Timestop Difficulties

[Blue]

I let a player have a power when i first started the campaign and now years later it's a bit of a headache. I'm not going to ask the player to get rid of it (not without a decent replacement anyway) so let's skip that suggestion.

 

What I need are suggestions on how to deal with it.

 

The power is an Entangle based on ECV. It's meant to simulate freezing the individual in time. Now ECV really isn't much better than versus plain ol' STR for this effect, but we needed something and this was pre-USPDB I and II.

 

Since an entangle isn't blocked by a defense (Like PD, ED, Mental Defense, etc.) then it's always arriving at it's full size. Since the effect is mental and enough dice to give a decent DEF listing, that means only Egoists are ever going to defeat it. In some cases I've put an Egoist into the team to deal with this effect (as they could ego-attack it and remove it from anyone who is bundled up this way) but they've been taken out by other player who see what's going on and want their timestop guy to run rampant.

 

One thought I had was a missile-deflection type of effect (bouncing the attack at other players) but this isn't a missile.

 

Are there any other good ways to deal with the mental entangle that you've come across, other than having a mentalist on hand to crush it?

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

There should be some mechanism for the "time stop" to wear out. Otherwise, the character might have badguys stacked up in his trophy room like cordwood. Back in 3ER, there was a supplement that provided a "mental entangle" that worked very nearly like what you have there. ISTR that the victim could roll dice for his ego against the entangle as if it were strength against a normal entangle. An entangled character could add his ego defense (if any) to his ego for calculating his mental strength.

 

Alternatively, you might want to rule that the BOD or DEF of the time stop entangle is the number of turns/phases/segments before it dissipates. That way if someone gets blasted by the entangle when there aren't any mentaists around to break him out, he's not hosed. If the power is irrevokably permanent unless someone can ego attack the timestop, then I'd suggest having your player convert it to a transform.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

So the target's timeframe slows down to near zero? The Universe ages and dies before his next heartbeat?

 

Awesome power.

 

Perhaps the alteration of one's timeframe this way is similar to changing dimensions (similar, but not really). Maybe the PC doesn't know that's what he's doing, doesn't really matter since the power works as expected.

 

Now, something exists in that altered "dimension" or senses effects in that frame of reference. It may be angry or curious or hungry or jealous - in any event, it's key to this place (Earth, our timeframe) is the use of the Timestop power.

 

The first symptoms of The Thing From Out Of Time (TTFOOT) might be that victims of the power get a much better breakout roll. Let everyone haymaker their Ego rolls. That's because they are terrified by TTFOOT. They break out of the power, but are still eliminated from the fight because they are insane with fear or flee (not from the heroes, but from everything - i.e. they never stop fleeing).

 

That should make the player and his PC interested in this new phenomenon. As TTFOOT

draws "nearer", the Timestop power becomes unreliable (Activation), and occasionally fails in strange and sometimes even spectacular ways (Side Effects).

 

You can leave it here for many sessions, since this is a backstory building towards a very interesting confrontation. The player is denied some of his uber-power, but is the star of a backstory and upcoming story arc. It might balance out, especially if you work with the guy some beforehand.

 

Just make sure the culmination of the story is memorable when the heroes face TTFOOT and its world-destroying consequences.

 

Oh - and after that, the Timestop power won't work the same as before, but something else improves. Kinda like a minor "radiation accident" (and get the player's buy in first!).

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

Since the effect is mental and enough dice to give a decent DEF listing' date=' that means only Egoists are ever going to defeat it. [/quote']

 

An entangled character could add his ego defense (if any) to his ego for calculating his mental strength.

 

SSgt Baloo's point is a good one. Simply increasing villain EGOs a bit and buying some Mental Defense (although in this case, Power Defense might be a more appropriate substitution) could do the trick.

 

You didn't say how many DEF and dice of BODY the entangle is, but having written up mental entangles before, they can get expensive for only a handful of dice. Instead of having the player get rid of the power, how about just increasing the BODY dice at the expense of the DEF?

 

For example, if he now has a 4 DEF, 4d6 Entangle, ask him about making it a 3 DEF, 5d6 Entangle (same cost). This still stops a 10 EGO person for a loooong time, but someone with a 15 EGO could "push" to do 4d6 against the Entangle, and a person with a 20 EGO can break free in a number of phases.

 

Another idea is for a gadgeteer to develop a Temporal Warp Suppressor, and make a mint selling it to Mr. Timestop's most frequent enemies. (Xd6 Dispel Mental Entangle, Trigger, 1 charge/day, No Range, OIF). Make the dispel enough to have a good chance of dispelling the effect. The 1-charge means that he can always hit someone a second time and they're still screwed, but it keeps people in play a bit longer. It's not Self Only, so someone can use his TWS to free a teammate (though this then puts him at risk). The good thing about this is that you can design an adventure around the gadgeteer sending mooks against the hero to gather research data to build the device, then the heroes hear about it getting sold, and they finally nab the gadgeteer (though a crate of MWS's is missing). After that, use them sparingly.

 

If all else fails (and especially if the player doesn't want to cooperate), since this has been used for years and seems to be a frequently-used power, you can turn the "kill the mentalist" thing on its head. In other words, the enemy all targets Mr. Timestop first, because he's a major threat. But that's not a lot of fun, IMO.

[Fireleaper]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

The power is an Entangle based on ECV. It's meant to simulate freezing the individual in time. Now ECV really isn't much better than versus plain ol' STR for this effect, but we needed something and this was pre-USPDB I and II.

 

Another option is to change how the power works. At the moment the information here indicates that it doesn't stop the person in time, it just slows down their mental processes to the point that they don't percieve the passing of time. When I have fiddled with the idea of any sort of "stasis field" effect I always seem to head back to temporal extradimensional movement.

 

as an example: Extra Dimensional movement 12 seconds (1 turn) forward in time, Usable As Attack (+1), Ranged (+1/2); 102 active;

Defences are: LS: Does Not Age, Any Time based power, anything else you can think of that would be appropriate.

Admittedly this method has the potential to be overpowering, but While the Villain is unable to act he is also unable to be harmed. And although inconvienienced will never necessarily be removed from the fight entirely. Plus if the target has one of the "reasonably common defences" he is immune period to the power. Also if you want other people to be able to free a "trapped" person then add physical manefestation as a limitation.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

If a Power that you allowed has become a problem you should"

 

A) Definitely rewrite the power to be legal according to the most current rules and assess whether that does anything to fix it.

 

If not, require the player to either retire the character or arrive at a mutually agreeable rewrite.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

SSgt Baloo's point is a good one. Simply increasing villain EGOs a bit and buying some Mental Defense (although in this case, Power Defense might be a more appropriate substitution) could do the trick.

 

10 Iron Will I: EGO +10, (Defense Only -1)

1 Iron Will II: Mental Defense +5 (Nonpersistent -1/4, Does not provide mental Awareness -1/4).

 

For 11 points, this adds 3d6 to the breakout roll, jacks the DECV up a chunk, and is entirely in-genre for any experienced superhero or villian to have.

 

Another construct to use would be the following:

 

3 Teleportation 1", Armor Piercing 2x +1, Reduced END (0 END) +1/2, persistent +1/2, only to escape entangles (-1)

 

The Armor Piercing aspect gets beyond the "not escapable by teleport" aspect. This could be anything from a really good dodge to a martial art to a meditation technique to the aforementioned technology sale.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

I let a player have a power when i first started the campaign and now years later it's a bit of a headache. I'm not going to ask the player to get rid of it (not without a decent replacement anyway) so let's skip that suggestion.

 

What I need are suggestions on how to deal with it.

 

The power is an Entangle based on ECV. It's meant to simulate freezing the individual in time. Now ECV really isn't much better than versus plain ol' STR for this effect, but we needed something and this was pre-USPDB I and II.

 

Since an entangle isn't blocked by a defense (Like PD, ED, Mental Defense, etc.) then it's always arriving at it's full size. Since the effect is mental and enough dice to give a decent DEF listing, that means only Egoists are ever going to defeat it. In some cases I've put an Egoist into the team to deal with this effect (as they could ego-attack it and remove it from anyone who is bundled up this way) but they've been taken out by other player who see what's going on and want their timestop guy to run rampant.

 

One thought I had was a missile-deflection type of effect (bouncing the attack at other players) but this isn't a missile.

 

Are there any other good ways to deal with the mental entangle that you've come across, other than having a mentalist on hand to crush it?

 

First, I'd suggest reading this.

 

While this isn't a true Mental Power, I would still say that it's close enough so that it can't be Missile Deflected. Also, Mental Defense doesn't help a person break out of it any more than PD/ED helps someone break out of a normal entangle.

 

And while a Mental Entangle generally paralyzes the subject, it doesn't really stop time for them since they can still perceive, and are aware of what goes on around them. Buying Stops A Given Sense on all 6 Sense Groups would just about complete the "illusion" of actually stopping time. However, if you reduced their Speed to 0, it gets much closer to actually stopping time for them (see p 39 of 5ER).

 

The target of this entangle can push their Ego (10 pts = +1d6), and I'd let them Haymaker as well. So even someone with a 10 Ego can muster a 5d6 attack in attempting to break out.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

The target of this entangle can push their Ego (10 pts = +1d6)' date=' and I'd let them Haymaker as well. So even someone with a 10 Ego can muster a 5d6 attack in attempting to break out.[/quote']

 

I thought it was like STR - 5 points = 1d6. Has that changed? I agree I would allow this to be Haymakered, and there is no penalty in doing so since you're already 0 DCV and not going anywhere in that extra segment.

[Blue]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

I'm not looking to rewrite the power unless it proves to be a real problem. I was just hoping there were ways of dealing with it, using existing mechanics, that I hadn't spotted already.

 

Since per the write-up in the ENTANGLE section, it would only be subject to attack by EGO breakout or EGO Attack, and there was no specific defense for it, I was just wanting to see if there was something I'm missing.

 

Sounds like NO.

 

I'm not going to make him rewrite the power. However, I am going to have to be certain I have someone on hand who can do something about it, else the game get to easy for them.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

I'm not looking to rewrite the power unless it proves to be a real problem. I was just hoping there were ways of dealing with it, using existing mechanics, that I hadn't spotted already.

 

Since per the write-up in the ENTANGLE section, it would only be subject to attack by EGO breakout or EGO Attack, and there was no specific defense for it, I was just wanting to see if there was something I'm missing.

 

Sounds like NO.

 

I'm not going to make him rewrite the power. However, I am going to have to be certain I have someone on hand who can do something about it, else the game get to easy for them.

 

Well, there's always:

 

1. A High DECV. The best defense is to not get hit.

 

2. Some sort of Mental Desolidification (not sure if it's legal, but it's a thought)

 

3. "Mental Contortionist" that can escape it with a roll like normal Contortionists sometimes can?

 

4. Drain Body + BOECV + Does Body + Continuous + Damage Shield + Fully Invisible + Zero END - Only Affects Mental Entangles?

 

5. And without any modification, there's the Pushed EGO.

 

If you could post the build for the power in question, it might help us.

 

Also, a change from 4th ed (I believe). Entangles no longer use the total Active Points to determine DEF. Now it's just the DEF that comes with the Entangle power itself.

[JmOz]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

Let the baddies haymaker and/or push there ego

[SteveZilla]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

I thought it was like STR - 5 points = 1d6. Has that changed? I agree I would allow this to be Haymakered' date=' and there is no penalty in doing so since you're already 0 DCV and not going anywhere in that extra segment.[/quote']

 

Actually, I found in the FAQ that Haymakering one's STR (and I presume EGO) to escape from an entangle is generally not allowed as the disadvantages of doing a Haymaker are significantly lessened *by* the entangle.

 

As far as how many dice the Ego grants, I believe it's treated like STR (i.e., a 10 Ego = 2d6). Which means it's the points of Ego, not Active Points of Ego.

 

In 5ER, under Entangle, and BOECV, it says that pushing Ego to escape is allowed, and grants +1d6. This is logical, as a push gives essentially 10 Active Points of the base power, which would make +5 Ego.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

Does the power explicitly have "not escapable by teleport" on it? (ie, the power affects the area they're standing in, rather than the individual.) If not, you could also have someone have "Teleport, usable on others" as a way to break their teammates out.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

whatever else you do, I would never allow anyone to purchase this power with more defence than dice.

 

Sure, it's book-legal, but it's broken as all heck.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

Does the power explicitly have "not escapable by teleport" on it? (ie' date=' the power affects the area they're standing in, rather than the individual.) If not, you could also have someone have "Teleport, usable on others" as a way to break their teammates out.[/quote']

 

Mental Entangles can't be escaped by Teleporting or becoming Desolid unless it has a limitation stating that it can. 5ER p 169.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

I let a player have a power when i first started the campaign and now years later it's a bit of a headache. I'm not going to ask the player to get rid of it (not without a decent replacement anyway) so let's skip that suggestion.

 

What I need are suggestions on how to deal with it.

 

The power is an Entangle based on ECV. It's meant to simulate freezing the individual in time. Now ECV really isn't much better than versus plain ol' STR for this effect, but we needed something and this was pre-USPDB I and II.

 

Since an entangle isn't blocked by a defense (Like PD, ED, Mental Defense, etc.) then it's always arriving at it's full size. Since the effect is mental and enough dice to give a decent DEF listing, that means only Egoists are ever going to defeat it. In some cases I've put an Egoist into the team to deal with this effect (as they could ego-attack it and remove it from anyone who is bundled up this way) but they've been taken out by other player who see what's going on and want their timestop guy to run rampant.

 

One thought I had was a missile-deflection type of effect (bouncing the attack at other players) but this isn't a missile.

 

Are there any other good ways to deal with the mental entangle that you've come across, other than having a mentalist on hand to crush it?

 

2 DEF/2D6 Entangle - BOECV(+1), Takes No Damage From Physical Attacks(+1/4), Works Against EGO, Not STR(+1/4), Cannot Form Barriers(-1/4)

 

50 Active Points.

 

The problem starts if the DEF hits 3 (or more), Then those with less than a 15 Ego (and no mental powers) won't be able to escape on their own, even with pushing. But it is a 75 AP power.

 

About how to overcome this. How about a Mentalist with:

 

6d6 Aid Ego - Delayed Fade Rate(5 AP per 5 Minutes; +1/2)

 

That boosts his teammates before combat?

[OzMike]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

I let a player have a power when i first started the campaign and now years later it's a bit of a headache. I'm not going to ask the player to get rid of it (not without a decent replacement anyway) so let's skip that suggestion.

 

What I need are suggestions on how to deal with it.

 

The power is an Entangle based on ECV. It's meant to simulate freezing the individual in time. Now ECV really isn't much better than versus plain ol' STR for this effect, but we needed something and this was pre-USPDB I and II.

 

I'd suggest keep the power but re-writing it to be more accurate to the effect it is simulating - either a Transform or an extra-dimensional movement usable against other to send them 'outside of time' or what have you. The transform would be the preferred option for me, as the 'Entangle' actually grants Immunity to Aging and would probably also make the individual immune to other time effect powers. Only problem is the target cannot move or act. Then the transform could wear off over time.

 

Or buy it as a SPD and DEX and movement power Drain/Suppress. The Drain is a particularly nasty version, even at a 5 pt recovery rate. And if you make it a transfer? Look out. Yes, it can get expensive, but the drain and transfers can chip away at a person's 'temporal stability'.

 

Also, just because it was initially defined as an 'Entangle' doesn't mean it is. I don't think a mental entangle is the best way of simulating the power, and from what you've said it is a headache the way it is. If you still want to keep the Entangle maybe place some limitations on it to make it more workable and appropriate to the power effect you described (e.g. Cannot make barriers, not vs Life Support: Aging), save the player some points, and allow them to buy something else while keeping their Timestop.

 

And there is always Mental Damage Shields.

[Blue]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

Stevezilla's build is pretty close to the build. I believe it's probably 4 or 5D6 (Don't have a copy of the character in front of me) and thus 4 or 5 DEF and limited uses; Certainly enough to stop a "talented non-mentalist" (EGO 15 or so).

 

I will allow pushing. It makes some sense; Straining to break free.

 

I wish I'd built the timestop differently (A SPD drain like in USPD is what came up during my later research) but that ship has sailed. It's a player who would probably revolt if I changed it for him now.

 

I'm also trying to avoid specific power constructs to avoid this problem power. But I do think that an opponent who is the foil for this power will be showing up; A time-based villain who doesn't like what the character is doing to the timeline. He won't be in all adventures, but he'll make the player think at least.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

If you still want to keep the Entangle maybe place some limitations on it to make it more workable and appropriate to the power effect you described (e.g. Cannot make barriers' date=' not vs Life Support: Aging), save the player some points, and allow them to buy something else while keeping their Timestop.[/quote']

 

Why would it take a limitation so that it doesn't work against characters with Life Support: Longevity (or Immortal)? The only way I'd see that was if their Life Support was because they have some temporal powers of their own, as opposed to just not aging. In which case it would be not vs Characters with Temporal Powers (IMO).

[SteveZilla]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

Stevezilla's build is pretty close to the build. I believe it's probably 4 or 5D6 (Don't have a copy of the character in front of me) and thus 4 or 5 DEF and limited uses; Certainly enough to stop a "talented non-mentalist" (EGO 15 or so).

 

My God. A 4 DEF/4d6 version is 100 Active Points! No wonder it's so much trouble.

 

I wish I'd built the timestop differently (A SPD drain like in USPD is what came up during my later research) but that ship has sailed. It's a player who would probably revolt if I changed it for him now.

 

You can always approach him with the fact that mechanically, it's not a time stopper. The character can still perceive, communicate, and use any powers that don't involve physical movement of their body (like some indirect powers). Take a Telekinetic that can "feel" everything around them with their power (Ranged, Discriminatory, 360º Sensing, and Targeting on the Touch Sense Group). A Mental Entangle would be just an inconvenience, as they could still attack anybody around them with their TK.

 

The "truest" time-stop is to reduce their SPD to (or below) zero. Or use some EDM kludge.

 

I'm also trying to avoid specific power constructs to avoid this problem power. But I do think that an opponent who is the foil for this power will be showing up; A time-based villain who doesn't like what the character is doing to the timeline. He won't be in all adventures' date=' but he'll make the player think at least.[/quote']

 

Ah, a Hunted just for him, and based upon his powers. Nice! And the more he uses the time-stop/mental entangle, the greater the chance of this villain showing up? Use it rarely, and it;s 8-, but use it often and it can go to 14- (or higher!).

 

But I would suggest that even if you do use this villain, you should approach the player with the information that his power does not mechanically do what the F/X says it does.

[OzMike]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

Why would it take a limitation so that it doesn't work against characters with Life Support: Longevity (or Immortal)? The only way I'd see that was if their Life Support was because they have some temporal powers of their own' date=' as opposed to just not aging. In which case it would be not vs Characters with Temporal Powers (IMO).[/quote']

 

Yes indeedy - was writing tired and in shorthand and also unconsciously applying a house rule I've used in the past - that any LS: Aging/Immortality is representative of a different relationship with temporal energies to 'normal folks'.

 

What you said.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

Stevezilla's build is pretty close to the build. I believe it's probably 4 or 5D6 (Don't have a copy of the character in front of me) and thus 4 or 5 DEF and limited uses; Certainly enough to stop a "talented non-mentalist" (EGO 15 or so).

 

So that makes this a 100 to 125 AP power. I can see where that would cause balance problems in a typical Supers game - what AP level do the other characters' (heroes and villains) attacks reach?

 

I'm also trying to avoid specific power constructs to avoid this problem power. But I do think that an opponent who is the foil for this power will be showing up; A time-based villain who doesn't like what the character is doing to the timeline. He won't be in all adventures' date=' but he'll make the player think at least.[/quote']

 

When considering a "foil" character, consider giving the foil a mechanically similar power, at the same AP level. I suspect the comments of the other players will quickly establish whether this power is excessive for your game. It seems quite reasonable that a time-based villain could also have a time stop power.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

When considering a "foil" character' date=' consider giving the foil a mechanically similar power, at the same AP level. I suspect the comments of the other players will quickly establish whether this power is excessive for your game. It seems quite reasonable that a time-based villain could also have a time stop power.[/quote']

 

Depending on how it might be received by the PCs you might even make this foil a visiter from a nearby dimension who is that character's evil counterpart (an old and respected custom of the genre).

[SteveZilla]

Re: Timestop Difficulties

 

To indicate that, he'd need the "Evil Spock Goatee".