JmOz Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Roughly speaking, and I realise that levels = Bad (I agree with this more than I can express BTW), how many points equate to a D&D level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels Well, this is the way Killer Shrike charts it out: http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/Conversion3eStep1.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels I'd be surprised if things worked out so smoothly and with much balance, if one were to convert different classes of different levels from ADnD to HERO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels I'd be surprised if things worked out so smoothly and with much balance' date=' if one were to convert different classes of different levels from ADnD to HERO.[/quote'] I have a chart for that too....ADD 2e to HERO System Levels To Points Conversion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels I would say that roughly every 10Xp in HERO equates to about a 1 level gain in D&D Reasoning? Because a 250pt Fantasy Hero character will probably be on par with a 10th level D&D Character. A 350pt character about equates to a 20th level D&D character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels I would say that roughly every 10Xp in HERO equates to about a 1 level gain in D&D Reasoning? Because a 250pt Fantasy Hero character will probably be on par with a 10th level D&D Character. A 350pt character about equates to a 20th level D&D character. Actually, I started at 13.33 per level, using encounter level logic as the basis. First I tried to round that to alternating 10 and 15 xp points per level to keep the numbers clean but ran into two problems; one different classes have hits at different levels, and two I ran into some mild point overages when converting characters. So I rounded up instead to an even 15 points per level and that worked much more smoothly. Some "levels" or 15 point increments leave a little on the table, and other "levels" or 15 point increments need a few more points, but taken together it usually works out. As an aside, anyone that has access to the Ptolus book can compare some of the published 3e characters to the HERO conversions Ive done on them here using the materials on my site: PtolusHERO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels Actually' date=' I started at 13.33 per level, using encounter level logic as the basis. First I tried to round that to alternating 10 and 15 xp points per level to keep the numbers clean but ran into two problems; one different classes have hits at different levels, and two I ran into some mild point overages when converting characters. So I rounded up instead to an even 15 points per level and that worked much more smoothly.[/quote'] I can see that. Considering that most Fantasy Hero groups start out with around 150pt characters, if the player knows how to construct a character properly, they should be about as competant as a 5th level D&D character. Accounting for a 15pt gain "per level", that would make a 10th level equivalent a 225pt character and a 20th level equivalent a 375pt character. That works fairly well! Using that scale, a 1st level character would be around 75pts. 15pts "per level" and a 5th level character will come out to around 150pts. That works great! You can start the characters out as 0 base points with 75pts in Disadvantages for a 1st level character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamerz123 Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels Hmm... Well, my 2 cents. I'm not too crazy about stating that every AD&D level advancement is equivalent (Ie. linear.) At certain levels, Magic spells become significantly more powerful, fighters gain extra attacks per round, etc.... A 5th level Magic User (Almost every player takes Fireball or Lightning Bolt as their first 3rd level magic spell...) packs a considerably more powerful punch than a 4th level Magic User. A 4th level Magic User, on the other hand, is only slightly more powerful than a 3rd level MU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels Hmm... Well, my 2 cents. I'm not too crazy about stating that every AD&D level advancement is equivalent (Ie. linear.) At certain levels, Magic spells become significantly more powerful, fighters gain extra attacks per round, etc.... A 5th level Magic User (Almost every player takes Fireball or Lightning Bolt as their first 3rd level magic spell...) packs a considerably more powerful punch than a 4th level Magic User. A 4th level Magic User, on the other hand, is only slightly more powerful than a 3rd level MU. My Vancian Magic conversions account for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels I would say that roughly every 10Xp in HERO equates to about a 1 level gain in D&D Reasoning? Because a 250pt Fantasy Hero character will probably be on par with a 10th level D&D Character. A 350pt character about equates to a 20th level D&D character. I've traditionally used 15 points per level as a rough guide for conversion, but it depends on style. I use a lot of skills and the characters I've converted have had a goodly amount of background skills and perks. It could go both ways, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamerz123 Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels My Vancian Magic conversions account for that. Interesting... I'll have to take a closer look when I get the chance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels Just remember that the conversion will always be rough, because one system's crunch bits don't translate well to another's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eosin Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels Here are my thoughts: 25 + 25 = 1st level (town guards, mercs, orcs, ect...) 50 + 50 = 4th level (sheriffs, new knights, bandit leaders) 75 + 75 = 7th level (skilled warriors, experienced knights, various lieutenants in organizations) 100 + 100 = 10th level (Knight-Captains, Commanders, most mid-tier organization heads [thieves guild, slavers ring, assassains] and locally famous warriors - many published Hero characters) Beyond the 200 point mark, the actual points become less relevant and the way those points are spent take the fore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels Just remember that the conversion will always be rough' date=' because one system's crunch bits don't translate well to another's.[/quote'] This is really the core problem. A fighter in HERO just doesn't translate all that well into d20. Sure, you can equate the math (OCV, Overall Combat Levels, DCV, Armor, whatever) but it doesn't parse properly. d20 is a linear system and the foundation for it uses a linear ramp -- everyone & everything is going the same way, up. Improved AC, +X to hit, +Y to damage, and so on. HERO, by contrast, is an open system. Yes, while the "low level" (or 50 point) Fighters will likely all look the same other than weapon choice, by around 200 points you're going to have a pretty wide variance depending on design & style. And those 200 points can be sunk into all kinds of different places. They won't hit with the same accuracy, they may have AOE abilities for defense, one could have sunk all his points into being able to instantly cover his friends (Teleportation, must cross intervening space, only to provide cover to an endangered ally). I've seen my 300 point build 10th level d20 characters, and I had two problems. It was a very messy conversion because I wasn't familiar enough with the system (I'm better now, thanks!) and two, 300 points was honestly too many. But what I learned from that experiment is that you're ball parking at best. Cleverly spent points will go much further than improperly spent points. However, this is a sticky topic. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels My (vast) personal experience, many campaigns across the span of more than a decade, and many characters converted, created, conceived, and played refute the idea that high point "fighters" are not competitive. Here's just a few; they are a mere fraction of such characters I have direct knowledge of, but they're what happens to be from recent years and thus are on my current website: Lord Durant Khatru Kargas the Bold Igor Urnst Saemund Magnussun Brother Ernault Taared Arganat The Hooded Man Ergal Shalia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels Er... if you're saying that I'm saying that fighters aren't competitive, either I wrote it wrong or you read it wrong. Not to pick nits, just noting that your tone directly implies derision, and I'm a little confused as to where it came from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels My (vast) personal experience, many campaigns across the span of more than a decade, and many characters converted, created, conceived, and played refute the idea that high point "fighters" are not competitive. Here's just a few; they are a mere fraction of such characters I have direct knowledge of, but they're what happens to be from recent years and thus are on my current website: Lord Durant Khatru Kargas the Bold Igor Urnst Saemund Magnussun Brother Ernault Taared Arganat The Hooded Man Ergal Shalia I like the fact that the few of these I've had a chance to examine in detail so far appear extremely combat effective (even against some supers!) without the use of extraordinary DEX or Lightning Reflexes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels Er... if you're saying that I'm saying that fighters aren't competitive' date=' either I wrote it wrong or you read it wrong. Not to pick nits, just noting that your tone directly implies derision, and I'm a little confused as to where it came from.[/quote'] Sorry, I was responding to "A fighter in HERO just doesn't translate all that well into d20.". No derision intended, I just don't agree with the general idea that there is some kind of insurmountable gulf between the two paradigms. There are differences sure, but parallels as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels I like the fact that the few of these I've had a chance to examine in detail so far appear extremely combat effective (even against some supers!) without the use of extraordinary DEX or Lightning Reflexes. Thanks! Im a big fan of keeping SPD and DEX in check. You shouldnt need a SPD 8 and a DEX of 35 to be moderately competitive. Honestly, I think SPD and DEX escalation causes a lot of subtle problems in all genres (some more so than others), and is also a direct contributor to the idea that HERO combats take forever to resolve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels Sorry' date=' I was responding to "A fighter in HERO just doesn't translate all that well into d20.". No derision intended, I just don't agree with the general idea that there is some kind of insurmountable gulf between the two paradigms. There are differences sure, but parallels as well.[/quote'] Fair enough -- I think we just had a communications gap. By "doesn't translate well" I did not mean "is not effective." I meant "there are way more ways to build a Fighter in HERO than there are in d20." And there's a bunch by 7th, 8th level to build a Fighter. I simply think that in HERO you can do... just so much more that there isn't an apples to apples comparison. This explains the problemo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels Fair enough -- I think we just had a communications gap. By "doesn't translate well" I did not mean "is not effective." I meant "there are way more ways to build a Fighter in HERO than there are in d20." And there's a bunch by 7th, 8th level to build a Fighter. I simply think that in HERO you can do... just so much more that there isn't an apples to apples comparison. This explains the problemo. Ah; well I would certainly agree with that. Kind of the point of using the HERO System for Fantasy vs D&D is to get away from class & level straight jackets after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels Oh, and very nice write ups, BTW (now that the dust has settled and I know what's going on). Those are rock solid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels Oh' date=' and very nice write ups, BTW (now that the dust has settled and I know what's going on). Those are rock solid.[/quote'] "I'd like to thank the Academy, my agent, and all the little people that make me so great...." uh.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels I wish I knew the sources of half the quotes in my head. "I'd like to thank my parents, my agent, and G-d. In that order." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 Re: Lets talk about the untalkable: Levels "I'd like to thank Satan, for making the selling of my soul for fame and fortune SO easy... what? Like you all wern't thinking it anyway." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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