Solidification

[BobGreenwade]

If a character has Inherent Desolidification, how does one make him solid again?

 

Specifically: what's the best way to build a "containment suit" for an Az'arc'a to allow it to interact with the real world? The suit wearer wouldn't just be able to apply STR (Affects Real World), but would also be no longer able to pass through solid barriers, take STUN from average attacks, and such.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Solidification

 

I would actually do some weird trick with Multiform, with one form designated as the solid one, one with the Always On Inherent Desolidification, with a limitation that the condition and availability of the suit determines if the power can work ... for example, if the suit gets destroyed, or he has to leave it behind to go through a wall or something, he can't easily reactivate the power.

[GreyGuardian]

Re: Solidification

 

instead of always on for the desol make the limitation always when not in containment suit. The amount of the limitation would depend on how often the containment suit is denied to the critter. If it is rarely able to use the suit then it would probably be the same as always on. If it was forced to stay in the containment suit then it might be 1/4 more and if it had free choice as to the use of the suit then 1/4 less than normal always on.

[Steve]

Re: Solidification

 

I think you could legally do it by buying off the Always On Limitation as a naked Advantage, then limiting that with OIF. I'm not sure of the points, but it feels about right.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Solidification

 

I think you could legally do it by buying off the Always On Limitation as a naked Advantage' date=' then limiting that with OIF. I'm not sure of the points, but it feels about right.[/quote']

 

Yes, this is a classic construct that's legal under Fifth Edition. You find the number of points that you save on the Power construct by taking the Always On Limitation, add that number of points to the character's sheet (essentially "buying off" Always On), then Limit those points as appropriate to the SFX of the means of shutting off the Power.

 

Multiform and reduced Limitation for Always On would also be appropriate, as well as Self-Only Suppress (probably with Standard Effect so that you can gauge how much would make it function reliably), although if the Az'arc'a's Desolid is Inherent, Suppress technically wouldn't work.

[OddHat]

Re: Solidification

 

Yes, this is a classic construct that's legal under Fifth Edition. You find the number of points that you save on the Power construct by taking the Always On Limitation, add that number of points to the character's sheet (essentially "buying off" Always On), then Limit those points as appropriate to the SFX of the means of shutting off the Power.

 

This is the method I've always used; clean and simple. As an added bonus, breaking the containment suit counts as breaking the focus, so you can have the classic bit where the character's containment suit breaks and they discorporate without any fiddling around.

[pinecone]

Re: Solidification

 

If a character has Inherent Desolidification, how does one make him solid again?

 

Specifically: what's the best way to build a "containment suit" for an Az'arc'a to allow it to interact with the real world? The suit wearer wouldn't just be able to apply STR (Affects Real World), but would also be no longer able to pass through solid barriers, take STUN from average attacks, and such.

 

I'd buy it as affects real world on STR, with a OIF....not being able to take the suit with you when you walk through stuff is just part of the LIM. You can go through wall.....you just have to leave your suit behind to do it.....if you want to take damage while in suit etc...then I'd recomend Multi-form or some physical lim(s) as well.....

[SpydirShellX]

Re: Solidification

 

How about a summon vehicle affects real world?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Solidification

 

END, my friend

 

Inherent does not necessarily imply 'always on'. If it does not have that limitation then you can, following the rules for inherent, just pay END to turn it off.

 

Desolid 40 points.

0 end +1/2

Persistent +1/2

Inherent +1/4

 

Total cost 90 points

 

END cost to turn off? Not defined, so make it up: at least, 9 END, maybe 18 END? Something like that?

 

You could build the suit as some sort of END battery with th epower only working off that.

 

Maybe.

 

If you have bought 'always on', well, I have less sympathy. END cost shoots up to 45 points (count 'em) and you reduce the value of the limtiation to -1/4, or require concentration or somesuch, again, by the book under 'always on'.

 

Whilst the 'buying the limitation back as a focus' is elegant, it enormously reduces the value of the limtiation in the first place, so I'd be wary of going that route.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Solidification

 

Just to clarify, Bob is specifically looking at applying this construct to an official Hero Universe alien race, the Az'arc'a: beings composed of energy who are naturally intangible (Desolid, 0 END Persistent, Inherent, Always On). They also have various energy-based Powers with "Affects Physical World."

 

You can read their writeup near the bottom of this webpage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Solidification

 

Just to clarify, Bob is specifically looking at applying this construct to an official Hero Universe alien race, the Az'arc'a: beings composed of energy who are naturally intangible (Desolid, 0 END Persistent, Inherent, Always On). They also have various energy-based Powers with "Affects Physical World."

 

You can read their writeup near the bottom of this webpage.

 

Cool.

 

One thing: I wouldn't do this as a containment suit: it makes little sense that the Az'arc'a inside a suit would be affected by anything that penetrated the suit if they would not be affected outside of it. Bullet penetrates suit, passes THROUGH the (still immaterial) Az'arc'a inside, then out the other side...

 

How about something like the solid light hologram device from Voyager (or Red Dwarf): a mechanical device that in some way converts energy to matter or sets up a pattern of vibrations and waves that are in effect solid: when the 'physical form' is damaged it damages the pattern and that damage can stay with the Az'arc'a even if it converts back into energy form. Of course that device could take the form of a suit....

 

If you do go with the END option, the suit is just a battery: an energy patterner that uses power to 'solidify' the Az'arc'a, and that power has a finite limit.

 

I note that the Az'arc'a have bought their desolid as 'always on' - that limtiation really should be reduced or removed if they have access to 'containmet suits'.

 

Also I note the Az'arc'a have 0 STR, which may beceome a problem if they do want to lug a suit around.

 

The other, rather esoteric option is to cheat. Buy a vehicle or automaton as their physical body and then all they need is some sort of communication power that can effect the real world, and you are away. Build in a damage feedback disaddvantage tot eh vehicle/automaton cost so that the animating Az'arc'a is harmed by 'psionic feedback' (or whatever) if the vehicle/automaton is harmed and Bob (Greenwade) is your uncle.

 

You could even use summon, I suppose. If a material person can summon the immaterial, can an immaterial summoner summon the material without the +2 advantage? Dunno.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Solidification

 

Cool.

 

One thing: I wouldn't do this as a containment suit: it makes little sense that the Az'arc'a inside a suit would be affected by anything that penetrated the suit if they would not be affected outside of it. Bullet penetrates suit, passes THROUGH the (still immaterial) Az'arc'a inside, then out the other side...

 

Well, how about "bullet hits suit, kinetic energy of impact transmitted through interfaces that allow the Az'arc'a to control the suit? Bullet penetrates suit, containment material/circuitry disrupts its energy matrix causing BODY damage?"

 

How about something like the solid light hologram device from Voyager (or Red Dwarf): a mechanical device that in some way converts energy to matter or sets up a pattern of vibrations and waves that are in effect solid: when the 'physical form' is damaged it damages the pattern and that damage can stay with the Az'arc'a even if it converts back into energy form. Of course that device could take the form of a suit....

 

And so these are the Special Effects, which don't necessarily impact how the suit is built.

 

I note that the Az'arc'a have bought their desolid as 'always on' - that limtiation really should be reduced or removed if they have access to 'containmet suits'.

 

That's certainly another way to do it; but the "Always On buy-off" method readily lends itself to the Focus Limitation, or any other Lim reflecting the SFX of shutting off the Power, coming into play.

 

Also I note the Az'arc'a have 0 STR' date=' which may beceome a problem if they do want to lug a suit around.[/quote']

 

Which of course is not the same as no Strength at all.

[SpydirShellX]

Re: Solidification

 

Hmmm.... what would happen if you use a Desolidification when you were already desolidified.

If you could presume (in otherwords, if the GM permits) that that would make you desolid to the desolid universe and back 'solid.' Buy that as a focus and give it only to Solidify(-1).

[zornwil]

Re: Solidification

 

Mechanically, the only trump card for Inherent is Transform.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Solidification

 

Inherent does not necessarily imply 'always on'.

It sort of does. Per the rulebook' date=' the [i']Always On[/i] Limitation is a requirement for the Inherent Advantage.

I think you could legally do it by buying off the Always On Limitation as a naked Advantage' date=' then limiting that with OIF. I'm not sure of the points, but it feels about right.[/quote']This looks like it'll be the way to go. I just hate the math for it, is all....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Solidification

 

It sort of does. Per the rulebook' date=' the [i']Always On[/i] Limitation is a requirement for the Inherent Advantage.

 

It isn't: the rules say that always on MAY be appropriate but certainly do not require it, in fact the rules then go on to describe how you can turn off an inherent power, which you would not be able to do (at least nowhere near so easily) if the power was always on.

 

This looks like it'll be the way to go. I just hate the math for it' date=' is all....[/quote']

 

The problem with having a way to turn off an always on power is also described int eh rule book - it changes the value of the always on limtiation if it is not an absolute prohibition.

 

Either these beasties shouldn't be able to become solid, or should not have the 'always on' limitation for their desolid.

 

Calculating cost is not too much of a problem: 40 points of desolid always on and 0 END cost 80 active points. Inherent saves you 16 points (real cost 64 points) so the suit costs 11 points for the ability to cancel 'always on'.

 

The problem is that the power is not then always on, so the limitation is not an absolute prohibition and should be worth -1/4 at best.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Solidification

 

The problem with having a way to turn off an always on power is also described int eh rule book - it changes the value of the always on limtiation if it is not an absolute prohibition.

 

Either these beasties shouldn't be able to become solid, or should not have the 'always on' limitation for their desolid.

 

Calculating cost is not too much of a problem: 40 points of desolid always on and 0 END cost 80 active points. Inherent saves you 16 points (real cost 64 points) so the suit costs 11 points for the ability to cancel 'always on'.

 

The problem is that the power is not then always on, so the limitation is not an absolute prohibition and should be worth -1/4 at best.

 

Well, as I see it the issue is part mechanical, part philosophical and part esthetic. If you reduce the value of the Always On Limitation the character has to pay more Character Points than if Always On was at full effect, but less than if there was no Limitation. If you buy off Always On and put a Limit on those points then the character also has to pay more points than if Always On was at full effect, but less than if there was no Limitation. In practical terms the end result is essentially the same, and from a rules point of view both approaches are equally valid. Each one has its own "feel" and would be run a little differently, so it comes down to which approach works better for the individual player and GM.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Solidification

 

Well, how about "bullet hits suit, kinetic energy of impact transmitted through interfaces that allow the Az'arc'a to control the suit? Bullet penetrates suit, containment material/circuitry disrupts its energy matrix causing BODY damage?"

 

 

 

And so these are the Special Effects, which don't necessarily impact how the suit is built.

 

 

 

That's certainly another way to do it; but the "Always On buy-off" method readily lends itself to the Focus Limitation, or any other Lim reflecting the SFX of shutting off the Power, coming into play.

 

 

 

Which of course is not the same as no Strength at all.

 

All good points. I think the sfx is important though and should be as logical as possible: I can think of ways to make that so with a containment suit, but I wanted to point out that was not the only way. Probably unnecessary with someone of Mr Greenwade's experience.

 

The always on, except when it is not bit is difficult to my mind. I note what you say here and in your subsequent post and it IS just a matter of getting the points right, we just differ as to what the right points are and how to get there.

 

Indeed the suit may weigh nothing. Interesting point though, if you bought the suit with extra strength, would that need to be bought with 'affexts material world? Presumably not.

 

One other thing on the race itself - I note that they have absorbtion that does not have 'AMW'. I can see why - energy effects them - but I'm not sure this is a strictly rules correct (even if it is a very logical approach) method. Absorbtion is not, IIRC, a defence. What if they had 'energy reflection instead? The same 'logic' could apply, and could make them very nasty indeed.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Solidification

 

I'd buy it as affects real world on STR' date=' with a OIF....not being able to take the suit with you when you walk through stuff is just part of the LIM. You can go through wall.....you just have to leave your suit behind to do it.....if you want to take damage while in suit etc...then I'd recomend Multi-form or some physical lim(s) as well.....[/quote']

 

This is what I was thinking. The way I see it, these things are more or less insubstantial and won't be hurt if their suit is damaged or destroyed (unless it's providing ED against a hostile enviornment to them). I'd say write it up a ARW on STR (actually, just buy STR with ARW on it, since these guys have 0 STR), plus some Armor (body PD and ED if it's a hard suit, or just ED since that sounds like a good idea for them).

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Solidification

 

There's one small (or maybe not-so-small) problem I came up with right after I logged off last time.

 

Taking away the Always On Limitation doesn't force the Desolidification off; it just means it isn't always on.

 

Should I just hand-wave that part?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Solidification

 

Would it be a problem to say that the Az'arc'a can leave the suit and return to it at will? Leaving the suit behind when becoming Desolid would be part of the drawback of a Focus IMHO, but if you think that that Limits the Power more you could increase the Limitation value. This might even be one of those rare circumstances in which Focus and OIHID are both appropriate for the same character.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Solidification

 

Would it be a problem to say that the Az'arc'a can leave the suit and return to it at will? Leaving the suit behind when becoming Desolid would be part of the drawback of a Focus IMHO' date=' but if you think that that Limits the Power more you could increase the Limitation value. This might even be one of those rare circumstances in which Focus and OIHID are both appropriate for the same character.[/quote']That last part is worth seriously considering.

 

I'd love if Steve were to chime in here with an "official" solution, but I suspect he'd just say something along the lines of, "Build it like you want to."

[Sean Waters]

Re: Solidification

 

Well whatever you do decide to do, don't build it out of metal or they'll never be able to get in OR out.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Solidification

 

Well whatever you do decide to do' date=' don't build it out of metal or they'll never be able to get in OR out.[/quote']Actually, building it out of metal would probably be the only way for it to work. (To get out, all the Az'arc'a would have to do is open the seal....)

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Solidification

 

If a character has Inherent Desolidification, how does one make him solid again?

 

Specifically: what's the best way to build a "containment suit" for an Az'arc'a to allow it to interact with the real world? The suit wearer wouldn't just be able to apply STR (Affects Real World), but would also be no longer able to pass through solid barriers, take STUN from average attacks, and such.

 

Because it is inherent does not make it always on so simply turn solid.

 

or by str affects real world.