Economy????

[pdegeest]

My friends and I don't own a single HERO book so maybe this is a dumb question but it comes up every time we talk about starting a HERO campaign. From the revues/samples/FAQ we've read, it sounds like you buy all your powers/abilities/etc with character points. So if I want a character like the Punisher (a normal human with an arsenal of weapons) I spend character points on damage dealing effects (guns, grenades), damage reducers (body armor) maybe some gadgets. And just to make sure I understand how it works: if I spend X character points to give the Punisher a flamethrower, I'm not really buying a flamethrower, I'm buying a ranged AOE fire attack that deals Xd6 damage and just calling it a 'flamethrower'... is that correct? If that is correct, here are my questions:

 

Do normal items work the same way as super powers that simulate said items (is a power that I design to simulate a flamethrower better than a flamethrower I take from a fallen opponent)?

 

Whats to stop my character from spending his character points on something else and buying (or otherwise aquiring during an adventure) a flamethrower, gun, grenades, gadgets, body armor, etc?

 

Is finding a flamethrower just like gaining a new power without having to spend any character points?

 

How does this effect the game economy if items are purchased with character points instead of money?

 

Is there money? If so, what do you spend it on?

 

Like I said, we haven't read the rules yet (we've ordered the core rulebook but it hasn't arrived yet) so maybe this is a simple question but one guy refuses to play because he thinks weapons/items don't exist and are only simulated with character points. Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.

[archermoo]

Re: Economy????

 

The answer to your questions depends on the type of campaign you are playing. At the superheroic level, any powers that your character has access to must be purchased with character points rather than money. Generally if you take a weapons from someone during a fight, you can go ahead and use it during the fight, but if you want to continue using it down the line you need to pay the points for it.

 

At the heroic level, in general you don't pay points for any powers except for special/unique/magical type items, you pay money instead. And in general you have fewer character points than superheroic characters.

 

Money generally doesn't figure into superheroic level campaigns nearly as much as it figures into heroic ones.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Economy????

 

Generally things you pay points for are more reliable than items bought with money.

 

In certain genre games, the amount of useful items is controled by how much money the GM allows players to have and what would be available in the game world. In others, anything the character picks up and expects to use on a regular basis would need to be purchased with experience points.

[Fitz]

Re: Economy????

 

Campaigns are normally defined as Heroic or Superheroic.

 

In Heroic campaigns, items like guns and flamethrowers are bought with money; all the character needs is the skill to use it (and the money!). Characters are normally within the range of human possibility in terms of their Characteristics, but not always. This is the system used in most RPGs.

 

In Superheroic campaigns, characters normally have to pay character points for their gadgets as well as their innate powers. Sure, they could pick up a gun in the course of an adventure and use it, but if they wanted to keep on using it (i.e. if they wanted to add it to their character concept) then they'd have to pay for it in character points. The reason for this is to better simulate the superhero comic genre.

 

The two campaign styles don't mix and match well, so you need to decide up-front which way you're going to go.

[pdegeest]

Re: Economy????

 

We're planning a super hero campaign. Most of the players want a character with super powers but the friend in question prefers characters like the Punisher or Batman (no powers, uses gadgets, weapons and intelligence to defeat enemies). He won't want to play if he can only get new weapons/gadgets by spending character points. Are there alternate rules or does that throw the game balance out of whack if you can essentially find new powers on fallen opponents?

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Economy????

 

These two have essentially hit it on the head. However, there are 'tricks' to be had for the guy who wants to do the whole 'Punisher' thing; a Real Gadgets Variable Power Pool is just the thing for him, as is the Dark Champions book that gives examples of all sorts of weapons, gizmos, and general nastiness.

 

Presuming you're playing a Superheroic game, however, there are a few genre considerations between buying a flamethrower/grenade/SMG with 'money', and doing so with 'points'.

 

Anything bought with points is, generally, yours. You can use it regularly, you can always go back and get another one if that one gets broken, etc. If you buy it with money, it's a catch-as-catch-can. Tony Stark uses pressor beams and such in his suit; Batman uses all sorts of gadgets. But all of Superman's powers are, well, Superman. You aren't going to find Superman strolling into his closet, putting on a utility belt, and zooming out the window -- I mean, some of that stuff really WOULD be useful to him, you know? He doesn't do it, though, not because Clark Kent on his newspaperman salary can't afford it, but because a) it isn't in his character's nature, and he hasn't paid points for it. All of Batman's points went into his gadgets; all of Superman's, into his mighty Kryptonian powers.

 

There are recommendations for how to handle 'stuff' in various types of campaigns; generally, a Heroic-level campaign lets you get normal things (handcuffs, a gun, an audio bug) for money and use them regularly. Superheroic-level conventions, on the other hand, say that you can use those things as one-shots if you come across them, but to use them regularly -- to make them part of your character -- you need to pay points for them.

 

If he doesn't like this, really there's nothing you can do, except note that a VPP Gadget Pool (as above) essentially lets you have a warehouse of gear, selections of which you carry around at any particular time. In a superheroic campaign, money is sort of vague. Tony Stark and Lex Luthor rarely worried about where their next meal was coming from (15 points in wealth); Peter Parker worried constantly about whether he'd be able to make the rent (-5 point wealth disad). It's all about the conventions you adopt for the game.

[pdegeest]

Re: Economy????

 

Thanks everyone! You've answered my questions more than adequately!

 

I'll tell him how it is and he can play with us or play with himself. I think his desire for equipment comes from years of playing D&D... he always enjoyed finding loot more than completing the quest. Maybe a guy who only adventures for the loot doesn't have the mentality to play a HERO.

[Warp9]

Re: Economy????

 

We're planning a super hero campaign. Most of the players want a character with super powers but the friend in question prefers characters like the Punisher or Batman (no powers' date=' uses gadgets, weapons and intelligence to defeat enemies). He won't want to play if he can only get new weapons/gadgets by spending character points. Are there alternate rules or does that throw the game balance out of whack if you can essentially find new powers on fallen opponents?[/quote']

You can have a game with "super-heroes" and also allow characters to pick up items without spending points.

 

It may not be the normal way things are done, but it is doable.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Economy????

 

Another thing to note, even if you don't want to fuss with a VPP, is that Multipowers are pretty cheap ways to get lots of powers ... a quick drop of 2 or 3 points can often get a full slot.

[JmOz]

Re: Economy????

 

A VPP sounds perfect for him, A VPP is a special type of power (called a power Framework) that allows you to basicaly change powers often.

 

Here is one based on some optional rules in Dark Champions converted for normal super heroes. Assuming a relativly standard super hero game:

 

Kit: 80 point VPP, Foci (-1/4), Only change in armory (-1/2), Limited Power Selection: only weapons in armory (-1/4)

Total cost: 100 points

 

This leaves enough points to make a 250 point character who can have 100 points of gadgets on him at any time, the gadgets can

 

Okay the player would have to keep 2 lists, the kit and the armory, the kit is what he has on him, the armory is what he has back home, obviously he can only change equipment when he goes home or he finds it

 

Each weapon would have a real points cost, he can have up to 80 points of equipment as his kit at any time

 

If he finds a weapon he can add it to his armory, he can also use it (per normal rules) for that adventure. In the future he would have to choose to put it in his kit

 

For the record a 250 point character is a low power super or a extremly powerful non super, so even without equipment the character would be doing ok

[gojira]

Re: Economy????

 

Yeah the important thing is character concept. You have to ask, "Does this character have a whole warehouse full of stuff somewhere for him to change his devices all the time? Why?" If a character lives out of his battle van, he probably doesn't have a lot of stuff. And if he's not wealthy and he doesn't have self contained powers, how does he afford all his stuff and still have time to go adventuring?

 

Spiderman and Superman both have cruddy jobs but they don't have to keep buying stuff for their powers. They just hear a cry for help and they go.

 

Frank Castle, well, let's just say I've never been into The Punisher. I have no idea how he affords all those bullets he sprays around. Or why the cops haven't nailed him. He's just a guy with a van, fer chrissakes.

 

One could play a superhero who can only adventure a couple of days per month and the rest of the time he drives a truck-and-trailer long-haul. It might even be interesting to play a gritty and realistic superhero game where characters have to be really concerned about their day jobs and the government catching them and what-not. It's just not normally what I think of when someone mentions superheroes.

 

If and when you get Champions, check out the character Nighthawk. He's basically a Batman clone. His power set is bought as a really large Multipower. He can pull stuff out of his utility belt all day long. And for as little as 1 or 2 character points, he can add another slot, so it doesn't take that many character points to allow him to add a new item.

 

Gadget pools and VPP has already been mentioned.

 

One thing about HERO is, it really does try to nudge you in the direction of "correct play," at least a bit. Superheroes are not looters. They don't go around raiding enemies to get more stuff. Batman does not clobber Dr. Freeze and then go around hunting thugs and the Joker with Doc's Freeze Ray. So the whole DnD "loot and scoot" mentality is strongly discouraged by the rule-set for supers.

 

That said, I and many others allow characters to carry ordinary items because it's a little foolish not to. Cell phones, rope, a clean change of underwear, road flares, first aid kit, breath mints, etc. It's ok to allow a reasonably sized kit. Just remember that it's real stuff and probably going to go kablowie the first time it gets hit with some huge fire ball or whatever the enemy is throwing today.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Economy????

 

Frank Castle, well, let's just say I've never been into The Punisher. I have no idea how he affords all those bullets he sprays around. Or why the cops haven't nailed him. He's just a guy with a van, fer chrissakes.

 

...

 

One thing about HERO is, it really does try to nudge you in the direction of "correct play," at least a bit. Superheroes are not looters. They don't go around raiding enemies to get more stuff. Batman does not clobber Dr. Freeze and then go around hunting thugs and the Joker with Doc's Freeze Ray. So the whole DnD "loot and scoot" mentality is strongly discouraged by the rule-set for supers.

 

Actually, this is exactly how Frank Castle works. It helps that his main targets are street-level thugs/criminals -- the Mob, basically. He doesn't get freeze-rays or flame throwers (usually). However, he's had training areas, firing ranges, the whole nine yards, warehouses worth of 'stuff'.

 

However, how he usually works is that he DOES 'loot the corpses' -- picking up guns and especially cash. You're a dark hero working outside the law; when you bust a drug lab that's got 75 grand laying around, are YOU gonna leave it for the cops? Hell, no, you're going to grab it, set your charges, make sure everyone innocent is clear, and detonate the lab as you walk into the camera, guns in their holsters and rucksack in your hand, trenchcoat blowing dramatically.

 

I've required in the past that some characters of the 'Punisher' style purchase points in wealth, to represent the sheer amount of $$$ passing through their hands, getting spent on guns, bullets, grenades, rocket launchers, and other highly expendible (but highly useful!!) toys. How I did it, though, was put the Disad 'Taken From Criminal Enterprises (-1)' on it. This won't get you airplanes, nice houses, so on and so forth; this is cash that's going to be hard to conceal the source of. On the other hand, since you're the sort who's buying black market things anyhow, who really cares??

 

I've also, in other games, made it a +2 advantage -- because the cash you were able to acquire by 'nonlegal methods' could be poured right back into your 'war chest', and your levels in Wealth indicated the size of the 'Equipment Allowance' you were able to use. It's difficult to explain in a small space, but here is the page where it gets explained. If you've a head for Champions in the first place, it shouldn't be too terribly difficult to figure out.

 

Man, that game had potential...

[zornwil]

Re: Economy????

 

Thanks everyone! You've answered my questions more than adequately!

 

I'll tell him how it is and he can play with us or play with himself. I think his desire for equipment comes from years of playing D&D... he always enjoyed finding loot more than completing the quest. Maybe a guy who only adventures for the loot doesn't have the mentality to play a HERO.

Very generally speaking, the game is not as geared towards "get loot" as AD&D/d20, as XP awards are not built on it, in superhero games, as you've seen in this thread, "stuff," if it's useful, is the kind of thing you pay for with points, not just pick up as you adventure, per se (though as people mentioned, you can simulate this pretty well with a VPP).

 

Another option you could consider, but we're getting rather nuanced now, is Resource Points as explained in Dark Champions, but that really probably won't work as well if you mix it with superhero play, it's better if all the characters are agent/Punisher-like.

 

All that said, in summary, yes, if the point of the game for him is to expand his power by gaining stuff as he adventures, that doesn't mesh well with the typical support given in HERO/Champions for superhero play (I distinguish the two because if you use the Champions source books you get more detailed and superhero-specific input than from the core book, and that influence will point you further away from "adventure to gain stuf" mentality), and (to me) seems like it will definitely not mesh well with the other players' superhero-type play. If he's just worried about "being screwed," assure him that he won't be if he pays for stuff up front like the other PCs, since he'll have access to gadgets galore if he just pays for them.

 

And you don't have to go a VPP route, there are other options, but I'll leave that until/unless you come back wanting more detail on how you might build a Punisher-type character.

[zornwil]

Re: Economy????

 

Another thing to note' date=' even if you don't want to fuss with a VPP, is that Multipowers are pretty cheap ways to get lots of powers ... a quick drop of 2 or 3 points can often get a full slot.[/quote']

Well, that's kind where I was going with my last comment just above. I would just add to this if you use a MultiPower with slots that have Variable Advantage and Variable SFX Advantages on them you can do a lot to have a toolkit of gear.

[gojira]

Re: Economy????

 

I want to also add to not overlook other types of characters besides Punisher.

 

Reed Richards is a guy who often has neat stuff. He's an Inventor and Gadgeteer though, not a Looter. Instead of having a big warehouse, he just comes up with new things as he needs them.

 

Just tossin' ideas out if some other style of play might appeal to your player.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Economy????

 

We're planning a super hero campaign. Most of the players want a character with super powers but the friend in question prefers characters like the Punisher or Batman (no powers' date=' uses gadgets, weapons and intelligence to defeat enemies). He won't want to play if he can only get new weapons/gadgets by spending character points. Are there alternate rules or does that throw the game balance out of whack if you can essentially find new powers on fallen opponents?[/quote']

 

Look at it this way. If this one character can acquire brand-new abilities without paying points, how is that fair to the other players, whose characters only gain new abilities by spending points?

 

 

 

Actually' date=' this is exactly how Frank Castle works. It helps that his main targets are street-level thugs/criminals -- the Mob, basically. He doesn't get freeze-rays or flame throwers (usually). However, he's had training areas, firing ranges, the whole nine yards, warehouses worth of 'stuff'.[/quote']

 

It bears noting that Frank has fought higher tech opponents, and yet their gear (Jack O'Lantern's flying disc and special weaponry) never ends up in his armory. This seems to imply Frank's VPP doesn't permit the inclusion of exotic items - he's limited to real world tech (perhaps to items that have the "real weapon/real armor" limitation applied.

 

The VPP is the way to simulate such a character, in my opinion. Punisher has tons of stuff, but he can only carry so much, and he can only change it in his own armories, or when presented with an opportunity to take someone else's weaponry. Batman has what he can carry, but has a lot of choice about what that is, likely including some common gadgets he always has, and some gadgets represented through a VPP that he carries only when the need arises.

 

However' date=' how he usually works is that he DOES 'loot the corpses' -- picking up guns and especially cash. You're a dark hero working outside the law; when you bust a drug lab that's got 75 grand laying around, are YOU gonna leave it for the cops? Hell, no, you're going to grab it, set your charges, make sure everyone innocent is clear, and detonate the lab as you walk into the camera, guns in their holsters and rucksack in your hand, trenchcoat blowing dramatically.[/quote']

 

Two notes. First, he doesn't live an opulent lifestyle. Looting the bad guys is simply SFX for how he affords all those weapons. Second, he's a loner by design. In a game, you want to think carefully about whether he will fit in with the other characters. If they're law-abiding Supers, the Punisher isn't far off another villain who needs to be taken in, not a teammate.

[pinecone]

Re: Economy????

 

We're planning a super hero campaign. Most of the players want a character with super powers but the friend in question prefers characters like the Punisher or Batman (no powers' date=' uses gadgets, weapons and intelligence to defeat enemies). He won't want to play if he can only get new weapons/gadgets by spending character points. Are there alternate rules or does that throw the game balance out of whack if you can essentially find new powers on fallen opponents?[/quote']

 

Yeah you can use a VPP: Gadget pool, basicly you buy a "pool" of points and change it as you need, so if you steal the Black harliquins acid sprayer, the cost is payed for with the pool. If later you swap out you are reconfiguring the pool.

 

Though you can build a good bat clone with out a VPP just use a Multi-power to build a utility belt.....

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Economy????

 

A lot of people have mentioned multipowers but you may not be very familiar with the system yet to understand how cost effective they can be. I made a quick writeup of Batman and here's his utility belt:

 

27 Utility Belt: Multipower, 40-point reserve, (40 Active Points); all slots OIF (-1/2)

3u 1) Grappling Hook: Swinging 40" (40 Active Points) 4

1u 2) Zip line: Flight 20" (40 Active Points); Only up to 20" and only towards another object, wall, or cieling (-2) 4

3u 3) Smoke grenade: Darkness to Sight Group 4" radius (40 Active Points) 4

1u 4) Gas Mask: Life Support (Self-Contained Breathing) (10 Active Points) 0

1u 5) Infrared Goggles: Infrared Perception (Sight Group), +5 to PER Roll, Discriminatory, Analyze, Telescopic: +1 (21 Active Points)

 

 

"All slot OIF" means that while it may be easy to snag one of his gadgets away while he's using it, the rest of the gadgets will still be available. The only way to take it all away is to completely remove the belt, a task I definitely wouldn't want to accomplish while Batman is concious!

 

As you can see, the main cost of the belt is the multipower pool itself. After that, the gadgets are fairly cheap. Infrared goggles and gas mask for 1 character point each. That's a pretty nice deal. With this flexibility, he can have a huge pool of gadgets in no time. He can also use a multipower for his weapons if he so desires. That way he could bring along his sniper rifle on one trip, his fully automatic pistol on another, and his grenade launcher the next time.

 

I hope that helps!