Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

[JenovasWitness]

If I want a character to have the "Plastic-man" abiliy to change shape without changing appearance... I.E. turn into a bridge over water to rescue a stranded flood victim; while still looking like plastic-man, just a bridge shaped plastic-man, I need shapeshift with just touch as the sense group right? I don't need sight because he's not trying to appear to be an actual image of a bridge, with rocks and moss and pebbles and the whole deal. The whole sense group thing is confusing as heck to me.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

The whole sense group thing is confusing as heck to me.

And that's becuase it stinks. Touch group = shape. Sight group = color. Taken literally, if you don't spend points on the sight group, no matter what shape you assume you should appear the same, which is clearly impossible, as major portions of you would have to become completely invisible. It's a small break in the system, and if your GM won't let it slide, I recommend having him slapped.

 

(my 2AP)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

Assuming I'm reading what you're saying right ... which is:

 

The character plants his feet at one end of a river, stretches his way across it, grabs something at the other end, and people just walk across his back.

 

That's just Stretching, no Shapeshift required, I would say.

 

Shapeshift to sight affects the way you look ... for example, if I shapeshift (sight group only) into a chair, I do, in fact, look like a chair. However, without Shapeshift (touch), the upholstery will feel like skin rather than fabric.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

Clearly, clarification is needed. (I might just be wrong, and what the puppy says sounds pretty good - it's happened before!)

[JmOz]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

This was acturaly clarified to some extent in Ultimate Metamorph (WHo would have thunk it)

 

Basicaly, and this is a IIRC as I do not own the book, Touch will allow you to change shape like you want, with out sight then anyone looking at you can tell your not a real bridge (for what ever reason). Some stretching may still be needed

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

It's not stretching, as stretching is not a movement power, and certainly not a UBO movement power

 

What you want is Force Wall.

 

No, seriously, what you want is a couple of blobs of glue on page 216, then keep the book shut overnight. You'll need to decoupage over the first column of page 218, apart from the 'shrinking' table at the bottom, then you can just forget all about it, and assume it is 10 points for one form, 20 for a group of forms and 40 for any form. Costs END to change shape. Job done. Anything else you do with self only images or invisibility.

[JmOz]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

It's not stretching, as stretching is not a movement power, and certainly not a UBO movement power

 

What you want is Force Wall.

 

No, seriously, what you want is a couple of blobs of glue on page 216, then keep the book shut overnight. You'll need to decoupage over the first column of page 218, apart from the 'shrinking' table at the bottom, then you can just forget all about it, and assume it is 10 points for one form, 20 for a group of forms and 40 for any form. Costs END to change shape. Job done. Anything else you do with self only images or invisibility.

 

No but it does increase your reach, which would allow you to help others across...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

By the new Shape Shift rules (which I happen to like BTW, although I may or may not be in the minority), Shape Shift to the Touch Sense Group will allow someone to alter their configuration to appear to have the outline, contours, and possibly texture of whatever they're imitating, to any Senses capable of perceiving such details; but not the color, scent, quality of sound and radar reflectivity, etc., so those senses can immediately tell that this thing is not what it's shaped like (assuming they're sufficiently Discriminatory).

 

However, this change in shape is essentially cosmetic. While it may grant some small benefits based on Special Effects, it can't duplicate the game-mechanic effects of any other Powers, e.g. no major mass increase or decrease, greatly extended stretching or the like. Conversely, having a Power to, for example, Stretch yourself like Plastic Man would not require Shape Shift to give you the appearance of a physically distorted human being. That's just the Special Effect of this particular iteration of that Power.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

Although Plastic Man is not always OBVIOUSLY Plastic Man. Sometimes he is a fire extinguisher. Apparently.

 

Most shapeshifters need stretching and shapeshift, certainly the metamorph types.

 

I would be SOOOO much happier with the new shapeshift if it either:

 

1. Didn't exist, or

 

2. Used an adder to actually allow change of shape, rather than the touch/sight kludge, or

 

3. Incorporated the stretching power in its entirely to 'do' shapeshifting with. You know, 'real' shapeshifting, or

 

4. Just went honest and changed its name to 'Sense fooling power a bit like images but self only and sorta permanent. Sorta. Well, for smells, anyway' Catchy, huh?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

Since certain folks insist on pronouncing judgements critical of the new Shape Shift , I suppose I should describe why I like it.

 

I like the new granularity. The old Shape Shift left one to make a lot of assumptions about what was or was not covered when someone changed shape: Did a person who looked like a rock feel or smell like a rock? Does that hold true for every Shape Shift build, or did you need Limitations to not smell like a rock? What if someone tries to scan the rock for a mind? With the new Shape Shift you can define precisely how you want this effect to work in individual cases.

 

Shape Shift now makes for easy builds to fool targeted senses, such as Sight to create holographic disguises, Radio to change the radar silhouette of your airplane, or Mental to deceive telepathic scans. I would consider Limitations on Shape Shift for this purpose to be more of a "kludge." (I hate that term, but someone else already brought it up.) In Fourth Edition one often did such things with Images, but Shape Shift has no Perception Roll associated with it as with Images, so it's an automatic success.

 

If you just don't like the standard 5E Shape Shift (which you certainly have the right to), The Ultimate Metamorph introduced an optional "Simplified Shape Shift," which is essentially the 4E version of the Power brought into official status for 5E. So you can have your cake and eat it, too.

 

If all that still doesn't satisfy you, I can only repeat, with the utmost respect:

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

I don't want to revisit the whole debate, but I think the new SS is nice just in that it delivers granular OPTIONS. But for 90% of what people use SS for, I think 4th was not only adequate but much easier to apply and understand. 4th does leave enough to question that by its nature there's more things left to GM discretion - but I think that's a good, not bad thing. I find it useful to use 5th's options for SS as good add-ons to the 4th version where players want increased control and not to leave something to interpretation.

 

All that said, IMHO if one is happy with 4th's Shape Shift, just use that. I have and don't see an issue with it.

[JmOz]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

I don't want to revisit the whole debate, but I think the new SS is nice just in that it delivers granular OPTIONS. But for 90% of what people use SS for, I think 4th was not only adequate but much easier to apply and understand. 4th does leave enough to question that by its nature there's more things left to GM discretion - but I think that's a good, not bad thing. I find it useful to use 5th's options for SS as good add-ons to the 4th version where players want increased control and not to leave something to interpretation.

 

All that said, IMHO if one is happy with 4th's Shape Shift, just use that. I have and don't see an issue with it.

 

As an aside, Ultimate Metamorph and Sidekick both include a simplified version similar (though not exact) to 4th edition

[schir1964]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

It's not stretching' date=' as stretching is not a movement power, and certainly not a UBO movement power [/quote']

Actually, based on the FAQ for the Hero 5th Edition version, you may use Stretching to move from one location to another. However, based on the manner it which Stretching is used, your movement is truely a "Stop Action" type of move since some type of grab is implied.

 

Just an interesting clarification someone pointed out to me.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[JenovasWitness]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

Assuming I'm reading what you're saying right ... which is:

 

The character plants his feet at one end of a river, stretches his way across it, grabs something at the other end, and people just walk across his back.

 

That's just Stretching, no Shapeshift required, I would say.

 

Shapeshift to sight affects the way you look ... for example, if I shapeshift (sight group only) into a chair, I do, in fact, look like a chair. However, without Shapeshift (touch), the upholstery will feel like skin rather than fabric.

 

The effect I'm going for is: I shapeshift into a chair shape, I still smell and look (and taste, I suppose) like bright red plastic; with plastic-man's big smiling mug on the chair back and the legs look suspiciosly like plastic man's arms and legs, but people can sit on me without falling off.

 

Sight really I suppose has two components. The hue/color/saturation/visual pattern part and the shape part. What I want to do is alter the 2nd without much altering the 1st.

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

As an aside' date=' Ultimate Metamorph and Sidekick both include a simplified version similar (though not exact) to 4th edition[/quote']

I didn't realize that was in Sidekick, which I have but only barely glanced at. I have the Ultimate Metamorph but still haven't read it yet, thanks (I did notice Lord Liaden mentioned that as well, too, so that is for him also).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

The effect I'm going for is: I shapeshift into a chair shape, I still smell and look (and taste, I suppose) like bright red plastic; with plastic-man's big smiling mug on the chair back and the legs look suspiciosly like plastic man's arms and legs, but people can sit on me without falling off.

 

Sight really I suppose has two components. The hue/color/saturation/visual pattern part and the shape part. What I want to do is alter the 2nd without much altering the 1st.

 

I may be wrong, but I would do this as Shapeshift to Sight Group with the limitation Cannot Change Colors, myself.

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

Well, what is the sensory effect, if we are going to stay true to 5th?

 

Upon sight, unless obscured in darkness or such, Plastic Man is clearly not the object he is shaped into. I recall in reading some of his older comics that he would sometimes transform into objects such as lamps or the like merely to occupy a space in the room in place of where something normal would be and as long as nobody looked his way he was fine. Goofy, but anyway in this case it's really a Stealth skill.

 

I can't recall when someone sat on him if they sensed anything unusual. But if they did not (or, rather, if you want your Plastic Man to fool someone this way), then there's a true Shape Shift to Touch.

 

If you expect that people see him as the object he pretends to be when it's dark or such, I'd say it's Shape Shift to Sight Only in Darkness/When Obscured. Of course you would need to add this to the Touch. And in theory, I would add the same Limitation to both - if someone sits on him as a couch and actually feels around, they'll quickly realize, but if we just assume a bit of cartoonishess (appropriately enough) then we can say that as long as they don't do that they don't notice the difference between flexible/cushy human flesh and a cushy chair (which is reasonable enough) or between tautly drawn Plastic Man flesh which is as tough as at least plastic and a plastic or metal or wooden chair.

 

All of which may pretty much cover it. (?)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

It's not stretching, as stretching is not a movement power, and certainly not a UBO movement power

 

What you want is Force Wall.

 

No, seriously, what you want is a couple of blobs of glue on page 216, then keep the book shut overnight. You'll need to decoupage over the first column of page 218, apart from the 'shrinking' table at the bottom, then you can just forget all about it, and assume it is 10 points for one form, 20 for a group of forms and 40 for any form. Costs END to change shape. Job done. Anything else you do with self only images or invisibility.

I'll have to rep you later for this...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

Although Plastic Man is not always OBVIOUSLY Plastic Man. Sometimes he is a fire extinguisher. Apparently.

 

Most shapeshifters need stretching and shapeshift, certainly the metamorph types.

 

I would be SOOOO much happier with the new shapeshift if it either:

 

1. Didn't exist, or

 

2. Used an adder to actually allow change of shape, rather than the touch/sight kludge, or

 

3. Incorporated the stretching power in its entirely to 'do' shapeshifting with. You know, 'real' shapeshifting, or

 

4. Just went honest and changed its name to 'Sense fooling power a bit like images but self only and sorta permanent. Sorta. Well, for smells, anyway' Catchy, huh?

 

Not that I really want to set a vote for "I like the new Shapeshift!", because I really think there are some flaws with it... but I do want to place a vote against charging for SFX. Changing shape is a SFX of the game mechanics, not a game mechanic itself. Stretching can be shape changing, so can the use of Armor, the use of an HKA or HA, even the turning on of certain Enhanced Senses. So what if someone can change shape with no special stuff that goes with it? Well, that's just fluff. I can wiggle my ears, but I'll kick any GM in the shins who wants to charge me points for it.

 

What I don't like about the Shape Shift Power is that it has some obvious flaws in how certain sense groups overlap. If you change how you are perceived by the touch group to feel like a fishing rod, but don't change how you look to look like a fishing rod, what to people see when they see you? Do you still look normal? You sure won't look like a fishing rod, but you shouldn't look like a normal person either. But what? And does it really matter so long as anyone looking at you knows you're a normal human pretending to be a fishing rod?

[casualplayer]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

Shapeshift is a really poorly thought out power as it is written. Self-only Images would work much better, and has an incorporated mechanic for determining if someone can perceive through your disguise by impacting observer's PER Rolls.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

FORM OF! A bucket of water!!!

 

...

 

What?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

I like the granularity of the new shapeshift too, but it seems to me that a 10 point adder to images (perfect image: doesn't allow a PER roll to detect underlying reality) would do the trick nicely. I mean a lot of 'shapeshift concepts' are really infallible images anyway. You might also need an adder for 'persistent image' so that you can leave a changed scent. 5 points should do it.

 

Notet he 'perfect image' adder would not be the same as a perfect imitation: you'd need the shapeshift adders for that.

 

And while I'm on images I'd remove the ability to create light to change environment, but that is just me: it makes so much more sense that way around.

 

Shapeshift as is does everything really well apart from shapeshifting. Oh and it costs a huge amount to be a genuine metamorph, even if you don;t have a talent for imitation which, let's face it, is the single most useful thing you can do with the power, but you sure as shovels can't do much else with it.

 

I'd really narrow down the scope of shapeshift to reflect utility. What can a 'shapeshift' power do? Redistribute mass (probably do that with stretching) and fit through small gaps. Hell you could do that with an adder to stretching too and get rid of shapeshift altogether. Oh and I'd make stretching a species of movement power.

 

I suppose you could also redistribute your anatomy, making certain targetted attacks like choke holds difficult, (but I'd do that with a custom life support) or to make it more difficult for a grabbed target to wriggle out of your grasp (+STR to hold a grab).

 

In fact the more I think about it we ought to lose shapesghift altogether and have another section of the book (I can make any number of suggestions as to which bits to lose to save the page count) describing 'compound powers', and suggesting the combination of abilities and powers that a metamorph might possess, depending ont he exact abilities envisaged.

 

In fact I think that might be the problem with shapeshift: it is a lot of different powers to a lot of different people. Maybe it should be a power we build to spec.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

To answer your question about what a shapeshift power should do... the rulebook answers that question by saying that shapeshifting should allow you to be perceived as something you're not by one or more senses. The SFX of that could easily be he actually changes shape, and I guess the book assumes that's the default or most common SFX of looking like something else.

 

I still think that things like shifting mass around is SFX. What else does it do? There's isn't really a game mechanic that handles the effect of it, and no real need to create one.

 

The existing Shape Shift Power is clumsy though. I'm not sure if it's too expensive for the utility it provides, I haven't played with it often enough to be sure.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

Shapeshift is an all or nothing power: in a game where it matters, it matters big, but it is really not player friendly: a villain with shapeshift can infiltrate the Hero team, posing as a member, but a Hero can't, unless it is solo play, as it would be boring for everyone else. Moreover, unless the Hero can change into any form the utility is severely limtied anyway: it is pretty useless as s disguise if you can only change into one, or a small group of related appearances.

 

The thing that makes shapeshift expensive is the cost for multilpe forms. Images takes the view you can make anything appear unless you limit the power: this would help with SS too - but it is already so like images I really can't see the need for both.

 

In fact I can see a case for making images, SS and invisibility the same power, with different adders.

 

As to shifting mass about I think it is worth something to be able to fit through small gaps and such, but a 5 point adder on stretching would do it for me. Even if there is not a mechanical effect, there is an in-game effect.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

The primary differences between all of the sense affecting powers are the mechanics they use to circumvent or their use.

 

If the Player and/or GM don't want to add more dice rolls (Perception checks) for a sense affecting ability they use Invisibility, Shapeshift or Darkness. The only check is to see if an otherwise affected character has a sense power not affected by the power.

 

If the Player and/or GM wants to use Perception checks instead of Power checks as the primary resolution mechanic then they use Images. Images can potentially affect all the same senses as the other 3 and can be used to do all the same same things and more. But it can never be perfect. A natural 3 on a Perception check will always see through it.

 

It's like the difference between the 1st ed. AD&D Illusion (make save and ignore) and Phantasm (no save) spells.