[What If?] Islam replaces Christianity

[Mark Rand]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

Or another alternative if Islam took over in late 18th/early 19th century. The Old World is Muslim, the New World is Christian. The two sides of the Atlantic could splinter their relations with each other. Perhaps to the point where they have almost nothing to do with each other (largely isolationist). Though in a modern technology setting this might be impossible.

 

Of course if the sides are at extreme odds at want to bring down the other, it could go as a battle for expansion for new converts into their cause. Which result in a speedier expansion period as Islam tries to convert Africa, and Christianity speeds through the American West. Also if the USA had already freed from Britain, they would definitely encourage Mexico, South America, etc. to free from their parent nations, to protect themselves from Islam. And as Islam were to have swept through an 18th century Europe, the turmoil would weaken the connection between the 2 worlds making it more of a motivation to rebel.

 

Not really sure how the Far East could play in all that though (and Australia). Between the 2 they would be more susceptible to Islam geographically. Not an expert on how Islam developed throughout Central Asia. But the Far East could have their own religion to fall behind to protect themselves (version of Buddhism, as the favorite)

 

Good ideas here. Thank you.

[oroborous]

Re: [What If?] Islam replaces Christianity

 

If we go with the theories that either Christianity didn't expand into Europe or that Christians sought refuge in the New World as Islam took hold, I am left to wonder whether there would have been a Renaissance or Age of Enlightenment. Knowledge that went against the status quo would have been discredited or quashed.

 

Imagine Galileo stating his astronomical theories and, instead of being chastised by the Pope and excommunicated, Grand Imam Hussein and his Mullahs branded him a heretic and had him executed. Who else would be bold enough to come forward and face death when their ideas went against the establishment? This would lead to a learned underground that passed banned scholarly ideas through an information black market. Anyone who had the means would have found escape in the United Kingdom. I envision the British Isles as being geographically separated and therefore less likely to be conquered. Eventually these scholars might make their way across the sea.

 

That leads to the theory of exodus in the wake of a wave of Islamic warriors. If Christians, Jews and other Pagan religions migrated to North America, it is likely that renaissance and enlightenment would have taken place there instead. That being the case, it would not spread to Europe with the same fervor. This “brain drain” would make North America and its associates home to all of the innovations that happened in Europe IRL, and they would eventually trickle into European countries as they became more secular.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: [What If?] Islam replaces Christianity

 

Ironically enough, Islam wasn't as close-minded back in those days. And there wouldn't be a need for a Renaissance in Europe if the Muslims had conquered it...most of the knowledge that was "rediscovered" by Europe had been sitting in Islamic libraries for centuries.

 

There's a lot of Arabic scattered here and there in modern science. The name "chemistry" has Arabic roots, and most of the named stars have Arabic names.

[Vondy]

Re: [What If?] Islam replaces Christianity

 

dI am left to wonder whether there would have been a Renaissance or Age of Enlightenment. Knowledge that went against the status quo would have been discredited or quashed...

 

 

On the other hand...

 

Without the Crusades the Golden Age of Islam might not have come to the abrupt end it did. This could have had profound results earlier as it began in the 7th century and started to bear fruit between the 9th and 11th centuries, ending in the 12th century. It wouldn't have been the Enlightenment as the West understands it today - it would have had a different character entirely - but it would have produced an advanced technological civilization, as well as one with broader social norms than feudatory, or even renaissance and reformation, Europe had (IMO). Indeed, between the 11th and 12th centuries there was a flourishing of pluralistic philosophy - with a notion of a multi-cultural utopia in which all three monotheistic faiths were considered "Islamic" - but it was not to be. Their defeat in the Crusades led to a cultural downward spiral that amounted to Civilization Interrupted. They were eclipsed militarily, economically, scientifically, and culturally - and this in turn led to regression and stagnation.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

As I understand it the novel The Years of Salt and Rice deals with that situation. I have not read the novel but I understand that it supposes that the black death (plague) turns out to give the Islamic nations an easier time of it while in the west the plague kills more like 90% of the population. The Islamic nations then expand and conquer the west. That's about all I know about it. It might be a good source for ideas though.

 

As an aside, I liked the idea, and really wanted to like that book but just couldn't do it. Struggled through part of it, and put it down unfinished. Ugh. Different strokes and all that, but I for one would not recommend it.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

I suspect though that there will be some Muslims living in the United States anyway. Of course' date=' there would be many more different religions and each good-sized city would have at least one place that supplies stuff for witchcraft and pagan religions.[/quote']

 

Considering the low regard Muslims have for anything even remotely like idolatry or polytheism, I have a hard time taking the last one seriously (no offense). Go and read about how the Muslims acted when they went into India, which was a 'pagan' or rather polytheistic society at leastr as advanced and organized as their own.

 

For some reason, in a Muslim US, I get the idea of the Plains Indian tribes converting to Islam but staying nomadic. Islam's usually been friendlier to nomadism than either Christianity or Judaism, or so I recall.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

Considering the low regard Muslims have for anything even remotely like idolatry or polytheism, I have a hard time taking the last one seriously (no offense). Go and read about how the Muslims acted when they went into India, which was a 'pagan' or rather polytheistic society at leastr as advanced and organized as their own.

 

For some reason, in a Muslim US, I get the idea of the Plains Indian tribes converting to Islam but staying nomadic. Islam's usually been friendlier to nomadism than either Christianity or Judaism, or so I recall.

 

He was talking about a United States that was not predominately Muslim, but had a few anyway...not a US where the Muslims called the shots. In that situation, the American Muslims might not like the voodoo stores, but they wouldn't have a whole lot of say in the matter.

[Vestnik]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

Something else to consider is the Russians. They were communists - Godless Heathen Commies - and while that wasn't universal (many maintained beliefs in private) they might not have been decimated the way Europe and the Americas would have been. They might well have come to terms with the Japanese in order to move on Europe, and they could have done it far faster that the Muslims could.

 

Just to split hairs, there was open religious worship in the Soviet Union (the Orthodox Church, for instance, being rehabilitated during WW2), although it was highly discouraged (and made fun of by schools, propaganda, etc.) and open believers, since they couldn't join the Communist Party, had extremely curtailed room for career growth. So if you were religious but still wanted a good career (which meant joining the Party), you had to hide it. Ordinary people, no.

[Markdoc]

Re: [What If?] Islam replaces Christianity

 

On the other hand...

 

Without the Crusades the Golden Age of Islam might not have come to the abrupt end it did. This could have had profound results earlier as it began in the 7th century and started to bear fruit between the 9th and 11th centuries, ending in the 12th century.

 

I've snipped the rest because I basically agree with it, but I think you've picked the wrong villains. The Crusaders, bloodthirsty though they might have been, had basically been reduced to the status of minor annoyance before Islam reached its full flowering (in fact many historians have argued that by stimulating the alliance of previously opposed Islamic rulers, they facilitated it). It was the Mongols (in the 13th century) who decapitated the leading Islamic state and by destroying both the Caliphate and Baghdad (and then occupying what had been Islam's Eastern Marches - and wealthiest region) dropped the curtain pretty abruptly on Islam's glory days.

 

While that was going on, the Crusaders were huddling in their few remaining coastal enclaves and trying not to offend the Mamluks or the Mongols, both of whom walked armies through their territories without having to fight for passage. (well apart from Julian of Sidon, who foolishly decided to make a little raid and had his city and castles summarily demolished by Hulagu).

 

It's an idea that has intrigued me for years. The Caliphate was a secular institution (the Caliph was the "leader of the faithful", but he was not an imam or religious figure) and both relatively tolerant and relatively progressive. They kept a fairly heavy thumb on Imams with political leanings. If the Caliphate had survived, would Islamic society have continued to develop along more western lines, with a powerful church (or churches) but essentially secular government? We'll never know, of course, but it seems a suspicious coincidence to me that their progress suddenly came to an end at that point, for quite a long time - athough much of the Islamic world continued to be wealthy.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vestnik]

Re: [What If?] Islam replaces Christianity

 

Something I haven't seen considered here, unless I've missed it, is what the effect would have been if Prince Vladimir had chosen Islam instead of Orthodox Christianity as a faith for the Rus back in circa 1000 CE. That was a real possibility. Russia would have become Islamic.

[Vondy]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

Islam's usually been friendlier to nomadism than either Christianity or Judaism' date=' or so I recall.[/quote']

 

Which is why we still have bedouins - settled and otherwise - in Israel today.