don't think the mystique is something I'm keen on supporting.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Without the costumes' date=' there's really no point in running a Superhero game. You have a game of superbeings, but it's not a superhero game. [/quote']

 

 

Exactly... and I've always thought that super beings were much more interesting that super heroes (to use your terms.)

 

Hero as a system helped me define this thought process within myself in 25 years of using it. I will forever be indebted to the game system for that.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

I've actually never been impressed by the whole "hero as an idea" argument. It just sounds like hypnobabble meant for the masses who think it's nifty and new, when it's not.

 

I've never thought of heroes in such a light. However, I have thought of it in the terms of that what makes hero so significant is what we read into them, BECAUSE we don't know them. But this isn't limited to just "superheroes." We do the same thing to celeberities, rock stars, etc.

 

Basically, if we like one aspect of them, then we tend to create a fantasy version of them to fill in what we don't know. Sometimes, we are disappointed by the reality.