Corruption of power

[OddHat]

Re: Corruption of power

 

Honestly' date=' are you really, really sure you'd win over the temptation ?? [/quote']

 

Yes.

 

Not ever acting on them in any way under even the less harmful circumstances

 

That is close to the opposite of my posts on the subject. Most people won't act in ways that cause visible, concrete harm to other perceived group members. Who is perceived as a group member and how carefully we avoid causing abstract harm are affected by socialization.

 

getting themselves financially affluent without honest toil and sweat

 

Of course people will find profitable ways to use their powers, just as they do with their abilities in the real world.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Corruption of power

 

My view of myself is that of an Honoaurable person. When I freely give my word I will do something. I do it and damn the consequences. It has cost me to live with my ideals, but in the end I can look in the mirror and with wyre amusement be proud of who I am.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Corruption of power

 

 

Yes this set up an above the Law bit, but not above Justice.

 

 

 

 

Some would argue that Justice is the blind administration of Law.

 

Regardless, I would label this vigilante's actions as unjust.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Corruption of power

 

Some would argue that Justice is the blind administration of Law.

That is a corruption of its spirit for which it was intended.

Regardless' date=' I would label this vigilante's actions as unjust.[/quote']

I would label a Vigilante's action extreme and even against the law, but at the same time I understand what would make someone with the POWER effect change. When society and its laws do not work then there will always be those who get frustated and lash out. Sometimes blindly and other times at an intended target.

 

 

But, I am just speculating here

 

QM

[Wanderer]

Re: Corruption of power

 

Yes.

 

Good for you, man. You're definitely closer to Pearly Gates than me, in this regard.

 

That is close to the opposite of my posts on the subject. Most people won't act in ways that cause visible, concrete harm to other perceived group members. Who is perceived as a group member and how carefully we avoid causing abstract harm are affected by socialization.

 

And in this regard, I'm definitely persuaded that cheating with minor laws and making oneself as socially irresistible as your average filthy rich gorgeous charismatic superstar celebrity would quite slip under most people's ethical radar. I'd set the average morality's threshold just below petty theft (cfr. the huge popularity of copyright piracy).

 

Most people would refrain from blatant abuse of others... but would be willing to cut some ethical corners to give themselves the life of Hollywood superstars, if given the suddenly realistic chance of superpowers. That's why I feel seduction is a rather tricky meter to test the complete selflessness of the average superhero. Or to use a Hero game rules comparison: many people would likely balk at using outright Mind Control or Mental Illusions unless in the same circumstances where they 'd feel justified in using lethal force. Most people would likely see nothing wrong in magically granting themselves +30 PRE and/or 25+ in Persuasion and Seduction and putting them to good use.

[OddHat]

Re: Corruption of power

 

Good for you' date=' man. You're definitely closer to Pearly Gates than me, in this regard.[/quote']

 

I identify the use of "powers", whatever mechanics or SFX you use to describe them, to obtain sexual favors as causing concrete harm. You don't. It makes a significant difference. If you were asked "Would you cause concrete harm to a woman you cared for to gain sexual favors", I would be very surprised if you answered anything but "No".

 

Also, I'm in a happy, stable marriage and have a history of good relationships. If you'd asked me the same question at 14, I might have answered differently.

[Robyn]

Re: Corruption of power

 

Of course people will find profitable ways to use their powers' date=' just as they do with their abilities in the real world.[/quote']

 

Or, if they really want to be a hero, might find themselves suited to life as a modern-day Robin Hood, arranging for illegal/immoral profits to find their way into a bank account. Staying up all night to battle evildoers leaves one sleepy-eyed in the morning, and not able to work through the day. So why work? They're doing a public service. The public owes you money. So what if they don't see it that way? You're not asking them. They pay their taxes whether they like it or not. You just make sure those taxes go to you instead of the big bad IRS

[oberon]

Re: Corruption of power

 

My favourite supers character started out as a stereotypical ex-athlete popular type, who became bitter when he found out that the real world didn't work the same way after school. And a (good) higher dimensional being fleeing persecution from their (evil) civilization. Said being discovers the only way it can continue to exist on this plane is to merge itself with a human 'host', who then gained absorber/blaster type abilities.

 

The character had a public ID, and initially became a hero, simply for the adulation he received. And was not afraid to occasionally use the powers to his benefit. It would have been equally easy for him to take a step the other way, and seek revenge on all the people he felt had wronged/crossed him.

 

Of course, over time he became more and more heroic due to the unconscious effect of the merged being.

 

But at the start, yes, he could have gone either way. Obviously, if he'd gone bad, I wouldn't have been playing him in that game

 

oberon

[Manic Typist]

Re: Corruption of power

 

That is a corruption of its spirit for which it was intended.

 

I would label a Vigilante's action extreme and even against the law, but at the same time I understand what would make someone with the POWER effect change. When society and its laws do not work then there will always be those who get frustated and lash out. Sometimes blindly and other times at an intended target.

 

 

 

QM

 

A corruption? This I am less than sure on. Justice is a harsh mistress. Justice is not always fair. I think that is one of the best definitions I have ever seen, and I've seen a few.

 

And I said THIS vigilante's actions as unjust. A vigilante can act justly. The situation you spoke was one in which he was, to me, in the wrong.

[Robyn]

Re: Corruption of power

 

My favourite supers character started out as a stereotypical ex-athlete popular type' date=' who became bitter when he found out that the real world didn't work the same way after school. And a (good) higher dimensional being fleeing persecution from their (evil) civilization. Said being discovers the only way it can continue to exist on this plane is to merge itself with a human 'host', who then gained absorber/blaster type abilities.[/quote']

 

Of course, over time he became more and more heroic due to the unconscious effect of the merged being.

 

So, he wasn't consciously aware of the merged being? It's not that he was the higher dimensional being, in a sense?

 

I see excellent potential for WWYCD-like "corruption of power" scenarios here. Imagine that, during his heroic endeavors, he travels to a higher plane. Suddenly, the higher being separates and resumes its independent existence! It had to bond with him for survival, but now it is glad to get back to its own life.

 

And, as a consequence, the hero is now deprived of his powers. How will he react to discovering how his powers came to him? Will he accept his new status as an ordinary person? And how far will he go to regain his powers?

[OddHat]

Re: Corruption of power

 

Or' date=' if they really want to be a hero, might find themselves suited to life as a modern-day Robin Hood, arranging for illegal/immoral profits to find their way into a bank account. Staying up all night to battle evildoers leaves one sleepy-eyed in the morning, and not able to work through the day. So why work? They're doing a public service. The public [i']owes[/i] you money. So what if they don't see it that way? You're not asking them. They pay their taxes whether they like it or not. You just make sure those taxes go to you instead of the big bad IRS

 

That would be based on the position that theft of illegal profits or tax monies does no concrete harm to perceived group members. Some would take that path, most wouldn't.

 

A basic flying space worthy brick could make millions working for any space agency in the world; he doesn't need to beat up drug dealers to pay the rent. Comic book conventions like "sports teams won't hire strong, fast people" set up a false dilemma in a setting that tries to address the realistic (as much as it means in a world with supers) temptations of powers.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Corruption of power

 

On not hiring superpowered individuals for sports:

 

I actually don't see that as being all that ridiculous. Why? Two reasons.

 

1: Some of the supers are downright dangerous to the non-supers. If Ironside was playing football somewhere, it'd only be a matter of time before he accidentally dropkicked some poor schmuck's head into the next county.

 

2: Unions. I imagine that every player's union out there would fight tooth and nail to get superpowered players banned from playing, because "it's not fair" - they'd equate it to using steroids or other performance enhancements, and all other manner of tactics would come up. Ultimately, I imagine they'd be banned simply because nobody wants to lose all your other players for one powerhouse.

 

However! The failure to establish a superpowers league in most settings with widespread powers is, to me, a total and complete oversight.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Corruption of power

 

Frankly, I'm increasingly dubious of "fairness in sports" rules. While it can currently be justified on the grounds that things like steroids and such have nasty side effects. . . what happens when methods of enhancement are available that are as clinically safe as any other discretionary medical treatment?

 

In my opinion, "what happens" is alot of fuss, alot of sound and fury about fairness, and then the sports leagues give up and allow it.

 

In any case, point of demonstration, Aberrant. Even though the number of novas is too few to support team sports, you very quickly end up with the XWF, which is the same principle. I imagine even in a less iron setting, the emphasis would be on individual or pair sports over stuff like baseball, unless there are relatively standardized methods of acquiring metahuman powers cheap ( imagine a world in which Silver Avenger-grade upgrades are generally available for only a few hundred thousand dollars? You'd easily have entire pro sports teams buffed with them )

[OddHat]

Re: Corruption of power

 

GM: "This is a realistic game. Your character needs a job, and money issues will be treated seriously."

 

Player: "My character uses his super strength and speed to play pro football. I spend 5 points on Wealth and 1 point on Reputation."

 

GM: "He can't, the Unions won't let him."

 

Player: "Fine, he joins an Unlimited Class Football Team."

 

GM: "There aren't any. No Wrestling or any other pro sports either."

 

Player: "OK, he gets a job in an industry where super strength and speed can get him a great living. Maybe specialized construction work, or Aerospace."

 

GM: "Nope, the unions stop him."

 

Player: "Are you kidding? Unions are almost dead in Aerospace, and construction uses non-union labor all the time!"

 

GM: "Tough. In my world, Unions are all powerful."

 

Player: "OK, he squeezes coal into diamonds, then sells them to heavy industry at a fraction of the cost of regular industrial diamonds. I pay for the Professional Skills he'd need."

 

GM: "He can't. That's counterfeiting."

 

Player: "No it isn't. Industrial diamonds are made and sold every day."

 

GM: "The Unions won't let companies buy from you."

 

Player: "What?"

 

GM: "Pick something else."

 

Player: "Fine. He starts a one man construction company. I pay for the appropriate skills and perks. By himself, he can put up a house in less than a third the time it takes a normal crew, and people will pay extra thanks to his fine workmanship,"

 

GM: "No, Unions."

 

Player: "Unions can't do anything to a one man company!"

 

GM: "All powerful Unions."

 

Player: "OK, he starts a one man moving company."

 

GM: "The police stop him! And arrest and torture him for no logical reason!"

 

Player: "I'm going to hurt you now."

 

GM: "See! I knew everyone was evil!"

 

(Fight)

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Corruption of power

 

I dunno' date=' Peter Parker: Cruiser Weight Champion of the Ulimited Class Wrestling Federation, has a nice ring to it.[/quote']

 

Sure does. I'd pay to see him tangle with RVD or Chris Benoit.

 

Though Vince wuld be more interested in hiring the Hulk, what with his thing for muscled-up freaks...

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Corruption of power

 

Yes' date=' people have said "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". [/quote']

 

Well, not to pick nits, but I believe the saying is, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

 

Though I feel that someone who would abuse superpowers (in a taking every unfair advantage that can way, not in a I'm gonna hurt you way) would probably abuse every advantage they could get regardless. Someone who would act selfish and self-serving with superpowers would be just as bad without. They just have less ability to get away with it.

[Robyn]

Re: Corruption of power

 

That would be based on the position that theft of illegal profits or tax monies does no concrete harm to perceived group members. Some would take that path' date=' most wouldn't.[/quote']

 

Then eliminate the most literal interpretation and have heroes beating up drug lords and taking their stuff

 

It worked for the Reapers in Dead Like Me

[Robyn]

Re: Corruption of power

 

Though I feel that someone who would abuse superpowers (in a taking every unfair advantage that can way' date=' not in a I'm gonna hurt you way) would probably abuse every advantage they could get regardless. Someone who would act selfish and self-serving with superpowers would be just as bad without. They just have less ability to get away with it.[/quote']

 

An important point, and one that should not be lost amidst this thread's focus on superpowers, is that - even without superpowers - not all people are equal.

 

Most people have no compunctions whatsoever about using whatever natural advantages they have - and anything they can get ahold of through improving themselves - to do better in life.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Corruption of power

 

GM: "This is a realistic game. Your character needs a job, and money issues will be treated seriously."

Brrilliance snipped for bandwidth purposeses.

(Fight)

grumble grumble must spread rep grumble grumble

[OddHat]

Re: Corruption of power

 

Most people have no compunctions whatsoever about using whatever natural advantages they have - and anything they can get ahold of through improving themselves - to do better in life.

 

Nor should they. There's nothing unethical about using your natural advantages to build a good life for yourself and your family. It's only when you start to harm others that it becomes an issue.

 

Peter Parker didn't teeter on the edge of poverty for decades because he was highly ethical; he teetered on the edge of poverty for decades because the writers thought it made for a character the readers would be better able to identify with.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Corruption of power

 

Which is a fancy way of saying "the writers done screwed him over." Really, with his brains, he should have been more than able to get a decent paying job. . . except that anytime something came up, it *always* got messed up by horrible luck.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Corruption of power

 

An important point, and one that should not be lost amidst this thread's focus on superpowers, is that - even without superpowers - not all people are equal.

 

Most people have no compunctions whatsoever about using whatever natural advantages they have - and anything they can get ahold of through improving themselves - to do better in life.

 

Nor should they. There's nothing unethical about using your natural advantages to build a good life for yourself and your family. It's only when you start to harm others that it becomes an issue.

 

 

And I agree with you both. It's the difference between rising as far as your natural talent and ambition can take you, and faking evidence of your boss breaking the law so you can blackmail him into givign you a position you couldn't fairly earn.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Corruption of power

 

In my campaign, I made it a given that mental powers corrupt. I believe that they are incredibly tempting, way beyond any physical power's temptation. So the corruption rate for mentalists is like 99.9%.

 

Plus, I didn't want to have to mess with telepaths and mind controlling freaks.

[Robyn]

Re: Corruption of power

 

And I agree with you both. It's the difference between rising as far as your natural talent and ambition can take you' date=' and faking evidence of your boss breaking the law so you can blackmail him into givign you a position you couldn't fairly earn.[/quote']

 

The difference I had in mind is more of an inferiority-complex mental defensive maneveur which goes "I'm not worse than anybody else, none of them are better than anyone else, how dare they pretend to be, I'll drag them down to my level and have the government pass laws to make them stay that way".

[Sadistic GM]

Re: Corruption of power

 

Power corrupts is a cliche, but like most cliches it is based upon a general truth. Apologies to the more sensitive types out there whose feelings may be hurt by this, but the cold hard fact is that many people are only altruistic for selfish reasons.

If you are powerless, behaving virtuously gives you a sense of empowerment. On the flip side, if you are powerful, you are less likely to face consequences for your moral lapses. Furthermore, once you begin to accrue power, you show up on the "radar" of other power-seekers...may of whom are unscrupulous and aggressive. Clinging to principles can often lead to a loss of power...so congrats, you got just enough power to be angerous, and then were promptly quashed by a truly ruthless bastard because you cling to your ethics.

Therefore, otherwise scrupulous people allow themselves small, pragmatic lapses to benefit their advancement...making the next lapse easier..etcetera.

Equally often, morality and ethics are themselves used as a means to power. Rhetorically and politically, to attract like minds to your banner, and restrict the actions of your rivals.

There is a pretty good argument to be made that any truly ethical person would eschew wordly power .If superhuman powers were thrust upon such a man, he may very well simply use them to remain secluded from worldly matters.

Of course, these are exactly the sorts of people who can end up having huge impact on worldy affairs by virtue of the example their code of ethics can set for others. Which, of course, makes them a threat to the powerful....round and round.

A lawful evil general finds his kingdom under attack, while a weak boy king holds the throne. The general usurps power, imprisoning the lad, and ruling by decree. Dissidents , including those whose race or religion matches the warring neigbour, are imprisoned or banished. Spies go out to watch the populace, and young men are drafted against their will.The treasury is depleted to finance mercenaries .What do you call this man? Well, in his mind , he is probably a PATRIOT.He is protecting his nation for the greater good, as he sees it.

Now, take this moral relativism one more step. What if the general saw the weak young king as a handicap, but did not wish to wait for an enemy to attack? What if the general hired foreign assassins to stage an attack and blame it on the kingdom next door? His motivations could well be the same...

Frankly, when dealing with powerful characters, any moral dilemmas you can throw in their path are a win-win situation. It forces the players and the GM to examine the roleplaying motivations of the group, and can restrain to mighty .I applaud your thoughtful posts on the subject, one and all.