Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

[mayapuppies]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

So I have a question, how do you explain the non-stacking of FF and Armor?

 

I mean, if the attack gets through the FF isn't the armor still in the way?

 

Understand that this is an exact argument I received from my players (in a Champions game).

[Eosin]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

So I have a question, how do you explain the non-stacking of FF and Armor?

 

I mean, if the attack gets through the FF isn't the armor still in the way?

 

Understand that this is an exact argument I received from my players (in a Champions game).

 

First, let's say that a player had a 2 rDP FF with Power DEF vs Magic... I would likely let such a thing fly. It is obviously designed to work irrespective of armor.

 

Now let's say the mage wants to cast Spectral Armor of the Erenn Battle Lords.... This is obviously meant to be some sort of armor-ish spell. I'd deny the benefits of the spell in the same way that I deny the armor benefits of two stacked suits of platemail.

 

That said, I don't have FFs in fantasy games except in rare cases, some special spells (12 rPD FF (-1) Only versus magic), and when something provides an explicit defense against a type of attack (telekenetic shield versus arrows or maybe versus fire). This is easier since my games tend to be on the low spectrum of fantasy. Think Jedi, Aes Sedai, or Wierding Way.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

So basically, "the armor gets in the way"?

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

Well you see, the nature of metal interferes with magic in such a way that they can't work together. The more metal there is, the stronger the magical force field has to be to overcome it. Or some such magi-babble.

 

As for END, I've pretty much done without it. Spellcasters induce long term endurance loss from casting spells, and they keep track of that. But, I've found that even the strongest giant in the party at maximum running and swinging would take 4-5 turns to wear out. So, there's not really any point in tracking END during combat. That being said, it does make some sense to track END during a chase or some such thing. When the giant's run a couple of miles in his suit of chainmail, he may be a bit too worn out to keep his distance from the approaching pack of wolves.

[Old Man]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

I thought it was all about the mind set of the caster and his will.

 

His magical bubble of protection isn't going to have much effect if he already believes he is invulnerable in his full lobster plate.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

On himself, sure that seems a viable explanation. But if he's casting his force field on the mighty warrior, then the metal thingy.

 

You could just tell your players "because it's unbalancing" if they don't think your in game explanation is credible.

[stewart]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

i'm going to be running my first FH game (though i have played HERO before) and i was going to use STUN and END and the hit locations, but keep the DC of the weapons and the DEF of the armor as they are in the FH. i'm 50-50 on using the bleeding rules, sometimes it soudns cool and sometimes it sounds like a pain. but i know i don't want critical hits (though i might allow critical hits on a natural roll or 3 and fumbles on a 18) or impairing wounds.

 

i want to think that the above will make combat lethal enough that the players characters won't enter into it lightly, but not SO dangerous that average "henchmen" type npcs will be a big threat, at leat not one-on-one (and i really like the above suggestions for grunts by NuSoardGraphite).

 

i'm more worried about how to use healing properly, so that any wounds taken won't be trivial.

[Markdoc]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

My argument for "doesn't stack" is pretty simple. If you're wearing plate armour you have defences equivalent to hardened steel. If you have an 8 DEF FF, you have defences equivalent to hardened steel. Add the two together and you have defences equivalent to..... hardened steel.

 

A FF has no significant thickness - a person with one on is not encumbered and doesn't have problems with being unable to grasp thiongs and so on. So essentially you are adding the equivalent of a teensy fraction of a millimeter of steel to several milimetres of steel. Same applies to any mystical armour. If it's thick enough and "real enough" to add significantly to armour underneath, it's also thick enough and real enough to encumber so much it can't be worn with armour.

 

Of course it doesn't have an additional effect.

 

Likewise, wearing your 8 DEF FF over leather is not going to help. An attack that blows through the equivalent of hardened steel is not going to be significantly slowed by a bit of padded leather. Oh sure, occasionally it might help a teensy bit, in either case, but the damage rules are not granular enough to worry about that. You simply get the best of what you have.

 

Same with combat luck. It protects you (mostly) from blows that might have hit hard enough to harm. If you have more DEF from armour than combat luck, any blow that struck hard enough to penetrate your armour by definition was not turned aside by your combat luck. Again,you get the best of combat luck or armour, not both. same applies to armour defined as mystically warding away attacks

 

cheers, Mark

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

My argument for "doesn't stack" is pretty simple. If you're wearing plate armour you have defences equivalent to hardened steel. If you have an 8 DEF FF, you have defences equivalent to hardened steel. Add the two together and you have defences equivalent to..... hardened steel.

 

A FF has no significant thickness - a person with one on is not encumbered and doesn't have problems with being unable to grasp thiongs and so on. So essentially you are adding the equivalent of a teensy fraction of a millimeter of steel to several milimetres of steel. Same applies to any mystical armour. If it's thick enough and "real enough" to add significantly to armour underneath, it's also thick enough and real enough to encumber so much it can't be worn with armour.

 

Of course it doesn't have an additional effect.

 

Likewise, wearing your 8 DEF FF over leather is not going to help. An attack that blows through the equivalent of hardened steel is not going to be significantly slowed by a bit of padded leather. Oh sure, occasionally it might help a teensy bit, in either case, but the damage rules are not granular enough to worry about that. You simply get the best of what you have.

 

Same with combat luck. It protects you (mostly) from blows that might have hit hard enough to harm. If you have more DEF from armour than combat luck, any blow that struck hard enough to penetrate your armour by definition was not turned aside by your combat luck. Again,you get the best of combat luck or armour, not both. same applies to armour defined as mystically warding away attacks

 

cheers, Mark

Yep, that's usually my take on the idea too.

[LordGhee]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

I First ran a FH campaign when it came out in the early 80's. I decided to try all of the rules and this set the tone for the many of the campaigns in El Paso since.

 

Generally we play

 

Hit locations. equipment bought. Depends on the campaign on the max Armour avb. Usually it is a high Fantasy style so all are avb.

 

(in the robbing hood game the Max amour was 7 double chain with plate helmets and elbows knees )

 

Magic is powers with frameworks. MA are allowed. (more common now than a few years ago.)

 

Magic items are given to the players and do not count toward exp awarded. In general thou Magic items are few but usually powerful. I miss the scroll, potion, ring, wand. swords. ect finds of D@D.

 

Grunts

 

well I usually build them on 25/25 Sargent experience types at 50/50. they use same rules as everyone else.

 

so in the last Campaign which was a WuXia the soldiers of course had MA but the bandits did not. In my last High Fantasy camping the soldiers did not have MA and the PC did not have Ma (just was not in that culture), In my Mycenaean game (The Son of Hercules game) a player was playing an Assassin from the order of the assassins so he had MA. His secret art.

 

If you are new try no MA at first.

 

I like weapon lengths ocv mod and Long term Endurance but generally the others in the group do not.

 

Bleeding and crits have been used in about half the games but is becoming more common.

 

they weapon charts are usable but I modify them.

 

shields, I have fought with a shield in reenactments so I have modify their use.

offhand weapon or dagger present +1 CV

buckler ( covers hand and arm) +2

small (medieval heater or roman cav round shield, shoulder to waist)+3

Med ( Greek round Hoplon or viking round, covers shoulder to knee top) +4

Large (example roman rectangle designer to cover from ankle to shoulder) +5

and I know that depending on what period that the styles of shields change.

 

Shields can be used active or passive. Passive they cover hit locations from the arc it is presented and act as a force wall. this for example allows William Wallace in Brave heart to "hide" behind his small shield from the arrows raining down on him and allow you to cover a fallen friend and yourself from that fire. (skill roll could be required ect) people can target uncovered locations.

Active, one gets the DCV from all perceived attacks. this generally cost endurance.

 

 

In general the other game masters have run the standard rules and they work fine.

 

I allow magic items to be created usually this requires items in game. like lotus flower pollen to create a sleep dust.

 

Good Luck

 

Lord Ghee

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

On himself, sure that seems a viable explanation. But if he's casting his force field on the mighty warrior, then the metal thingy.

 

You could just tell your players "because it's unbalancing" if they don't think your in game explanation is credible.

 

What's your game explanation for not allowing leather armor worn under plate armor to provide additional protection?

 

Sure, there's a sizing issue, but he could have his armor custom-made so the leather fits underneath the plate armor...

[LordGhee]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

In Cleopatra (R Burton and E. Taylor) many of the players are seen putting on their Armour. Both Caesar and Anthony wear plate over leather.

 

check it out.

 

Lord Ghee

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

In Cleopatra (R Burton and E. Taylor) many of the players are seen putting on their Armour. Both Caesar and Anthony wear plate over leather.

 

check it out.

 

Lord Ghee

 

Well, speaking as someone who used to fight in armor quite a bit...

Generally speaking, almost ALL metal armor needs some padding underneath it, and in my games I don't let the rDef's stack, for much the same reason as Marcdoc just explained. I do, however, tend to write up padding/quilted jack/gambesons and the like with extra PD & ED (Non resistant), generally to the tune of PD= padding rDefx2 & ED=Padding rDefx1. So a quilted Leather Gambeson that provides 2 DEF all by its lonesome doesn't stack if worn under armor, but adds an extra +4PD &+2ED. Makes pummeling guys in armor rather hard to do with Normal attacks, which is IME both right & proper.

 

Trying to wear armor WITHOUT the padding should impose some fairly nasty penalties over a fairly short period of time. I've attempted it before in a couple of different styles of plate, mail, or combonations of the two.

It sucks.

No, let me amend that... it REALLY sucks.

And pulling mail links out of a laceration isn't much fun either.

 

I used to do a fairly brisk trade sewing leather & sheepskin liners into burgonets for my buddy's unit back in the day.

[Old Man]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

What's your game explanation for not allowing leather armor worn under plate armor to provide additional protection?

 

Sure, there's a sizing issue, but he could have his armor custom-made so the leather fits underneath the plate armor...

 

I would argue that plate armor is assumed to have underlying leather. Without it, the DEF of the plate is reduced, especially wrt STUN damage.

 

Of course, historically this was not always the case. Lorica segmentata, IIRC, was not really padded, with just a double layer of linen tunic under it.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

What's your game explanation for not allowing leather armor worn under plate armor to provide additional protection?

 

Sure, there's a sizing issue, but he could have his armor custom-made so the leather fits underneath the plate armor...

 

Because metal interferes with the protective attributes of leather. It's a mystical thingy. Trust me.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

I would argue that plate armor is assumed to have underlying leather. Without it, the DEF of the plate is reduced, especially wrt STUN damage.

 

Of course, historically this was not always the case. Lorica segmentata, IIRC, was not really padded, with just a double layer of linen tunic under it.

 

Hence why I give the extra bonus for actual padded/quilted undergarments. Generally speaking, IME, a single layer of decent (heavy clothing grade) leather or a couple layers of heavy fabric (like the aforementioned linen soliders tunics) is enough to allow you to wear the armor comfortably, but doesn't optimise the shock absorbing characteristics of the armor. Adding something with some decent loft (a layer of sheepskin, quilted linen w/batting heavy felted wool, or the classic border reiver 7 layers of linen quilted together) lets you absorb a LOT more punishment. Trying to wear metal armor over light fabric (Irish linen, silk, garment weight wool, etc) results in lots of shifting, inching, rashes, abrasions, infections and other nastiness. OTOH, it IS much cooler (better ventilation). Less LTE, maybe?

[LordGhee]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

some people used leather under thier plate for the extra def, but leather is the hottest of armours (go figure) so the weight of it and the heat factor made it less likley of it use. Leather is also generally more flexable (chain best) which you lose when you wear it with a plate stlye armour.

 

Lord Ghee

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

some people used leather under thier plate for the extra def, but leather is the hottest of armours (go figure) so the weight of it and the heat factor made it less likley of it use. Leather is also generally more flexable (chain best) which you lose when you wear it with a plate stlye armour.

 

Lord Ghee

 

By the by, the IME in both my posts is shorthand for "In My Experience"

I spent 15 years as a historical re-enactor and fight choreographer, so what I'm relating isn't book learned, but from first hand (sometimes painful) observations.

That being said, for all I know, you have a similar background.

In my case, after trying a number of different padding schemes under my mail hauberk and various assorted plate bits, I ended up using a gambeson made from a shearling sheepskin with a 4oz suede shell over, and my plate gauntlets were backed with 2oz leather gauntlets reinforced at the common stress & impact points with a second layer, and with a 4oz cuff. This was, for me, the best compromise between protection, durability, and heat dispersal. my quilted canvas gambeson with it wool batting was WAY more insulated... It very nearly dropped me from heatstroke on at least one occasion I can recall right off the top of my head. The lack of padding is potentially worse... The combonation of sweat, grime, oil, dirt and rust one aquires fighting in the stuff is a BEAUTIFUL soup for creating infections. I damn near lost my arm to blood poisoning one time fighting without the proper padding... a simple abrasion, from the vambrace I was wearing rubbing me wrong, went bad REAL quick. This was with a raw silk shirt as "padding"

 

Hope this doesn't sound snippy...it's not meant to. Just contributing my practical observations on the topic. One reason I love FH is that it doesn't take a whole lot of tweaking to fit my experiences fairly accurately, and that makes my Sim side very happy.

[LordGhee]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

You not sound snippy, you sound informed, me Lord Ghee twenty years experience re-enactor. Me have many Friends that are re-enactors, seen many armours, many styles.

 

Me like Fantasy Hero also because just tweak to get sim result.

Mainly fought leather with scales.

best seen was recreated suit of brigande from Denmark mass grave.

course plate really best (not afford I).

used old judo ghee as padding (thick).

used chain (with wool tunic roman style now understand why use big shield) few time over years not protect enough.

Mardock know lot also.

fought next to a real pike unit (12 to 14 foot pikes) my unit had large Shields and pole. Pike awesome.

Have built, armour, catapults, ballistas, and castle (a gate that worked,two doors that swung open and had two towers the walls where hay bails that we fought over.

 

Lord Ghee rep you.

Lord Ghee

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

My take on layering armor falls back on interpreting the mechanics of the game. Looking at the armor table in FH, you see that every doubling of real armor (mass-wise) adds 2 to the armor's DEF rating. If you add a forcefield to that, you have to compare the DEF of the FF and the armor to see if they will have any stacking effect at all. If the FF is significantly stronger or weaker than the armor, then you'll get the "blow-through" effect described by Markdoc. If they are equivalent, then you can add up to 2 DEF for the stacking effect. If they're almost equivalent, you'll only get to add 1.

 

Keeping magic fairly rare also helps, whether by outright limiting the number of magic wielders, or by tweaking the mechanics so that it's difficult to do on the fly.

 

As far as layering regular forms of armor, I agree with Amadan's reasoning. Metal armor already includes leather or quilting underneath as padding. Adding more padding doesn't improve the protection.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

You not sound snippy, you sound informed, me Lord Ghee twenty years experience re-enactor. Me have many Friends that are re-enactors, seen many armours, many styles.

 

Me like Fantasy Hero also because just tweak to get sim result.

Mainly fought leather with scales.

best seen was recreated suit of brigande from Denmark mass grave.

course plate really best (not afford I).

used old judo ghee as padding (thick).

used chain (with wool tunic roman style now understand why use big shield) few time over years not protect enough.

Mardock know lot also.

fought next to a real pike unit (12 to 14 foot pikes) my unit had large Shields and pole. Pike awesome.

Have built, armour, catapults, ballistas, and castle (a gate that worked,two doors that swung open and had two towers the walls where hay bails that we fought over.

 

Lord Ghee rep you.

Lord Ghee

Ook!

I've gotten to charge a polearm line with 8' bill hooks in front and 12' pikes in a second rank and partial 3rd rank. "Pike Awesome"... yeah. Hedge of pointy bits makes Amadan pause.

Mail is an expensive sack of knitting that keeps the squishy bits inside:nonp:

 

Sounds like we'd have WAYYYY too much to talk about.

[LordGhee]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

the trick is to be the charging pole arm unit not the unit being charge by the pole arm unit.

 

 

Lord ghee

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

I'm planning to run my first FH game and a few things worry me about using Hero for fantasy. The first is stun vs body damage. In hero' date=' 99% of the time, when someone goes down, they're unconscious. How do you make battle more lethal?[/quote']

 

Never seemed necessary to me. Wounded badguys are usually more interested in seeking medical attention than rejoining the fray. Wounded PCs usually were, too.

 

The vast majority of the bad guy's henchmen were just ordinary guys, maybe wearing a leather helmet and a padded shirt. They had the bare minimum characteristics, equipment and skills required to do their job, and were 0 points plus disads. These guys were the "extras". Extras were intentionally fragile. One hit and they went down. Throw a bench or table at 'em in a barfight and you knock a whole row of 'em down. Extras were primarily used to remind the PCs that yes they were indeed better at kicking butt than ordinary schmoes.

 

The next level of henchmen were the "walk-ons". Walk-ons were usually sergeants, etc. They were built on 25/25 and went down when they took 1d6+1 hits if they weren't stunned/KOed by any one blow.

 

The next level of henchmen were the "Starring Roles", ranged between 50/25 up to the heroes' point levels or more. Most of these guys were the Big Baddie's lieutenants, although occasionally one of these might be an independent "boss" himself. These guys had to be taken out the old-fashioned way.

 

Above this level was the "Special Guest Star". This guy was somewhat more powerful than the characters, but was (usually) no match for the whole bunch.

 

What with bleeding, impairment, and hit point loss, most characters were happy to live through a fight. Of course, providing first aid after the combat was part of fighting, too.

 

We usually did the following for bleeding:

1. During combat, keep track of how many "wounds" your character has. A wound is defined as any injury which caused the character to lose body.
   
2. After combat ends, the character makes a CON roll to avoid going into "shock" due to blood loss.
   
3. If the roll succeeds, any of the following actions may be taken:
   1. Healing magic may be applied, if available.
      
   2. Healing skills (healing, herbalist, chirurgeon, etc.) may be applied, if available. If the healer makes his roll, restore 1 BOD. For every 2 points the healer makes his roll by, restore one additional BOD.
      
   3. Bandage/clean all wounds: restores one BOD.

[*]If he fails his roll, he takes one last injury equal to 1 body times the number of wounds he incurred during battle. This damage may only be temporary, depending on what happens next.

[*]Roll 1d6-1 for STUN and apply as if it were a NND attack.

[*]Whoever is still conscious may do one of the following:

1. Apply healing magic, if able. The healing magic, in addition to having its normal effect, restores the "shock damage" (bod and stun lost to shock). The victim is allowed a free recovery at this point.
   
2. Apply healing/herbalist/chirurgeon skill or equivalent, if able. If the healer makes his roll at all, the BOD lost to shock is restored. For every 2 points the healer makes his roll by, restore one additional BOD. The victim is allowed a free recovery at this point.
   
3. Nothing, in which case, the victim soon (1d6 X 10 minutes) dies of shock/blood loss. If someone awakens them so they can give their "death speech", they traditionally last for about 2 minutes. This is usually long enough for a deathbed confession or cryptic, partial clue to be given (The goldmine is... The goldmine is... aaaaarrrgh!")
   
4. Apply first aid. This last is something of an everyman skill. The aiding character does nothing except apply direct pressure, elevate the victim's feet (or head), keep the victim warm (blanket or handy flask of brandy), etc. While the character does this (more-or-less continuously), he extends the victim's life by up to one hour (1d6 X 10 minutes).

 

Second - how do you deal with Endurance? I like endurance for spellcasters' date=' but I'm not sure I like it for warriors and rogues and other people who are just running around. I mean, it's cool to have a mechanic to use to wear someone down by making them run around too much, but I'm just not sure it'll be worth all the bookkeeping.[/quote']

 

We always slavishly used END in all our campaigns. I could never quite wrap my head around the LTE rules, however. They sounded like a good idea, but I needed a better explanation than came with the rules. Still do.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

I haven't played Fantasy Hero recently but I found that END was one of the things that made Hero almost unique (when I first played it) in balancing heavy armoured guys versus light nimble ones.

 

If you used heavy armour then you burned END pretty quickly just by fighting. Light nimble guy could almost depend on you getting tired. It was great. I didn't tend to track END for normal stuff but for great blows, sprints and wearing armour it was cool.

 

 

Doc

[Manic Typist]

Re: Dealing with Stun, End etc in Fantasty

 

Oh, thought.

 

How do you model the END usage from wearing heavy armor without presenting something far too cumbersome to the players?