Idea - Hero Points

[wylodmayer]

One day, while noodling through the HERO book, I noticed the "other ways of using Luck" section, under the Luck power. The first one suggests that, at the beginning of the game, the owner of the power could roll his Luck dice, count the BODY, and get to re-roll that many rolls (given that a later option talks of rerolling individual dice, the implication here is that you re-roll the whole roll, like an entire damage roll or an entire to hit roll) during the game. A later bit mentions that anytime re-rolls are allowed, the player can keep rolling until he gets something better than the roll to be re-rolled.

 

Fair enough.

 

One die of Luck is 5 points.

 

Standard effect for one die is 1.

 

Standard effect: one die of Luck, one reroll.

 

Now that got me thinking...

 

Characters can only use Character Points to buy powers, skills, etc when the GM deems it appropriate, and then only for things deemed appropriate as well.

 

Certainly, not every character can legitimately be eligible for the Luck power, except in the pulpiest of pulp games, perhaps.

 

However, what player character, except in the grittiest of realistic settings, isn't eligible for a little bit of Luck in dramatic situations?

 

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you... The Hero Point.

 

The character gets 1D6 of Luck (5 Active Points), to be used specifically according to one of the optional uses listed on H5 128; specifically, to allow re-rolls. The “power” has a Standard Effect, which means that the character gets one re-roll for every Hero Point spent. A re-roll is taken on a group of dice, not on individual dice; that is, on an entire skill check (all three d6’s) or an entire damage roll. The use of Luck in this manner guarantees a more favorable result; the player can keep re-rolling until he gets a roll that is better than the one that prompted the re-roll. Further re-rolls can be taken on new results, if the player wishes to spend more of his character’s Hero Points. The Luck has One Charge which Never Recovers (-4), reducing its cost... to 1 Point.

 

You buy it on the fly, when you need it. Make your re-roll, and your precious Character Point is gone.

 

Another use could be to pump combat values, especially DCV. A character can purchase one 8-point CSL with the Instant (-1/2) and One Charge that Never Recovers (-4) Limitations, for a final cost of... 1 Point. This level is in effect for only 1 Phase, essentially only to undertake or resist one attack. In essence, you are spending CPs to boost your CV on a one-for-one basis.

 

I think this kind of spending would be appropriate in almost any genre or setting. Player Characters are supposed to have an edge, supposed to be noteworthy, and should rightfully have a little more luck on their side. Plus, PCs are in no way getting a free ride. Everything is above-board, no fudging, and it allows them to "nudge" the odds to be a little more effective when they need it.

 

I think it's neat. What does everyone else think?

 

(BTW, these are not the only uses I have come up with for Hero Points, just the only uncontroversial ones)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Idea - Hero Points

 

See also Hero Action Points, Pulp Hero p360-364

[OddHat]

Re: Idea - Hero Points

 

I proposed something similar in 2004 and tested it in game. It wasn't used much, even with a guaranteed critical; players don't like losing XP.

 

My last convention game was a Teen Titans tribute. I used a HERO point system where each character was able to get one guaranteed critical on one roll, if they could come up with a story describing something their mentor had taught them and how it applied to the situation. It worked well, and fit in with the teen heroes sub-genre.

 

Zornwil has a chip system that he uses for his Cyber Ninja Pirates game that would port over well to HERO, and RDUNeil has a very interesting luck chit system.

 

All of that said, these kinds of systems can work in HERO; it's mainly a question of what the players and GM prefer.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Idea - Hero Points

 

Well, it's nice to know I'm not the only one who's ever thought of something like this - it makes me feel less crazy for suggesting it.

 

As for players losing XP, I generally agree, but the idea first came to me after my group switched to HERO from DC Heroes, a game where your "xp" is also a pool of points you can use to influence the game. Different players had different styles, of course, but some of them really appreciated the flexibility and used it often. Too often, perhaps.

[gojira]

Re: Idea - Hero Points

 

My only idea here is that 5 points feels like a lot, just for one re-roll per night. A die of luck that can ONLY be used this way might qualify for a -1/2 limitation, which feels a little closer to what I'd expect or want as a player.

 

I like OddHat's idea for adding a little rollplaying story onto the critical. Nice thinkin' that.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Idea - Hero Points

 

He's saying it'll be 1 point Goji; after all the lims & modifiers, it's a 1 CP power that gets burned to save your own butt. He's also saying that as an HR, anyone at anytime can "burn an xp" to reroll for a better result.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Idea - Hero Points

 

I've used a similar idea because of the way I like to play, i.e. IMO characters in fiction rarely substantially change their powers and abilities, except in the long term or (in comics) because the writer has changed.

 

I don't like characters going from 350 to 450 points too quickly. However, I do like to reward entertaining play.

 

Giving people the ability to swap character poitns for instant bonuses is a good way to ensure a heroic feel to the game, without massive character progression, whilst still handing out goodies.

 

I think that once players get used to the idea, they will be fine with it.

[gojira]

Re: Idea - Hero Points

 

Yeah, I'm saying "not burn, a permanent ability."

 

Buy Luck, only for re-rolls (-1/2) or so. This cost XP to buy once, but then you've got it permanently.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Idea - Hero Points

 

Yeah, I'm saying "not burn, a permanent ability."

 

Buy Luck, only for re-rolls (-1/2) or so. This cost XP to buy once, but then you've got it permanently.

 

Yes, but you might not have enough bought luck for all the bad rolls you are getting today

 

I didn't do it with re-rolls, I did it with 1 XP = 1 overall skill level for a phase, and you had to pony up in advance of the roll. I considered, but never implimented adding 2XP = 1 overall skill level for a turn.

 

I'm not keen on guaranteed improver re-rolls as they benefit some much more than others: if you have a DEX of 33, you are only going to miss occasionally, so being able to avoid those one off 'blow it rolls' is going to make you a killing machine.

 

It is also a bit of a game philosophy point: if you knew there was a good chance that you were going to succeed at critical junctures, would that reduce your enjoyment of the overall experience?

[Edsel]

Re: Idea - Hero Points

 

wyoldmayer, next time you are over here I'll have to let you take a look at the Heroic Action points in Pulp Hero.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Idea - Hero Points

 

It is also a bit of a game philosophy point: if you knew there was a good chance that you were going to succeed at critical junctures' date=' would that reduce your enjoyment of the overall experience?[/quote']

 

Well, that's the question, isn't it?

 

I've run pretty lengthy campaigns in four different superhero systems: V&V, Marvel, DC, and Hero. In fact, for one particular group, I've run, let's see, a single campaign that started in Marvel and moved to DC and then Hero; a separate campaign just in DC; and another separate campaign just in Hero. So this group - good guys, all - had experience with Marvel RPG (the old one, not the Saga or the other one), DC (the MEGS system, not the d6 one), and Hero. While they liked Hero a lot, they persistently complained about not being able to influence their rolls like they could in Marvel and DC.

 

After all, you can plan and plan and buy your stats and so on, but sometimes, in the heat of the moment, you need to be able to succeed on something, or at least up your chances of doing so. And, if we're being true to the high-heroics genre, it's often something you're not good at, or that you're heavily penalized at. Now, you can't plan for something like that. As a GM, I'm actually willing to give out slightly more experience to players just so that they will feel a little freer about spending it in-game to succeed in "crunch" moments on tasks that they're not actually likely to make when you do it by the book. Some players, one in particular I'm thinking of, generally avoided such things, although I pushed him into it sometimes (hey, spend for the roll or the world blows up, pal); still, even though he wound up with a bit of an edge in terms of xp spent for advancement, he missed out on the intangible benefits of actually, well, pulling off the cool shit in game. Other characters got benefits from that which can't be cashed out in terms of mechanics.

 

That said, I much prefer the DC version of spending for rolls, which allowed you to hedge your bets but not guarantee success - a natural 2 (on 2d10) still failed. Likewise with my proposed system, a natural 3 fails on hit rolls; I'd probably say that you can't "luck out" of a natural 3, just for the sake of balance. On the other hand, if PCs are going to blow precious character points on it, why not? I mostly run superhero games, and advancement's a lot less important; you're already really tough when you start the game, and some players really actually want to get the bad guys more than they want a new contact or gadget for the base. A reroll until you get a better result is something you can't buy... normally. Especially if that result was a '3', a result that, through no fault of your own, can ruin an entire night's work in a second. 1 CP is a small price to maintain the flow of the story.

 

As for cost-benefit on buying the die of Luck permanently, I think I could justify at least a few such times of burning a CP. After all, let's assume that if you have 1d6 of Luck with a Standard Effect, used for a reroll, you intend to save it until you get a '3' - after all, why waste your reroll when you might need it to really pull your fat of the fire? So, with that strategy in hand, let's assume that on some nights, you "miss your window." That is to say, you manage to make it through all your major encounters without ever really needing your reroll. I'd say that most players can make it through at least two out of three games like this - a few missed rolls are standard; it's not often that you really, really need a reroll on a truly critical attempt.

 

So, you only get any mileage out of your five point expenditure once every three adventures. That means, at 1 CP per reroll, it'd be more than 15 sessions before you actually spent more on individual rerolls than you would on buying the Luck outright. I'd only suggest buying the Luck outright in a long running game. Plus, as noted in my original proposal, some GMs won't let you do that, anyway - they may feel that outright having Luck isn't in everyone's concept.

 

However, for those who are worried, I sometimes allow my players to go ahead and change in CPs for Hero Points pre-emptively, "committing" their CPs to being spent as Hero Points before they actually spend them. I consider this a -1 advantage, so they get 2 for 1 when they do so. That means that you'd have to play 30 sessions before you came in even for buying that one die of Luck, rather than just spending Hero Points on rerolls. And that's not bad, really.

 

wyoldmayer' date=' next time you are over here I'll have to let you take a look at the Heroic Action points in Pulp Hero.[/quote']

 

Awesome! I love Pulp action type stuff (I always played Nile Empire Heroes back in the days of TORG), so I'm sure I'll enjoy it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Idea - Hero Points

 

My personal favorite of the various official or fan-created HEROized luck/fate options is Jesse Zwerling's (aka ArmlessTigerMan here on the boards) Action Points! (his exclamation point, not mine) which he created for his pulp campaign, Thrilling True Tales. Action Points! are handed out by the GM like Experience Points, but form a separate pool. Mechanically the AP! system is simple, colorful, has practical restrictions on when and how you can gain and use these points, and allows for automatic successes, which HERO tends to be hostile to. You can read about it on this webpage.

[1EyedJack]

Re: Idea - Hero Points

 

Techically once you buy a power its on your character sheet, you could use ep to buy up the number of charges and hero points would become very cheap do to the doubling of charges. Sure they would be expended but you could by alot of them fairly cheap. I did use a kind of expendable luck in my Star Wars campaign to simulate force points, and it worked well.

[Ner0Sputnik]

Re: Idea - Hero Points

 

I've been doing this for years. It's a great element to add to the game as long as you don't let it take over your game.

 

Also, it's VERY important to make sure they've put aside the points for this, they can't just buy them on credit. I had one player that was trying to do that on me. I asked where his Hero Point pool was on his character sheet. He didn't have one. I denied his request to "burn a point" on something.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Idea - Hero Points

 

This idea fits in MANY MANY different type of campaigns and is easy to work in regardless of systems. I usually do it with poker chips. A couple years ago, they were really starting to get on my nerves and I nuked them from my games, but they soon returned with slightly better guidelines.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Idea - Hero Points

 

Can I just commend wylodmayer on the discussion of the reasons behind rule decisions in games. I think this 'game philosophy' angle is really vital to an understanding of why rules operate and allows people a better handle on deciding if a rule is for them or not: rules are rarely right or wrong - but they almost always suit or do not suit an individual or a group, and sometimes knowing the thinking behind a rule really allows you to consider your position on it.

 

Excellent stuff.

[CourtFool]

Re: Idea - Hero Points

 

I think this 'game philosophy' angle is really vital to an understanding of why rules operate and allows people a better handle on deciding if a rule is for them or not: rules are rarely right or wrong - but they almost always suit or do not suit an individual or a group' date=' and sometimes knowing the thinking behind a rule really allows you to consider your position on it.[/quote']

 

An excellent point because...

 

It is also a bit of a game philosophy point: if you knew there was a good chance that you were going to succeed at critical junctures' date=' would that reduce your enjoyment of the overall experience?[/quote']

 

...no, but then I am a naratavist.