Pattern Ghost Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 I was looking up Darkness (in Fifth Ed, pg. 96] to refresh my memory on current costs to create a smoke grenade when I came across the following line: Darkness makes the covered area impenetrable by the Senses is affects. For example, unlike normal darkness (which imposes -4 on PER rolls... Then it hit me: I'd been about to build the umpteenth million smoke pellet/grenade construct with the Hero rules, without thinking out the effect. I've seen plenty of real smoke grenades in action in the Army. While heavy smoke can be completely obscuring to normal vision, it shouldn't stop IR vision, and you can usually see movement and at least some outlines if you're close enough. (The default level of Darkness in Fifth is against the entire sense group, which would stop IR vision for example.) So, why not use Change Environment instead? While I'm pretty sure I haven't been the first person to think of this, I still see tons of builds both official and player base created using Darkness, even though CE now has the capability of simulating the effect. EDIT: One thing I should probably point out: Darkness suggests its use for smoke grenades in the second sentence of its entry, and Change Environment says it can't be used to simulate the Darkness power. I put forth that Darkness at the default of affecting the entire sense group is not appropriate for the SFX. Since we're looking for obscured vision, such as the sidebar Pea Soup write up, this doesn't violate the restriction on CE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psylint Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? I think its easier and cheaper. If you want to create a smoke grenade that doesn't work against Infared or other Sight Group Senses, just take it as a limitation (Normal Vision only -1/2). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitz Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? I agree that unlimited Darkness isn't really a good match for smoke or fog effects, and that Change Environment would be a better fit. Even so, it still needs some tweaking: CE allows you to apply negative levels (to normal vision PER, in this case) but as far as I can see there's no "by the book" way to model an increase in those negative levels according to range. "Explosion" comes close, but in this case it would be a limitation, not an advantage, since you're already dealing with an Area of Effect. "Hole in the Middle" could be a candidate, except that then there's a sharp delineation between no effect and absolute effect. I've also had plenty of experience with WP smoke in the army, and although it's pretty dense and obscuring I've not generally had too many problems seeing my immediate vicinity -- it's only stuff further away that gets fully obscured. I'd want to model smoke by applying a -1 sight PER per hex (for example) from the viewer rather than an absolute value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? I think 'simplicity' sums it up nicely for me. Of course, I mostly use HERO for supers, where smokebombs are often well beyond RL functionality (thick black impenetrable clouds), but I think it's simpler to just say 'Darkness' than 'Penalty to sight and smell PER rolls, a little NND damage, etc.'. Of course, if a player wants the extra detail and functionality, he's welcome to build it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted January 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? I think the normal range penalties would cover that. Edit: That was in reply to Fitz. =D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? Eh. I always get cranky when the book -- which eschews absolutes -- makes an absolute statement. You CAN simulate "darkness" with Change Environment; I would go so far as to submit that the big advantage of Darkness is in its simplicity (POOF, you're blind) but that CE could be reworked to do that. What the hell was I talking about? Oh yes. Short version: Go with Darkness to Sight Group (Normal Vision, -1/2), can be dispersed by strong winds (-1/4), or go with a CE on Gradual Effect and put it backwards so it "counts down" from -X PER to -Y PER to 0 PER penalty, OR build it using FLASH mechanics, throw the grenade and roll Normal Body Damage for the number of Rounds the smoke stays active. But hey, I like to roll dice. And think outside boxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? Darkenss, by default, covers a whole sense group. I think Psylint has the best approach: just limit it to 'normal sight only' at -1/2. You could add in an activation roll of 14- to simulate occasional breaks in the cover, and whatever else you like. The problem with Change Environment to my mind is not the build, which is a one off, but the in-game administration of all those PER rolls every phase... Mind you if you don't mind that, maybe the better way yet would be to build smoke as images which cover an area and replace what is there. For both that and darkness a single targetting sense is 5 points, which may be better than limiting the entire construction. The advantage of images is that you can build in shadows and such, so that those observing the smoke might THINK they see a shape in the smoke that MIGHT (or might not) be a target, which might draw fire, or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? Avoid absolutes, don't worry about a universal standard; use whichever Power Construct best models the effect you are currently trying to make. For grenades that obscure vision in some circumstances that might be Darkness, in others CE, in others Images, in others Flash AoE, in others Suppress vs INT Only To Reduce PER, and some even more unusual construct in other cases. And if none of the existing elements work to model it precisely the way you think it should be, don't be afraid to make a custom "Smoke" Power that works exactly the way you think it should, basing the cost via comparison to the more mainstream methods available. Stay flexible, minimize issues, maximize fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? So, why not use Change Environment instead? Sometimes we do. There are a number of published instances where I felt that CE with a Sight Group penalty was more appropriate than the flat impenetrability of Darkness, so that's what I did. In other places the Darkness approach seemed to work OK so I used that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? Sometimes we do. There are a number of published instances where I felt that CE with a Sight Group penalty was more appropriate than the flat impenetrability of Darkness' date=' so that's what I did. In other places the Darkness approach seemed to work OK so I used that.[/quote'] Wow. Before I read that, I was going to suggest that since we're technically not supposed to create light with CE, we probably shouldn't create darkness either. We use Images to create light. It seem Images would work just as well for Darkness. Images simply imposes a PER Roll penalty, if you fail the roll, you don't see what's really there, just like with smoke or fog or natural darkness. (In fact, I suggest it anyway.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? I never understood why creating light became images. Seems simpler to change the light level in an area than to create an image of a lighted version of what we're looking at. =P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? I never understood why creating light became images. Seems simpler to change the light level in an area than to create an image of a lighted version of what we're looking at. =P I'm not sure anyone does. LA p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? I'm not sure anyone does. LA p Well my preference is noted above (I'd rather see it as CE) BUT I have to say I appreciate that a decision has been made so we know where we stand. If you want light, you build it as images, plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? A while ago we ran a Victorian (super) Hero game - minor powers only - and the whole thing was largely based around the Jack The Ripper mystery. In this particular game the 'murderer' was a Chinese Fog Demon (I bet you that wasn't on your list of suspects ). The Demon used Change Environment, penalties to PER, drop in temperature level, over an enormous area: 10 doublings gave it a radius of about 1km: easily enough for the heart of London in those days. As it was a PER penalty it did not eman you could not see, it just meant it was far harder, or subject to GM whim (a break in the fog lets you glimpse a young woman in a broad brimmed hat talking to someone in the shadow of an alley, then the fog closes over again....and you hear a scream!) Worked pretty well, even if the power (due to the area) was expensive. Bear in mind that Hero considers -4 PER to be effectviely darkness anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? Wow. Before I read that' date=' I was going to suggest that since we're technically not supposed to create light with CE, we probably shouldn't create darkness either. We use Images to create light. It seem Images would work just as well for Darkness. Images simply imposes a PER Roll penalty, if you fail the roll, you don't see what's really there, just like with smoke or fog or natural darkness. (In fact, I suggest it anyway.)[/quote'] The key there is that youre not supposed to use CE to grant bonuses, but you can impose penalties. I dont agree with it, but there you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted January 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? The key there is that youre not supposed to use CE to grant bonuses, but you can impose penalties. I dont agree with it, but there you go. If it can impose penalties, there's no reason it can't logically reduce penalties... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? If it can impose penalties' date=' there's no reason it can't logically reduce penalties...[/quote'] Logically, yes. But it explicitly cannot provide "positive" effects or bonuses. 5er Page 137 under "Positive Effects". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? The "reason" is its too easy to get munchkiny if you do...but this is Hero if you want to go right ahead..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? I never understood why creating light became images. Seems simpler to change the light level in an area than to create an image of a lighted version of what we're looking at. =P I believe it's because it supplies a specific adjustment to PER rolls. In the case of creating light, that same adjustment can be used to increase PER rolls. If it can impose penalties' date=' there's no reason it can't logically reduce penalties...[/quote'] Yes. I always allow it so reduce (or remove) penalties. IFAICT, that isn't prohibited, though I'm not sure if it's specifically clarified anywhere. If CE can create fog, it should also be able to dissipate fog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? The thing is the Image power's PER modification is to make it harder to tell In my games CE can be used for positive mods just makes more sense to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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