How do you hide a saved half?

[Manic Typist]

What skill or ability do you think is necessary for a character to save a half phase without anyone else knowing it (unless, of course, they happen to pass a Perception roll with negative modifiers)?

 

We've all seen it. Someone who looks calm and secure suddenly snapping into action, and even already prepared for what someone thought would be a suprise attack. Some of it can be put down to timing ("I wait until Phase 9, because I suspect that I have a higher DEX and Speed, so I could act twice before they can really respond)... but sometimes I feel it's more like they are saving a half without anyone knowing it.

 

Thoughts?

[1EyedJack]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

Acting or Stealth depending on the situation

[RDU Neil]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

Acting or Stealth depending on the situation

 

These two, plus more. I think it is very "role playing situational." A character who knows he is being stalked and wants to be prepared without appearing... that could be acting... or reverse Shadowing maybe.

 

With a character in combat who wants to, say, move into position on another opponent without LOOKING like he is doing that... Stealth or even Acrobatics with modifiers.

 

In some ways, if you want this kind of "tactical role playing" in combat... vs. "tactical ROLL play" (Example: Where the player uses their god's eye view to do things like "I disengage and half move to strike the stunned guy" even though in actual combat there is no way the character would know "that guy is stunned, it is more efficient to take him out.")... I would be flexible and support whatever works best for that character. Reward the player for such creative, in-character, type maneuvers by choosing whatever skill their character is good at that is applicable.

 

Basically, IMO I would not expect to have this ruled as a "hard set of skills/powers building this effect" and more of a "flexible maneuver" that can play out in a number of ways based on the role playing situation.

 

Does that make sense? YMMV of course.

[Manic Typist]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

Excellent points.

 

My last GM ruled that you needed Defense Manuever to be able to do it, and it just never made sense to me. First, none of the Defense Manuever levels are described in such a way as to indicate that they did that. Second, it limited it to very narrow character types (only those who would reasonably have Defense Manuever).

 

So, I can see Stealth, Acting, Shadowing, and even Sleight of Hand being useful, depending on the situation. Any more ideas?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

Considering that the Speed Chart is entirely a game mechanic concept, and doesn't exist within the confines of the game world, I wouldn't require any kind of roll or ability for this. If you want it to be obvious that you're "ready" or "waiting" or whatever, then it's obvious. If you don't want it to be obvious, it isn't.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

First, just don't declare it's a held action.

 

Second, check out the rules for Cover. You may need to fudge it slightly (or also include a Fast Draw roll, etc.) but that's there as well.

[RDU Neil]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

Considering that the Speed Chart is entirely a game mechanic concept' date=' and doesn't exist within the confines of the game world, I wouldn't require any kind of roll or ability for this. If you want it to be obvious that you're "ready" or "waiting" or whatever, then it's obvious. If you don't want it to be obvious, it isn't. [/quote']

 

This really is a question of intent. The particular role playing action... or the specific mechanic is not as important as "What intent is behind the player declaring that?"

 

If a player is saying something like "I don't want Dr. Fist to know that I see him coming," then the first question is NOT... "Ok, what mechanic do you use?" The question should be, "What is your intent? What do you hope to accomplish by fooling Dr. Fist?"

 

Understanding intent is critical for GM interpretation. Most miscommunication and bad feelings can be traced back to assumptions made by one party about what the other player expected. In the example above the GM might say, "Ok... Dr. Fist thinks you are unaware and really winds up to put everything into one shot to take you down. His levels will be put into extra damage rather than OCV."

 

Now, the GM is trying to give a benefit, but maybe the player really wanted a chance to "I do a back kick, surprising him as he winds up." So what the player realling "intended" was to set up his own surprise attack... not to be able to more easily avoid the attack.

 

Intent is crucial... because the player clearly wants something (likely some kind of benefit to his character) for the declared action... or he wouldn't have stated it. Ruling as a GM and deciding how to apply mechanics to resolve the situation is dependent on clearly understanding the intent of the player described action in the first place.

 

In online play I require "Descripting statments" followed by "Intent statements" so that the player describes in color language what they do... while the intent explains their desired outcome and often which mechanic they think would work.

 

It works in FtF play as well... any time a player describes an action but you aren't sure exactly WHY the stated that... or WHAT they hope to accomplish... just ask. "What is your intent in doing that?" and things click along much better.

[1EyedJack]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

This really is a question of intent. The particular role playing action... or the specific mechanic is not as important as "What intent is behind the player declaring that?"

 

If a player is saying something like "I don't want Dr. Fist to know that I see him coming," then the first question is NOT... "Ok, what mechanic do you use?" The question should be, "What is your intent? What do you hope to accomplish by fooling Dr. Fist?"

 

Understanding intent is critical for GM interpretation. Most miscommunication and bad feelings can be traced back to assumptions made by one party about what the other player expected. In the example above the GM might say, "Ok... Dr. Fist thinks you are unaware and really winds up to put everything into one shot to take you down. His levels will be put into extra damage rather than OCV."

 

Now, the GM is trying to give a benefit, but maybe the player really wanted a chance to "I do a back kick, surprising him as he winds up." So what the player realling "intended" was to set up his own surprise attack... not to be able to more easily avoid the attack.

 

Intent is crucial... because the player clearly wants something (likely some kind of benefit to his character) for the declared action... or he wouldn't have stated it. Ruling as a GM and deciding how to apply mechanics to resolve the situation is dependent on clearly understanding the intent of the player described action in the first place.

 

In online play I require "Descripting statments" followed by "Intent statements" so that the player describes in color language what they do... while the intent explains their desired outcome and often which mechanic they think would work.

 

It works in FtF play as well... any time a player describes an action but you aren't sure exactly WHY the stated that... or WHAT they hope to accomplish... just ask. "What is your intent in doing that?" and things click along much better.

 

or in this case a buracracy roll

[gojira]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

This makes me want to define a Power Skill for fighting. Power Skill is for doing tricks with your power, and "pretending" to be unready to gain an advantage sounds like a trick to me.

 

Acting is ok, but I see little in common with being in a Shakespear play and fighting. Stealth works a little better for me, but still seems a bit off.

 

If you are following the guidelines in Ultimate Martial Artist then you have a KS for your particular martial art already. I'd allow that to substitue for the Power Skill roll, as long as the KS is defined as "knowledge from doing martial arts" and not "book learnin'."

 

I'd probably allow relavent 3, 5 and 10 point combat skill levels to modify the roll, but not skill levels, regardless of the fact that it is a KS being rolled here. You're in combat, not in a library.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

Why not use Acting (it's usually an 'Everyman Skill' anyway) to pull it off and a PER roll with modifiers to see through it? Analyse Style could also be used.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

Sleight of Hand might also fit. Misdirection is part acting, part prestidigitation.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

We've defined it as Invisible Power Effects (+1/4 Normal Sight, only to surprise). It adds +2 OCV to the attack if the person is in-combat and as surprised if out-of-combat.

 

This is extremely useful is circumstances like winding up for a Haymaker.

[Manic Typist]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

Oh, even Concealment if the player is hiding in plain sight amongst a group of people, waiting to spring out at someone... you know, the classic assassin trick. Not that I encourage such things... ok, well, in a Dark Champions game, I might!

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

There is no such thing as a half phase action in the game world. Hiding one is a mechanical conceit, and meta-gaming, to my mind.

 

I'm beginning to think that held actions are a bad idea anyway.

[Edsel]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

Technically in combat characters are not going to suddenly stop and say "I'm holding half of my action" but as a game mechanic it seems to be a necessary concession to playability. Depending on how you look at it, it might not be obvious that anyone is holding an action, in which case there would be no need to use a skill to hide a held action, the burden would be on the other characters to realize that one had held a half, or whole action.

 

I suppose that the GM could always keep track of his NPCs secretly leaving the players to try and figure out who has and hadn't moved. In this case the player might be allowed a PER or INT roll to determine if a NPC seems to be holding or not. However in order to referee the game properly the players are still going to have to inform the GM if their player characters are holding. In this case the GM would have to try and logically play the NPCs as if they lacked the knowledge of who is and isn't holding. The NPCs would be allowed a PER or INT roll to determine whether or not they can determine if a particular character is holding.

 

All of that would add to the complexity of the game and I doubt that anyone would want to play that way. I think the system as it is, with holding declarations, is probably for the best. Using any of the numerous skills to hide the fact you are holding from other characters seems reasonable. I certainly don't see any reason to do away with the ability to hold actions. To me it does not imbalance the game since players and NPCs alike are allowed to do it. Besides having this option adds to the tactical play of the game.

[Manic Typist]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

I don't see how hiding a held action is a meta-game concept or a mechanical conceit.

 

To me, a held action is (normally) pretty obvious. You are in alert stance, with your muscles slightly tensed, looking around. Basically, you are ready to ACT. But you aren't acting yet. You've done all the prep, and everyone knows it. Essentially.

 

Now, if I don't want people to know I am ready to snap into action, I want to hide it from them. So, I need to move my body into position, get my muscles ready, etc, all while appearing completely calm and like nothing is different.

 

If I can't hold an action, there's no way for me to suddenly interrupt someone else (say I'm being escorted by some goons who think they have me as their prisoner. One turns to open a door, and I spring into action. If I can't hold, I'm screwed if it happens on Segment 7 instead of 8. Or instead, even if you start it on 12, the guy who was ready for it typically gets a lot more done quickly, i.e. a held action plus his next phase, while others might actually lose a phase).

[Edsel]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

I don't see how hiding a held action is a meta-game concept or a mechanical conceit.

Which is why I said, "it depends on how you look at it." Some holds are going to be obvious. If the character is simply standing there looking around in an alert manner then it is quite obvious.

However what about the character who has bought their running up 3". Their half move is now 5" and if they move that far while they are looking around will it really be obvious to everyone that they have a half held action, or will they look like a guy who made a full combat move while being observant?

Since combat starts on Phase 12 how do you know that your opponent is someone with a higher than average speed, when some characters start acting on Phase 3 how do they know that one of the other characters is Speed 6 and held in phase 2? Wouldn't he look like any other character waiting to act in an upcoming phase?

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

Once combat has been joined, it is a single sequence of events with its own flow and rhythm. You don't have anything like the control over what you are going to do next that the game gives you. Your next move is dictated by the actions of your opponent and his reactions to your actions.

 

Only when there is a pause is there the opportunity to hold actions - and you'll probably both be doing it if that happens anyway.

 

If it bothers you don't announce when you are holding an action or a half action: mark it in some way (put a playing card face down - if it is a red picture card you are holding a full action, red number a half action and black not holding) but don't announce it to the throng. Hand a note tot eh GM, if you like - best hand one to him every phase even if it is blank so that noone knows what you are up to

 

If you want to try an unexpected stab at someone that is more like a surprise manouvre worth a few points of OCV on an acting roll, or minor success on a PRE attack.

[Manic Typist]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

Ah, fair enough. For the most part, I narrate it in terms of how committed they appear to be. Perhaps not the best way, but I don't think someone with extra running should have an easier time of hiding a saved half than someone else. An issue I hadn't considered, but one that hasn't come up yet. I shall think on it. Thank you.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

Which is why I said, "it depends on how you look at it." Some holds are going to be obvious. If the character is simply standing there looking around in an alert manner then it is quite obvious.

However what about the character who has bought their running up 3". Their half move is now 5" and if they move that far while they are looking around will it really be obvious to everyone that they have a half held action, or will they look like a guy who made a full combat move while being observant?

Since combat starts on Phase 12 how do you know that your opponent is someone with a higher than average speed, when some characters start acting on Phase 3 how do they know that one of the other characters is Speed 6 and held in phase 2? Wouldn't he look like any other character waiting to act in an upcoming phase?

 

As a GM I do not announce when my villains are holding an action or a half action and if my players announce that they are doing so it does not consciously change my tactics because I know they have a potential mechanical advantage. I expect the same courtesy as a player.

 

A held action still requires a DEX off if you are trying to ebat an opponent to the punch so it is not a certainty anyway.

 

Be more organic about combat. Tactics are important and almost everyone plays to max the rules, but the feel of it is far more important and real - them mechanics really should be as invisible as possible and I just feel that this highlights, rather than hides the underlying mechanics

 

.

[Manic Typist]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

Once combat has been joined, it is a single sequence of events with its own flow and rhythm. You don't have anything like the control over what you are going to do next that the game gives you. Your next move is dictated by the actions of your opponent and his reactions to your actions.

 

Only when there is a pause is there the opportunity to hold actions - and you'll probably both be doing it if that happens anyway.

 

If it bothers you don't announce when you are holding an action or a half action: mark it in some way (put a playing card face down - if it is a red picture card you are holding a full action, red number a half action and black not holding) but don't announce it to the throng. Hand a note tot eh GM, if you like - best hand one to him every phase even if it is blank so that noone knows what you are up to

 

If you want to try an unexpected stab at someone that is more like a surprise manouvre worth a few points of OCV on an acting roll, or minor success on a PRE attack.

 

Of course, but there are different rhythms and beats within the same combat. Some might be pausing while others acting, etc.

 

It doesn't bug me, I was just wondering what skills you would think are necessary to model the ability to convince others that I am NOT a tightly coiled spring of death waiting to... spring.

 

However, your advice is quite good for player on player conflict, certainly.

 

Do you just not like breaking the narrative flow, is that it?

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

Of course, but there are different rhythms and beats within the same combat. Some might be pausing while others acting, etc.

 

It doesn't bug me, I was just wondering what skills you would think are necessary to model the ability to convince others that I am NOT a tightly coiled spring of death waiting to... spring.

 

However, your advice is quite good for player on player conflict, certainly.

 

Do you just not like breaking the narrative flow, is that it?

 

That is precisely it. Playing a rule-combat can be fun and rewarding but for most role playing I prefer that the participants just state what they are up to, with the actual rules and rolls done as quietly as possible.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

I don't see this as something obvious to begin with. I don't believe that each character tenses when their DEX in their phase arrives - they either act or they do not. Between phases, characters aren't standing stock-still - they are dodging, weaving, looking around, defending themse;lves, etc. That's no different if they have a half phase or full phase held in reserve.

[Manic Typist]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

Well, simply put, to me when a character is saving a half (so that they might act on a different segment than they normally would) is normally obvious.

 

The rest of the time, your "between segment time" is narrated as what you have previously stated that you were doing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you hide a saved half?

 

Well, simply put, to me when a character is saving a half (so that they might act on a different segment than they normally would) is normally obvious.

 

The rest of the time, your "between segment time" is narrated as what you have previously stated that you were doing.

 

Cool. One of the most important thing in gaming, to my mind, is consistency. If that is how you always play it, then everyone knows where they stand, and to hide a half, I'd go with ANY skill the character could persuade me was relevant (including, but not limited to acting, oratory, ventriloquism, acrobatics, breakfall and sleight of hand) or something distratcing including but not limited to successful presence attacks.