[What If?] Islam replaces Christianity

[Mark Rand]

Hermit's poll on "pulling a Gath" gave me an idea for two threads. This is the more serious of the two.

 

Sometime in the past, Islam and not Christianity became the religion followed by most of the Western nations. Judaism, though, is still where it is.

 

Any ideas on how this would affect the CU?

[Basil]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

Hermit's poll on "pulling a Gath" gave me an idea for two threads. This is the more serious of the two.

 

Sometime in the past, Islam and not Christianity became the religion followed by most of the Western nations. Judaism, though, is still where it is.

 

Any ideas on how this would affect the CU?

 

Well, since that would require Islamic forces to conquer most or all of Europe (christianity being well estabished in Europe before Islam came to be), you're talking about a complete re-write of history. Major undertaking there.

 

You'd have to figure out how/why it happened, and then work out the ramifications from there. There would be a number of possible scenarios/timelines.

 

Sorry, without a better idea of what you want, I don't know how to begin.

 

EXplaining "pulling a Gath" would be a good start.

[Edsel]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

As I understand it the novel The Years of Salt and Rice deals with that situation. I have not read the novel but I understand that it supposes that the black death (plague) turns out to give the Islamic nations an easier time of it while in the west the plague kills more like 90% of the population. The Islamic nations then expand and conquer the west. That's about all I know about it. It might be a good source for ideas though.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

Well, since that would require Islamic forces to conquer most or all of Europe (christianity being well estabished in Europe before Islam came to be), you're talking about a complete re-write of history. Major undertaking there.

 

You'd have to figure out how/why it happened, and then work out the ramifications from there. There would be a number of possible scenarios/timelines.

 

Sorry, without a better idea of what you want, I don't know how to begin.

 

EXplaining "pulling a Gath" would be a good start.

 

Gath was a villan in the Marvel Universe with the ability to rewrite history. My first thought was that christianity never took off the way it did in the real world.

 

Probably there would never have been the Crusades or the Dark Ages. Science probably would be more advanced than it is now and clothes would be more modest than they are now.

 

It's too late at night for me to think beyond that.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

As I understand it the novel The Years of Salt and Rice deals with that situation. I have not read the novel but I understand that it supposes that the black death (plague) turns out to give the Islamic nations an easier time of it while in the west the plague kills more like 90% of the population. The Islamic nations then expand and conquer the west. That's about all I know about it. It might be a good source for ideas though.

 

I'll look for it at the library.

[gojira]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

My own opinion:

 

It doesn't change much. I think there's tension in the middle east with the west right now because they are neighbors. Countries, sects, people who live next to each other often get into squabbles. On a large scale, there's access to natural resources, and oil and water are a big issue.

 

The current Christian vs. Muslim is replaced by sectarian Muslim vs. sectarian Muslim. There will be many details of history that are different, but the general thrust is the same, as it's driven more by resources and techology, not religion.

[Certified]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

 

Probably there would never have been the Crusades or the Dark Ages. Science probably would be more advanced than it is now and clothes would be more modest than they are now.

 

It's too late at night for me to think beyond that.

 

I wont question the latter, but to avoid the Dark Ages I believe that has more to do with the fall of the Roman Empire. An interesting change would be what if they the Romans had used bronze pipes for there water. (and thusly saved from theorized dementia in their latter rulers)

 

Give me my Pagan Gods to know that three brothers each have their kingdoms while one rules over all. While no mortal no matter how pure must suffer for his sins before reaching Elysium and finding paradise. Even if only for a short while.

 

Ahem.. anywho ... my point being if Christianity never takes off we still have a dominate religion throughout Europe. Although my guess is that Christianity spread so well because the cult had been elevated to religion at almost the perfect time.As Rome fell and conditions across Europe began to suck (to use the scientific term) there had to be some appeal to a religion that although you suffer now in the afterlife it is paradise eternal.

[Springald Jack]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

The wonderful thing about alternate history is our understanding of hisorical causation is pretty weak. So you can do anything you want.

[Hermit]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

Hermit's poll on "pulling a Gath" gave me an idea for two threads. This is the more serious of the two.

 

Sometime in the past, Islam and not Christianity became the religion followed by most of the Western nations. Judaism, though, is still where it is.

 

Any ideas on how this would affect the CU?

Well, without Christianity, assuming it formed at all, Islam would certainly steam roll right over Europe. The Pope was the one man able to really unite all of Europe for Crusades and such and Christianity was the banner of that unity.

 

Judiasm is still where it is? As in Israel is an actual country? There would have to be one heck of a reformation for that to slide by, but perhaps one faction took the Jews as allies to help fight off the other, and rewarded them their homeland in exchange.

 

And, of course, superpowers in the right place and right time could make anything possible. Theocracies in the modern day would be more common than they are now, though no doubt, more secularized nations would still sprout up and possibly the 'Reformed more secular nations' would be at constant odds with the hard nosed old orthodox muslim nations.

[Vondy]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

 

Judiasm is still where it is? As in Israel is an actual country? There would have to be one heck of a reformation for that to slide by, but perhaps one faction took the Jews as allies to help fight off the other, and rewarded them their homeland in exchange.

 

Actually, a large part of the Muslim-Jewish divide in the region resulted from the fallout of WWI, and a number of conflicting and broken promises (to both sides) by the British and French following WWII. Failed imperial policy created a significant and sudden rise in competition and animosity between 1918 and 1948, which continues to be the status quo today. Its the frogs and soccer hooligans fault.

 

You also have to remember that Islamic attitudes in the post world war (and nationalist) era have been radically changed. The ottomans, while being brutal, were nonetheless fairly cosmopolitan in their approach to other ethnic groups and used a millet system giving each one a certain amount of autonomy within the empire (though rarely geographic semi-autonomy). The ottomans, in conjunction with the Morrocan kings, set a very different tone for the Islamic world.

 

Prior to WWI there were some pretty grounded discussions with the Ottoman's about turning the current location of modern Israel (and part of southern Lebanon) into what would amount to a semi-autonomous Jewish "beylick" within the empire. WWI, however, put a stopper on that idea - as did nationalism. The Jews prior to the world wars, while wanting a homeland, weren't as deeply committed to a completely independent state. Islamic nationalism also emerged from this era, but for different reasons, and is one of the principle causes of radical islamic thought in the modern day.

 

The reasons for the ottoman's moving towards the idea (after several meetings with the rothschilds and hertzl) were many, but the two primary reasons were 1) the Jewish population of the empire was highly productive and it would have served to draw European Jewry, and thus (theoretically) increase the profits for the imperial coffers, and 2) as one of the most stable and loyal ethnic groups in the empire a Jewish beylik would have created a geographic wedge between competing Muslim beys who weren't always perfectly loyal to the Grand Porte.

 

I would have put slightly less than even odds on the plan prior to WWI, but it was a real possibility, and if the ottoman's had stayed out of WWI (or gotten out faster) the odds probably would have increased. The rise of nationalism among Arabs in the 20th century was unavoidable (with or without Israel) and pressures of revolt among Muslims would have made the plan more and more appealing as the decades passed - and would have caused the fall of the ottoman empire in the end, anyways.

 

And that would have meant those beylicks that hadn't revolted would have collapsed into smaller states or been on their own by the 1950's or 1960's. The creation of a Jewish beylik, or even the migration of European Jewry to the region without such an entity emerging, still could have resulted in the emergence of a Jewish state. The real question is: would the rise of nationalism occurred at all?

 

Edit: replaced "hillel" with "herzl" - big difference.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

Religion of all stripes plays such a small role in my games, nobody would notice the difference.

[Hermit]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

 

 

Prior to WWI there were some pretty grounded discussions with the Ottoman's about turning the current location of modern Israel (and part of southern Lebanon) into what would amount to a semi-autonomous Jewish "beylick" within the empire. WWI, however, put a stopper on that idea - as did nationalism. The Jews prior to the world wars, while wanting a homeland, weren't as deeply committed to a completely independent state. Islamic nationalism also emerged from this era, but for different reasons, and is one of the principle causes of radical islamic thought in the modern day.

Thanks Von D, you're always educational.

The real question is: would the rise of nationalism occurred at all?

 

Good question. I think the major divisions would be along religious sects in such a world but I can't imagine other factors wouldn't also come into play.

[Balabanto]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

Well, the first thing you'd have to deal with would be the fact that most women would go around masked all the time anyway, so there'd be absolutely zero ability to stop women from being superheroines, however, the cultural stigma against it would be HUGE.

 

Though a bunch of bizarre multicolored burqas might be amusing to see.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

Well, the first thing you'd have to deal with would be the fact that most women would go around masked all the time anyway, so there'd be absolutely zero ability to stop women from being superheroines, however, the cultural stigma against it would be HUGE.

 

Though a bunch of bizarre multicolored burqas might be amusing to see.

 

I'm not sure if they all have to be veiled. However, dress has to be modest. In most cases, if I remember correctly, scarves, long sleeves, and pants may be enough.

[OddHat]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

"Dress has to be modest" assumes that secular society would not have developed in a world where Islam was the dominant faith. Considering the history of Persia and the Ottoman Empire, that assumption is unconvincing. I'd guess you'd see a society pretty much like the modern world, with mosques instead of churches. Looking at the government of Iran and saying "all Islamic nations would be like this" is like looking at Spain during the Inquisition and saying "Christianity leads to this".

[Vondy]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

Well, the first thing you'd have to deal with would be the fact that most women would go around masked all the time anyway, so there'd be absolutely zero ability to stop women from being superheroines, however, the cultural stigma against it would be HUGE.

 

Though a bunch of bizarre multicolored burqas might be amusing to see.

 

The burqa is only common to specific cultural groups and sects in Islam and is by no means universal. Also, veiling the face has come in and out of fashion in the Islamic world at various points in history. For instance, In Egypt during the 12th century the Rambam (Jewish, but living in the Muslim world) describes what amounts to a hijab without a veil as the common mode of dress for women in his place, but in letters to the Jews of Yemen discusses the full veil and burqa, which was common in the more stringent arabian sphere of influence in which they lived. Indeed, the modern Wahabist Islam of Saudi Arabia (where the burqa is the norm) is arguably more stringent than many medieval streams of Islam, and is considered extreme by the standards of much of the Arab world - sunni, alawite, and shiite - today. Indeed, the hijab and and not the veil is the norm in most arab states today.

[Vondy]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

"Dress has to be modest" assumes that secular society would not have developed in a world where Islam was the dominant faith. Considering the history of Persia and the Ottoman Empire' date=' that assumption is unconvincing. I'd guess you'd see a society pretty much like the modern world, with mosques instead of churches. Looking at the government of Iran and saying "all Islamic nations would be like this" is like looking at Spain during the Inquisition and saying "Christianity leads to this".[/quote']

 

Especially since the burqa and full veil is not the norm in Iran today...!

[OddHat]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

Especially since the burqa and full veil is not the norm in Iran today...!

 

Yup.

[McManus]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

You might also want to consider areas of the world where Islam has already spread. The most populated Islamic country is Indonesia. It is very different in culture from Saudi Arabia or Egypt, which are in turn somewhat different from each other. Or Uzbekistan, Kosovo, China, etc. Islam is by no means mono-cultural today. In a world without Christianity I would imagine it being a coating (or veneer) over regional cultures. What would a predominantly Muslim Scandinavia be like? Or Peru?

[Mark Rand]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

From what I've seen in the real Pittsburgh, the hijab (head covering) is what most Islamic women wear locally. In a mostly Islamic United States, would a Jewish woman wear one? If so, would she still wear it inside the synagogue?

[OddHat]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

You've seen that most of the women you think are Muslims are wearing head coverings. It's a useful group identifier, a way of reminding yourself that you're part of Group X and of letting others know as well.

 

As to Jewish women in an Islamic USA, how assimilated are they? Assimilated secular Jews wear the same fashions as the majority (so do assimilated, secular Muslims). A Hasidim is not going to be wearing the same clothing as an Orthodox Jew, and you won't be able to tell the difference between a secular Jew and anyone else on the street.

[assault]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

Well' date=' without Christianity, assuming it formed at all, Islam would certainly steam roll right over Europe. The Pope was the one man able to really unite all of Europe for Crusades and such and Christianity was the banner of that unity.[/quote']

 

If Christianity hadn't existed, something broadly similar probably would have, since it emerged from the social environment of the Roman Empire.

 

Also, the Pope wasn't "able to really unite all of Europe", since about half of (Christian) Europe was Orthodox, not Catholic. (Just sayin'.)

 

However, Islam as we know it wouldn't exist without Christianity being strong, particularly in the Middle East. There are strong Christian and Jewish influences on Islam. (The latter are actually stronger in some respects.) Many Arab communities at the time were Christian or Jewish. If you change that, you change Islam.

 

As an aside, when the idols were removed from the Kaaba, the ones that weren't smashed were the Christian and Jewish ones. They were removed respectfully. Apparently images of Jesus, Mary and Abraham count as "idols". I find this idea fascinating.

 

Judiasm is still where it is? As in Israel is an actual country?

 

I could see Judaism "still where it is" everywhere but in Israel. The probability of Israel existing in its present form seems wildly unlikely.

 

On the other hand, a mixed Islamic/Jewish/Christian Palestine would be quite likely, possibly even with a Jewish majority and a government that was overwhelmingly composed of Jews.

[The Arc]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

I think if there ever was a turning point in which Islam would've overtaken Christianinty it would have been if the Muslims had won the Battle of Tours in 732. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours

 

This was the furthest into Europe that the Muslims conquered, southern France. Remember that Islam had conquered Spain.

[Cancer]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

I think an important consideration is how the end state came to be, perhaps more important than the end state itself. Is the West Muslim instead of Christian because Christianity never grew to dominate Rome? Or is it Muslim because Charles Martel failed to repel the Saracens in France (so instead Islam stalled out at, perhaps, the Rhine and the Alps rather than the Pyrenees), and the Kazakhs converted to Islam earlier and overran Novgorod, Moscow, and ultimately swept all the way to the Baltic, and the Ottomans succeeded at taking Vienna, then Munich, and ultimately Dresden, Cologne, and the Hanseatic cities?

 

If Islam conquered Christian Europe, then perhaps the only outposts of Christianity would be the British Isles and Scandinavia, and the mystique of conquest would be very strong in the culture. Quite possibly Christianity would be relegated to the collection of little-known but generally dismissed "idolarity" religions, and I would expect that it would be harshly repressed because of its "idolarity".

 

If instead Islam took the West because Christianity never took hold, that's quite different. Now you have a cultural void, so to speak, to fill, because I don't think feudalism (among other things) would have evolved in the form we know it.

[McManus]

Re: Islam replaces Christianity

 

Why would you have an Islamic US? Would the Europeans even have come to the "New World"? Might China, or some other group have conquered? Or perhaps the Native Americans would have risen and made contact with the "Old World"?

 

Hard to say without more background.