Cap is dead!!!!

[Plex]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Unfortunately starting your own comic book business is not as easy. I tried it in the 90's and it was definitely still the good old boy network to get anywhere. I've seen nothing to change my perception on the matter. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade here, just throwing out my 2 cents. Besides I'm seeing signs of the 90's collapse all over again.

[Starfighter]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

The day the writers to tell their stories by crushing the soul of the shared universe ( I'm talking about way more than Cap here) is the day they need to quit and close their doors Calling most of these replies cynicism just doesn't make sense to me. The cynics are the writers who hate heroism' date=' idealism, and larger than life heros are the cynics here. The cynicism in modern comics has depressed me for years.[/quote']

If you believe these characters are people who are chiseled in marble and are never to be changed in any way, then I would quit reading comics. Treating the characters like they live in some unapproachable ivory tower will be the death of them in my opinion.

 

When I talk about 'change', I'm not talking about turning Batman into an axe-murderer, or turning Spider-Man into a serial-rapist, I'm talking about giving the characters more emotional depth and adding on to the characters' already established background.

 

All you have to do is look at what Brubaker did with Bucky and you see what I mean. He made Bucky into a more compelling character than any version by any other writer I have read.

[Balabanto]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

The problem here, again, is not Brubaker. I would bet MONEY that Brubaker didn't come up with this. This is like Strazynski and the Norman Osborn/Gwen sex stuff, where they TOLD him to write it.

 

Strazynski was like WTF? You want to do WHAT to Spider Man? He almost quit.

 

I'll bet that Brubaker went home and said "I can either do this cheesy, or I can pray that the fans trust me enough to do this the right way."

 

Keep in mind, if this is the case, we shouldn't be kicking his ass. I think we should diss Quesada and Millar for being morons, and give Brubaker the support he needs to bring HIS hero back.

 

You know Cap is his favorite, right?

[Spence]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Unfortunately starting your own comic book business is not as easy. I tried it in the 90's and it was definitely still the good old boy network to get anywhere. I've seen nothing to change my perception on the matter. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade here' date=' just throwing out my 2 cents. Besides I'm seeing signs of the 90's collapse all over again.[/quote']

 

You imply that they recovered after the 90's . In my personal opinion, except for the very rare and quickly crushed spark of creativity, comics have been settling to the bottom for years.

{clarification for reading my rant I do not think of the writers or editorial staff as a separate entity. If the writer is a genius, but the editor turns it into crap by the time it hits the stand, it is still crap. So it really doesn't matter who wrote it, if the entire team isn't on board, it will still flop. So when I say writer or editor I am using them as a single interchangeable term }

 

Most of this is based on what I think a comic should be, of course. In one of the threads it was mentioned that the age of the average reader was in the 30-40's (?). I would believe that, since that was the age of comics when they were good. My personal belief is that the current industry has forgotten the very reason comics were successful in the first place. They were NOT real world stories, examples of social reform or a pulpit from which the writers and editors could preach about the worlds ills, or in current fashion blame the US for every and anything. Comics were escapism and adventure. Clearly defined good guys versus clearly defined bad guys (from the readers perspective). They may be misunderstood, but they were GOOD GUYS. Now all the stories are trying to beat us to death with whatever social agenda that the staff has. Right now they have picked up the flag of the anti-American press. The US is EVIL and the source of all the worlds ills.

 

Can there be an Iconic hero that embodies the core US values. Of course not! They must be rewritten to be somehow imperfect and then if the readers just can't get it, the character must be killed.

 

Killing off Captain America after totally destroying the fabric of what their comic line was is no surprise to me. After all they have heartily embraced the ludicrous belief that ALL government agencies are evil especially if they are American, rather than the truth of government agencies are made up of people who can be evil, good or just stupid.

 

I know things were beyond a fix with the last Superman movie. Supes was never my favorite character since I prefer lower power levels. But the character was THE Iconic American hero. He always does RIGHT based or old fashioned ethics and moral standards. In other words he would never act dishonorably. Period. In the whole civil war crap, at most he would have talked, prevented outright atrocities by either side, but would have remained neutral. In the movie he would have NEVER produced an illegitimate child. Period. 50+ years of Superman ethics would never have allowed the character to diddle out of wedlock. Ever.

 

Yet we find Lane has popped out his son. Hmmmm....

 

 

All in all I think the proof is in the bottom line. Marvel is making its money from the movies, most of which are using 80-90's as the story line. DC is just strangling. As for comic sales themselves, I think my eyes give a better indicator than any parroting of company figures. When I recently decided to try a few comics again, I had to look for a comic shop. They are very very rare today compared to when I was younger. Back then it wasn't a question of finding the store, rather it was which store had the best selection of back issues. When I go into a book store today, instead of 10-20 people reading their favorites from among the 30-40+ lines represented in the long wall rack that was as large as the regular magazine racks, what I is see one spindly rotating rack with maybe 30 books total from Marvel, DC and the Indies. In the SciFi/Fantasy section they will have two to three shelves of Graphics Novels containing collections were the bulk of them are not current, but rather they are Indies and collections of Marvel and DC from 20+ years ago.

 

Where are all the loitering readers you ask?? Go find the Manga shelf. Manga occupies shelf space about 1/4th of the area given to SciFi Fantasy in the big stores(B&N and Borders). Plus there are always people reading in the aisles. And not just one segment. I see young girls, older girls, young boys, older boys, and a healthy sprinkle of adults from both genders.

 

This thread is a pretty good measure of why the comic industry is killing itself off.

 

1 or 2 posters think that the current books are good or great.

 

2-4 people have basically said that the staff has promise and occasionally put out something good, so maybe they should be given a chance.

 

And the rest of the overwhelming majority indicate various levels of disappointment with the complete mishandling of series X or Y.

 

Out of the hundreds of issues over the last few years, even the supportes are defending their position by pulling up a few and widely spaced examples of "great issues" or "great stories". In a strong industry, good and great books should be the standard and the crappy issues should be rare, not the other way around.

 

Another way to look at it. I can spend $3+ dollars (remember tax) for 15-20 pages of story (after subtracting none story advertisements and such). That makes it about $10.00 for 60 pages (optimistically counting).

 

Compare that to $10.00 for a 188 page Manga book. (advertisements start at page 191. Plus the stories and plots a actually thought out and don't consistently contradict the previous volumes).

 

Hmmmm big choice there.

 

OK Ill step down from my soap box rant now .

[assault]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

50+ years of Superman ethics would never have allowed the character to diddle out of wedlock. Ever.

 

You know you should never say things like that around geeks.

 

http://superman.ws/tales2/whotook/2/?page=12

http://superman.ws/tales2/whotook/2/?page=13

 

It doesn't get much more explicit under the Comics Code.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Well if you're like me' date=' the reason you hate Cable is the whole, "Sure I could level the whole planet with my mental powers, but I carry a gun 'cause it's KeWl"[/quote']

 

 

As a side note, in Cable's early appearances, his telekinesis was exceptionally weak ... he could move small objects, perhaps ten pounds or less, and that was about it. He carried a gun because his mutant power was too weak to be useful, which is acceptable. (For the same reason, I don't mind Bishop packing a gun. His power is too situational.)

 

Cable as the uber-psi was a retcon, but the guns were already a part of the package, so they stuck around.

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

The problem here, again, is not Brubaker. I would bet MONEY that Brubaker didn't come up with this. This is like Strazynski and the Norman Osborn/Gwen sex stuff, where they TOLD him to write it.

 

Strazynski was like WTF? You want to do WHAT to Spider Man? He almost quit.

 

I'll bet that Brubaker went home and said "I can either do this cheesy, or I can pray that the fans trust me enough to do this the right way."

 

Keep in mind, if this is the case, we shouldn't be kicking his ass. I think we should diss Quesada and Millar for being morons, and give Brubaker the support he needs to bring HIS hero back.

 

You know Cap is his favorite, right?

Brubaker himself has said that it was his idea to kill Cap. And in the same interview said he thought Millar hated America, so I doubt he just said it cause they told him to.

 

But even with that, I don't hate Brubaker for killing Cap.

[Spence]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

You know you should never say things like that around geeks.

 

http://superman.ws/tales2/whotook/2/?page=12

http://superman.ws/tales2/whotook/2/?page=13

 

It doesn't get much more explicit under the Comics Code.

 

True, but the kiss was the risqué part. And it would never have even crossed anyones mind they went beyond the date. That is the decadent modern thinking. Plus I don't think you will find an issue where Supes meets his illegitimate son.

[Checkmate]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

As a side note' date=' in Cable's early appearances, his telekinesis was exceptionally weak ...[/quote']

His limits were never set in the begining. He didn't lift more than that, but it never said he couldn't. He also had the ability to make everyone at Central Park forget he was ever there, which is telepathy on the Jean Grey scale and that was his first appearance...And lets not forget that his arm is not just bionic, it's techno-organic.

 

So lets look at his first appearance: High class telepathy, minor TK, Techno-organic arm that can heal itself (possibly change shape), and of course a gun.

[assault]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

True' date=' but the kiss was the risqué part. And it would never have even crossed anyones mind they went beyond the date. That is the decadent modern thinking.[/quote']

 

:rofl:

 

Because 1976 was such an innocent time!

 

Repped for the laugh.

[Checkmate]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

True' date=' but the kiss was the risqué part. And it would never have even crossed anyones mind they went beyond the date. That is the decadent modern thinking. Plus I don't think you will find an issue where Supes meets his illegitimate son.[/quote']

Well she's wearing the same dress as the day before, which implies she spent the night at Clark's.

[Spence]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

:rofl:

 

Because 1976 was such an innocent time!

 

I'll rep you for the laugh. Once I rep some other people first.

 

[Spence]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Well she's wearing the same dress as the day before' date=' which implies she spent the night at Clark's.[/quote']

 

Absolutely.

 

But it would have never even occurred to the target audience.

 

Kinda why Shrek was/is so popular. It was intended for kids, but has hidden adult humor. Right over the heads of the kids, but the adults infer a lot.

 

About the dress. The vast majority of readers in 76 probably wouldn't have noticed plus it may actually have meant nothing. Looking at some of my old comics, it seems many characters wore the same set of clothes for entire issues, even ones spanning weeks .

[psm]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

 

Most of this is based on what I think a comic should be, of course. In one of the threads it was mentioned that the age of the average reader was in the 30-40's (?). I would believe that, since that was the age of comics when they were good. My personal belief is that the current industry has forgotten the very reason comics were successful in the first place. They were NOT real world stories, examples of social reform or a pulpit from which the writers and editors could preach about the worlds ills, or in current fashion blame the US for every and anything. Comics were escapism and adventure. Clearly defined good guys versus clearly defined bad guys (from the readers perspective). They may be misunderstood, but they were GOOD GUYS. Now all the stories are trying to beat us to death with whatever social agenda that the staff has. Right now they have picked up the flag of the anti-American press. The US is EVIL and the source of all the worlds ills.

 

That is incorrect. The original superheroes were all born out of world ills. Superman was created by two Jewish kids as a means to deal with the injustices of the day. He originally, fought mobsters, dictators, and common thugs. The stuff of the real world. The same is true for Batman. Even more so is Captain America who was a direct reflection of our attitudes for the war in Europe. Hell, he punched Hitler before we were even in the war. It wasn't until later that superheroes started to move farther and farther away from reality. In part due to the comic code authority which made it virtually impossible to deal with anything except the most ludicrous villians and far out worlds. Then you have Marvel in the 60's which was always a reflection of society. The Fantastic Four has allegories to the space race between Russia and the US. The X-Men are very loose representation of the civil rights movement. Then you have Spiderman. Spiderman who always was the everyman. The kid from NY, not some made up city, who had problems with rent, girls, and his elderly aunt. Captain America in the 70's became Nomad because he lost faith in his country do to Nixon. How is that not based on reality. Marvel characters have always been imperfect, flawed and right outside our door step.

 

As for the anti-american press comment, well that's not a subject I will approach here. Plus it would probably get us both banned.

 

Can there be an Iconic hero that embodies the core US values. Of course not! They must be rewritten to be somehow imperfect and then if the readers just can't get it, the character must be killed.

 

Killing off Captain America after totally destroying the fabric of what their comic line was is no surprise to me. After all they have heartily embraced the ludicrous belief that ALL government agencies are evil especially if they are American, rather than the truth of government agencies are made up of people who can be evil, good or just stupid.

 

I think you are missing the point of the story. They were trying to reflect the debate that is going on in this country between freedom and security. Currently, with the Patriot Act, warrant-less wiretapping, and the removal of habeas corpus, they showed that security has trumped civil liberties for the time being.

 

All in all I think the proof is in the bottom line. Marvel is making its money from the movies, most of which are using 80-90's as the story line. DC is just strangling. As for comic sales themselves, I think my eyes give a better indicator than any parroting of company figures. When I recently decided to try a few comics again, I had to look for a comic shop. They are very very rare today compared to when I was younger. Back then it wasn't a question of finding the store, rather it was which store had the best selection of back issues. When I go into a book store today, instead of 10-20 people reading their favorites from among the 30-40+ lines represented in the long wall rack that was as large as the regular magazine racks, what I is see one spindly rotating rack with maybe 30 books total from Marvel, DC and the Indies. In the SciFi/Fantasy section they will have two to three shelves of Graphics Novels containing collections were the bulk of them are not current, but rather they are Indies and collections of Marvel and DC from 20+ years ago.

 

Where are all the loitering readers you ask?? Go find the Manga shelf. Manga occupies shelf space about 1/4th of the area given to SciFi Fantasy in the big stores(B&N and Borders). Plus there are always people reading in the aisles. And not just one segment. I see young girls, older girls, young boys, older boys, and a healthy sprinkle of adults from both genders.

 

This thread is a pretty good measure of why the comic industry is killing itself off.

 

All that shows is that mainstream audiences don't care for the superhero genre. Thats nothing new. Superheroes almost died out in the 50's. Romance, western, military and crime comics were selling in the millions. The comic code authority is the only thing that saved them from oblivion. The manga market is what the American comic market used to be at it's height.

 

 

1 or 2 posters think that the current books are good or great.

 

2-4 people have basically said that the staff has promise and occasionally put out something good, so maybe they should be given a chance.

 

And the rest of the overwhelming majority indicate various levels of disappointment with the complete mishandling of series X or Y.

 

Out of the hundreds of issues over the last few years, even the supportes are defending their position by pulling up a few and widely spaced examples of "great issues" or "great stories". In a strong industry, good and great books should be the standard and the crappy issues should be rare, not the other way around.

 

All that shows is that we are in the minority here. Sales have been up across the boards for comics. Civil War has brought in new readers to the comic stores. More importantly, the comics being created now are more inviting and more appealing to the mainstream market for all the reasons you probably hate them. This is especially necessary because as the years go by Marvel/DC will focus more of their efforts on the bookstore market.

 

Sorry, you guys are the old guard and comics have outgrown you.

[Gideon]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

CrosshairCollie, and Checkmate: Not to get horribly derailed from the topic here, but the semmingly exponential growth of Cable's telepathing and telekinetic powers were explained. In the begining most of his mutant powers were focused on keeping the techno-virus in check. He eventually learned to some way around this problem and was able to show his actual (read as: completely cracked) power level. They "rememidied" this and down powered him not-to-long-ago, by giving him a partial lobotomy and replaceing the T-O-infected tissue with benign techno-organic tissue.

 

It still doesn't make up for him being a lousy chracter though.

[assault]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

About the dress. The vast majority of readers in 76 probably wouldn't have noticed plus it may actually have meant nothing.

 

Actually, according to this page, the comment about the same dress was censored, and replaced.

 

So the implication was there and was intended, but the editor tried to minimise it.

 

But he didn't remove it.

[Hermit]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

 

All that shows is that we are in the minority here. Sales have been up across the boards for comics. Civil War has brought in new readers to the comic stores. More importantly, the comics being created now are more inviting and more appealing to the mainstream market for all the reasons you probably hate them. This is especially necessary because as the years go by Marvel/DC will focus more of their efforts on the bookstore market.

 

Sorry, you guys are the old guard and comics have outgrown you.

 

I would say the sales boost is there, but that's in comparison to the drop in the late 90s that occured due to stunts not unlike this. Short term story lines that sold well at first, then drove off long term readers, and those attracted in by the storyline left, the "old guard" didn't come back either, at least not all of them. The Spider-Man Clone saga sold very well at first, but ended up costing Spider-Man 60% of his readership when all was said and done. It took years to get that back. Civil War and its offshoots could be another repeat of that. Yes, for a moment everyone thought it was 93' again, and collected this stuff... but will those fans drawn in, assuming they're even read it, stay? It is very possible they won't.

 

Some could make the arguement comics are in danger of another bust, and Marvel is setting themselves up for the fall. Of course, this time, they have successful movies to draw on, so who knows?

[keithcurtis]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Actually' date=' according to this page, the comment about the same dress was censored, and replaced.

 

So the implication was there and was intended, but the editor tried to minimise it.

 

But he didn't remove it.

It was not replaced in the print version, but only in the special edition.

 

Supes had several implied encounters before marrying Lois. THe one that sticks out most in my memory was with Amazing Grace(?) of Apoclypse, admittedly while mind controlled, similar to the situation between Moondragon and Thor. (And possibly Barda - evidence is less conclusive). Apparently it's OK to have mind-control sex with male superheroes.

 

Keith "Unless you're Ms. Marvel's writer" Curtis

[Spence]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

All that shows is that mainstream audiences don't care for the superhero genre. Thats nothing new. Superheroes almost died out in the 50's. Romance, western, military and crime comics were selling in the millions. The comic code authority is the only thing that saved them from oblivion. The manga market is what the American comic market used to be at it's height..

 

Except for specifying "don't care for the superhero genre" you are correct. The mainstream doesn't care for Comics of any kind (comics defined as Marvel/DC) like they did, and Manga and the Indies have indeed replaced them. My only hope is since I came into Manga late in the game that it will stay strong for a while.

 

 

All that shows is that we are in the minority here. Sales have been up across the boards for comics. Civil War has brought in new readers to the comic stores. More importantly, the comics being created now are more inviting and more appealing to the mainstream market for all the reasons you probably hate them. This is especially necessary because as the years go by Marvel/DC will focus more of their efforts on the bookstore market.

 

Sorry, you guys are the old guard and comics have outgrown you.

 

I love how the pro-comic industry cheerleaders keep saying how everything is up. Yet even the industry is admitting that the movies are propping up the companies. I'm sure that you are correct that CW brought in readers. TV infomercials sell thousands of dollars for useless material too. There will always be that select few who will buy anything or belief anyone. And yet only thing more scarce than a comic book is a winning 100 million dollar lotto ticket. Heck there are more D&D books on the shelf than comics.

 

No comics haven't outgrown us. The young and gullible have embraced the cheap imitations that are all that is left in the Marvel/DC lines.

 

But one mans garbage is another mans treasure.

 

All that said, if you really like them, go for it. After all my opinion falls under the one mans garbage is another mans treasure concept too . It's your money, and if they are worth it too you, then you should press on and ignore us from the peanut gallery.

 

I will say I think you should be paying 75 cents an issue rather than $3. Even if I don't agree with your position on content, I hate to see anyone paying more than reasonable.

[Spence]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Actually' date=' according to this page, the comment about the same dress was censored, and replaced.

 

So the implication was there and was intended, but the editor tried to minimise it.

 

But he didn't remove it.

 

Cool thanks,

 

One of the great things about this forum, is regardless of topic and the flurry of opinions flying around. There will always be someone who really knows and actually has facts

[assault]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

It was not replaced in the print version' date=' but only in the special edition.[/quote']

 

The "replacement" was the print version. The special edition restored what was replaced/censored.

 

In other words, the print version omitted the "same dress" stuff, which the authors had written, but which Julius Schwartz had cut.

 

The special edition is, by analogy to films, the "writers' cut".

 

Supes had several implied encounters before marrying Lois. THe one that sticks out most in my memory was with Amazing Grace(?) of Apoclypse, admittedly while mind controlled, similar to the situation between Moondragon and Thor. (And possibly Barda - evidence is less conclusive).

 

I deliberately omitted these, because they were mid-80s post-Crisis. Furthermore, as you have pointed out they involved mind control. Using an earlier, pre-Crisis source, where Superman wasn't under compulsion, is both geekier and more convincing, since it can't be dismissed as "Iron Age rubbish".

 

If I could have found an earlier source I would have. Superman had plenty of earlier romances, of course, but there is no implication of pre-marital sex that I recall. Well, aside from the kind of covers and images that turn up on the various joke sites.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

The "replacement" was the print version. The special edition restored what was replaced/censored.

 

In other words, the print version omitted the "same dress" stuff, which the authors had written, but which Julius Schwartz had cut.

 

The special edition is, by analogy to films, the "writers' cut".

Sorry, imprecise language on my part. What I meant was that looking to that story for pre-Crisis monkeyshines on Superman's part was not looking at what was then-"canon". The original intent was never printed pre-Crisis.

I deliberately omitted these, because they were mid-80s post-Crisis. Furthermore, as you have pointed out they involved mind control. Using an earlier, pre-Crisis source, where Superman wasn't under compulsion, is both geekier and more convincing, since it can't be dismissed as "Iron Age rubbish".

 

If I could have found an earlier source I would have. Superman had plenty of earlier romances, of course, but there is no implication of pre-marital sex that I recall. Well, aside from the kind of covers and images that turn up on the various joke sites.

 

This is all true. I didn't know what time criteria you were using. I was using Spence's comment that sparked the citation:

50+ years of Superman ethics would never have allowed the character to diddle out of wedlock. Ever.

 

Keith "But yes, the vast majority of characters in either DC or Marvel had no overt pre-marital sex before 1980 or so" Curtis

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Most of this is based on what I think a comic should be' date=' of course. In one of the threads it was mentioned that the age of the average reader was in the 30-40's (?). I would believe that, since that was the age of comics when they were good.[/quote']

 

I'm 41. I started reading comics in the ear;ly 1970's. So I intuit your "comics were good" bookmark is about there and a few years back (for readers in their later 40's).

 

My personal belief is that the current industry has forgotten the very reason comics were successful in the first place. They were NOT real world stories' date=' examples of social reform or a pulpit from which the writers and editors could preach about the worlds ills[/quote']

 

Like the JLA issue on diversity, the GL/GA road show, Speedy the Junkie, Harry Osborne the Junkie?

 

or in current fashion blame the US for every and anything.

 

As I recall, a pretty large cross section of Marvel villains at that time linked back to either communist Asia or the USSR. They were cheerfully blamed for anything and everything. Even Canada was that evil nation that could not let Wolverine go free, so they sent first Major Maple Leaf and then Alpha Flight to return him against his will.

 

So, basically, it was OK to make other nations responsible for things they didn't actually do then - those comics were good. But criticizing actions the United States has actually taken should not be permitted - that's why today's comics are bad.

 

Comics were escapism and adventure. Clearly defined good guys[/quotes]

Including virtually any former villain who defected from the commies

and clearly defined bad guys

Like commies!

(from the readers perspective). They may be misunderstood' date=' but they were GOOD GUYS. Now all the stories are trying to beat us to death with whatever social agenda that the staff has. Right now they have picked up the flag of the anti-American press. The US is EVIL and the source of all the worlds ills.[/quote']

 

Yes, we remember - criticism of the USA is always bad. [Funny...I remember reading a lot of stories back in the "Comics were good" days where we were hit over the head with these other nations being vile and evil because they didn't tolerate dissent or criticism of their government policies - but, of course, they were EVIL and the USA is GOOD, so that makes all the difference in the world.]

 

Can there be an Iconic hero that embodies the core US values. Of course not! They must be rewritten to be somehow imperfect and then if the readers just can't get it' date=' the character must be killed.[/quote']

 

Actually, I found some of the best Captain America stories were those that stated Captain America stood for the values that America was supposed to stand for, even when those values were not embodied by the government of the day. Like when Cap had a crisis of conscience due to Watergate (but he probably wasn't REALLY a crook - after all, he was the President of the USA, so he's pretty much deemed a Good Guy, right?).

 

Killing off Captain America after totally destroying the fabric of what their comic line was is no surprise to me. After all they have heartily embraced the ludicrous belief that ALL government agencies are evil especially if they are American' date=' rather than the truth of government agencies are made up of people who can be evil, good or just stupid.[/quote']

 

Unless they're commies. Comics were good when we just blamed the commies for everything. I guess it's the fall of communism that really caused the downfall of comics. No more easy enemy. Hmmm...and comics previously took a huge downturn after WW II, when we couldn't blame the Nazis and the Japs for everything, and resurged when we found a new target in the Commies.

 

I know things were beyond a fix with the last Superman movie. Supes was never my favorite character since I prefer lower power levels. But the character was THE Iconic American hero. He always does RIGHT based or old fashioned ethics and moral standards. In other words he would never act dishonorably. Period. In the whole civil war crap, at most he would have talked, prevented outright atrocities by either side, but would have remained neutral. In the movie he would have NEVER produced an illegitimate child. Period. 50+ years of Superman ethics would never have allowed the character to diddle out of wedlock. Ever.

 

Yet we find Lane has popped out his son. Hmmmm....

 

 

As for comic sales themselves' date=' I think my eyes give a better indicator than any parroting of company figures. When I recently decided to try a few comics again, I had to [b']look for[/b] a comic shop. They are very very rare today compared to when I was younger.

 

Numbers seem pretty comparable here. Off the top of my head, I can think of [Warp I, II, III; Comic Fever West, North and South, Wizards three times; Happy Harbour] 10 in the metro area, and Edmonton's not a huge center. There may well be mroe - I don't go looking for new comic stores. That's as many or more as when I was in high school and Direct Sales were just starting out (about 1982 or so), but we got our comics in drug stores and convenience stores from that

 

one spindly rotating rack

they all had,

 

1 or 2 posters think that the current books are good or great.

 

2-4 people have basically said that the staff has promise and occasionally put out something good, so maybe they should be given a chance.

 

And the rest of the overwhelming majority indicate various levels of disappointment with the complete mishandling of series X or Y.

 

Frankly, there was lots of crap in the 1970's too. Probably in the 1960's, but I only bought those as back issues, so the crap was avoided.

 

In any case, my experience is that people are far more prone to discuss negatives than positives. I haven't seen anyone on these boards give Marvel a pat on the back for, say, running a full page in all their books to commemorate the death of Dave Cockrum. In the 1970's, the companies were busy denying creator rights and refusing to return Jack Kriby's original artwork (but we fans didn't get a lot of insights into those issues). Happier times, indeed!

[casualplayer]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Cap is dead and we're talking about Superman's sex life at his wake! Oh, the humanity!

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

His limits were never set in the begining. He didn't lift more than that, but it never said he couldn't. He also had the ability to make everyone at Central Park forget he was ever there, which is telepathy on the Jean Grey scale and that was his first appearance...And lets not forget that his arm is not just bionic, it's techno-organic.

 

So lets look at his first appearance: High class telepathy, minor TK, Techno-organic arm that can heal itself (possibly change shape), and of course a gun.

 

Actually, yes he did say that he couldn't. X-Force #25, IIRC, during 'Fatal Attractions', he declares that 'my telekinesis moves tools; (Stryfe's) moves mountains'.

 

Which 'first appearance' is this? I own his first appearance in New Mutants #88, and he wasn't anywhere near Central Park.