Modern Age vs Silver Age

[Brandi]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

But' date=' really, is it wise to have people who have [i']contempt[/i] for the genre writing a game that's even kinda superheroey?

 

Why not? These days, some of them write comics.

[nexus]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

There was much to be said for Aberrant, especially at the time. Great art and general presentation (a White Wolf strength), a fairly simple rule set still able to represent some fairly complex concepts, even some of the setting elements were fairly interesting. Unfortunately, it followed the classic White Wolf pattern if you used the setting and released adventures: Everything is an overly complex conspiracy the PCs can never unravel, NPCs completely out class the PCs so as to prevent the PCs from breaking the precious meta-plot, invincible NPCs appear to mock the PCs before heading off on their own much cooler adventures, etc. I particularly remember the color text with the "Power of a God" refrain combined with rules that made it clear that gods weren't all that powerful if built to spec and could under no circumstances actually change the world.

 

I got the feeling that a fair number of those involved in the project really did not like the idea of a Superheroes game, and thus the none too subtle "You're not Superheroes, you're weak gods in stretchy tights" meme.

 

All of that said, you could of course just scrap the meta-plot and modules and reshape the world as you chose, which I expect most fans did.

 

And lets not forget the classic "This is not the Superfriends" rant in the Player's Guide

 

On second thought, lets.

[OddHat]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

And lets not forget the classic the "This is not the Superfriends" rant in the Player's Guide

 

On second thought, lets.

 

Yup. Some writers tried to push against the tide, and there were plenty of "you don't have to use the metaplot" reminders, but ultimately the tug of war created a setting where, as written, your players were at best bit players in someone else's story. None of this is meant to trash the good parts of the setting and system; there was a lot to work with there.

[nexus]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

Yup. Some writers tried to push against the tide' date=' and there were plenty of "you don't have to use the metaplot" reminders, but ultimately the tug of war created a setting where, as written, your players were at best bit players in someone else's story. None of this is meant to trash the good parts of the setting and system; there was a lot to work with there.[/quote']

 

Our group made a pretty good game out of it we think but had to toss allot of the plot hammer stuff like the God Like Divas Mal, the whole lame sterilization conspiracy, the typical white wolf "Shades of Black" morality and "Thought you were playing heroes? Surprise!" elements.

[OddHat]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

Our group made a pretty good game out of it we think but had to toss allot of the plot hammer stuff like the God Like Divas Mal' date=' the whole lame sterilization conspiracy, the typical white wolf "Shades of Black" morality and "Thought you were playing heroes? Surprise!" elements.[/quote']

 

Yup. I pretty much trashed all the conspiracies and most of the "secrets", and used my own back story and character write ups (which is mostly my SOP with RPGs). In the end I was glad to get back to HERO; I still don't use the timeline, but there's much more setting material and many more NPCs I can drop into a campaign with minimal tweaking.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

As I mentioned, I trashed their metaplot in general, especially the bit-players feel and the lame sterilization thing, but I did kind of use their setting, in as much as I started from the event that (in my game) caused novas to appear and went with that. The whole first two sessions were spent with the PCs figuring out what to do about their new conditions. It was fun; the players got to witness firsthand, and take part in!, the shaping of the world's response to novas. I enjoyed the hell out of it.

 

On the whole, I prefer HERO's mechanics, but one thing I miss - as a player of "face men" characters - is Aberrant's Mega-Social characteristics. I finally had a really useful "face" character. I could do stuff in combat, even, like arrest enemy's actions in mid attack and so on. It rocked. It's just too much of a pain to create in HERO. Not that I'll stop trying...

[OddHat]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

On the whole, I prefer HERO's mechanics, but one thing I miss - as a player of "face men" characters - is Aberrant's Mega-Social characteristics. I finally had a really useful "face" character. I could do stuff in combat, even, like arrest enemy's actions in mid attack and so on. It rocked. It's just too much of a pain to create in HERO. Not that I'll stop trying...

 

You might want to check out the expanded rules on interaction skills in the Ultimate Skill. They add some detail to what the skills can do and how, which may encourage players and GMs to rely on them more. A good high PRE plus the full list of interaction skills and a MP of PRE Tricks can make for a pretty interesting character.

[Scott Baker]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

Could we call it the Lame Age?

 

Indeed.

 

Scott Baker

[Spidey88]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

As a bit of an aside:

 

I actually got my copy of HERO for $25 from a guy I ran into in my comic store about four (ish) years ago, who disliked the book so much he just wanted to get rid of it. See, he played Aberrant for a long time, and liked it a lot - he read HERO, disliked the flexibility (it's just too complex!) and the fact that heroes didn't automatically risk getting corrupted/damaged/whatever bloody thing it is that happens to heroes in Aberrant whenever they use their powers. I tried to defend my beloved HERO System, but to no avail - as far as he was concerned, it just wasn't as cool!

 

Oh well. His loss was my gain!

 

A very nice guy, mind you - but what the heck he was doing in a comic store, other than wanting to offload his book, I sure didn't know. "You want to play superheroes - but you want them getting crippled/going to the dark side when they use their powers? What's the point in being a superhero then?" is what was running through my head...

 

(I know very little about Aberrant. This reaction of mine was based entirely on this fellow's description - so forgive my ignorance if it is a decent game.)

 

 

 

On topic somewhat: The reason I like playing in a game with a Silver age feel (though usually with a hefty dose of Bronze, too) is the escapism. I like a world where good is mostly black and white - where I can feel like I've stopped the bad guys, I don't have to worry about the trail of bodies in my wake on my conscience (because no one really got hurt), and I feel like a real hero (assuming I acted like one and wasn't a complete bonehead), as opposed to a jerk with more ammunition than he knows what to do with.

 

I grew up on classic Spidey comics, and that's the sort of comics I like nowadays - I want to play in a world that's relatively sunny and bright (though not necessarily simple and black-and-white), where I feel like one man can make a difference and not be crippled, scarred, and maimed (physically and psychologically) in the process.

 

I don't read Punisher comics - I don't want to roleplay in his world very much either (if I'm supposed to be a superhero, anyway - if it's Shadowrun, sure). Superheroes scramble to stop the falling building, beat up the bad guy and his viking zombie men, and stop his giant pumpkin ray - they don't turn all of the above into bullet-riddled corpses, or say "the hell with it - I'm not getting paid enough".

 

I love post-apocalyptic games, but even with them I don't like overwhelming darkness and depression. I roleplay for fun - and I don't find hopelessness fun! I was in GURPS Supers game for a long time with some friends, but I stopped going because the GM seemed to make sure we never really did anything right (because we could never fully penetrate his subtle clues and obtuse logic, and we were always hit with very harsh consequences). Ugh - don't even get me started - there were other issues too, but even before they piled up, it just felt "off". Nothing was ever simple. Ever!

I'm a smart guy, but I can't read minds, especially the minds of fictional NPCs - I wanted to feel like I was doing something right once in a while, not feel like I was fighting the GM the whole way! Granted, that's how I think I'd feel in most Iron Age superhero situations - too real. I don't want to be the world's whipping boy!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

On topic somewhat: The reason I like playing in a game with a Silver age feel (though usually with a hefty dose of Bronze' date=' too) is the escapism. I like a world where good is mostly black and white - where I can feel like I've stopped the bad guys, I don't have to worry about the trail of bodies in my wake on my conscience (because no one [i']really[/i] got hurt), and I feel like a real hero (assuming I acted like one and wasn't a complete bonehead), as opposed to a jerk with more ammunition than he knows what to do with.

 

I grew up on classic Spidey comics, and that's the sort of comics I like nowadays - I want to play in a world that's relatively sunny and bright (though not necessarily simple and black-and-white), where I feel like one man can make a difference and not be crippled, scarred, and maimed (physically and psychologically) in the process.

 

I don't read Punisher comics - I don't want to roleplay in his world very much either (if I'm supposed to be a superhero, anyway - if it's Shadowrun, sure). Superheroes scramble to stop the falling building, beat up the bad guy and his viking zombie men, and stop his giant pumpkin ray - they don't turn all of the above into bullet-riddled corpses, or say "the hell with it - I'm not getting paid enough".

Exactly! I want my comic book campaign to have a healthy dose of escapism along with real heroism. The powers are cool, but to me Champions is about heroes and villains. That doesn't mean we'll never do a little social commentary, but on the whole I want things more in black-and-white (or four-color if you prefer) rather than myriad shades of gray. We don't have a single angsty or sociopathic PC in our campaign; on the whole they're remarkably well adjusted. (Who'd want to play a PC as messed up as they are in real life?)

[input.jack]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

But' date=' really, is it wise to have people who have [i']contempt[/i] for the genre writing a game that's even kinda superheroey?

 

 

I ask the same thing about whether its wise to let writers who have contempt for the genre write the comics. (Millar, Im looking at YOU)

[input.jack]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

Exactly! I want my comic book campaign to have a healthy dose of escapism along with real heroism. The powers are cool' date=' but to me Champions is about heroes and villains. That doesn't mean we'll never do a little social commentary, but on the whole I want things more in black-and-white (or four-color if you prefer) rather than myriad shades of gray. [/quote']

 

 

I agree completely

 

My current game is based on the DCAU Justice League feel, and so far the Players and I all really like it! Superheroes are Super AND HEROES!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

Superheroes are Super AND HEROES!

As my buddy Mentor is fond of saying, "Superhero is a compound word."

[CSgeekHero]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

I don't have much time today, but I just wanted to say DOH!

 

I went digging to find my copy of Champions for Fred that I got in 2003 and there was the timeline that people have pointed out earlier. I haven't looked at that book since '05, but I need it as I now begin to try and build a campaign.

 

To the current topic, I would rather prefer things with a late Silver/ early Bronze mix. I agree with Trebuchet and Spidey88. I like having escapism in all my games; it makes playing more fun. However, I don't like going overboard with the humor to the point of being like the 1960's Batman stuff.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

Well said, Trebuchet and Spidey.

 

I tend to agree with you guys, although I *do* like exploring some ambiguous morality in my games sometimes. Still, even at my "darkest" (barring Dark Champions games) I tend to be Bronze at worst. Yeah, in my games, there are cynical heroes who are only in it for the cash or whatever, sometimes, but these people are the exceptions who prove the rule. Even in my games where I tend to run with the idea that "you have to be a somewhat damaged personality to try and put on tights and fight crime," most of them are **sincere**... if crazy.

 

Plus, impenetrable plots and lack of ability to have an effect on the game world is a problem for any GM. Players need "payoff" points! Even in a game like Vampire, PCs need to occassionally need to feel as if they have done something. We had a GM who was just plain BAD about crud like that. He ran Shadowrun for us just a few times, and he was horrible about throwing out pointless, go-nowhere clues that weren't actually supposed to lead us to anything so much as signal to us that things we couldn't impact were happening just "off screen." He had the annoying tendency for his generic, minor NPCs to suddenly sprout enormous EGO and PRE (in HERO terms) to resist intimidation and interrogation attempts that might move the plot forward faster than *he* wanted it to move. It was crap.

[Peregrine]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

Cause the "Modern Age" sucks.

 

What? You asked!

 

Dont believe me? Read "Civil War" and "Identity Crisis".

 

Better yet, don't. Save yourself the SAN loss...

[Peregrine]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

Could we call it the Lame Age?

 

The "Suck-Age"?

[Scott Baker]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

The "Suck-Age"?

LOL

[Spidey88]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence, guys. It's nice to know so many others like a healthy dose of idealism to go with their angst and conspiracies!

 

I agree with you compeltely, wylodmayer, in that shades of grey are good to have around, as long as the heroes aren't mired in them all the time - Bronze Age complexity and social commentary coupled with Silver Age enthusiasm and lightheartedness is a pretty tasty blend, as far as I'm concerned.

 

In my current campaign, my buddy's character (see "Character Post: Ashley" for details) is a former supervillain (a pretty nasty one, too) who's been given a serious attitude adjustment by a powerful psychic. He's generally a wiseass jerk (think "House" mixed with a little Deadpool for flavour), but even he tries to do the right thing - well, eventually, anyway... He's a good contrast for the other characters, and his mouthiness often leads to some amusing situations! He's planted right on the edge of my "darkness" threshold for the game - I've already said "no friggin' way" to a character concept that pushed past it. Ashley's a right bastard sometimes, but he's a right bastard with a fairly strong moral core - and that's the difference in my mind. Actions speak louder than words, after all!

[Kristopher]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

The golden age started with the release of Action Comics #1 and the debut of Superman in 1938. That age ended around 1951-52. The silver age began with the Barry Allen Flash and the restructure of DC in 1959 [though many consider the debut of FF #1 in 1961 to be the start].

 

Most people consider the death of Gwen Stacy in 1973 to be the end of the silver age and the start of the bronze age [this was expanded in 1975 with Giantsize X-Men #1 that introduced the new X-men]. The bronze age lasted until 1986 with Darknight Returns and 1987 with Watchmen. That was the birth of the iron age.

 

The iron age lasted until the mid 1990s. Some say that the Death of Superman in 1993 was one of the last events of the iron age. I consider it to be around 1996 with the transition of Image Comics [image was eventually sold to DC in 1999].

 

That puts the beginning of the modern age around 1993-1997. At that point killing and death no longer became major focuses of story telling. I see the modern age as lasting until around 2005. Since Identity Crisis, House of M, Infinite Crisis, and Civil war comics have again taken a darker tone with characters dying often all under the banner of supposed realism. This age hasn't been named. I just called it the steel age.

 

I'd call it the Rust Age.

 

(EDIT: Someone beat me to it.)

[Kristopher]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

Yeah, that's the feeling I got, and intel from a guy I knew who was working there about the time it was being developed indicates that's correct.

 

Funny thing, from some of the in-house Aberrant games I heard about, I'd never want to play a superhero game - or possibly any game - being run by the White Wolf guys.

 

I mean, I'm all for new takes on the genre, and when I ran it, it certainly wasn't a typical superhero game. But, really, is it wise to have people who have contempt for the genre writing a game that's even kinda superheroey?

 

I wouldn't want to be in a Vampire game or any other game run by the self-important, pompous, condescending jerks that make up the majority at White Wolf.

[casualplayer]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

I would consider most current mainstream comics to be the Noir Age, or Dark Age.

 

Every White Wolf game's core concept is "power corrupts." Even Exalted. if they could ever swing the license they are ready to go to represent the burden of the One Ring. It can be a fun role-playing tightrope to walk and it can be an excuse for emo players to fly their freak flag.

[Kristopher]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

I would consider most current mainstream comics to be the Noir Age, or Dark Age.

 

Every White Wolf game's core concept is "power corrupts." Even Exalted. if they could ever swing the license they are ready to go to represent the burden of the One Ring. It can be a fun role-playing tightrope to walk and it can be an excuse for emo players to fly their freak flag.

 

Sometimes it seems like the core concept is "everything corrupts, including being alive, and being dead". It's so overbearing that our old group just kinda said "that's nice" and got on with playing the game without it. Not every character is so psychologically/intellectually/morally weak.

[Spence]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

Could we call it the Lame Age?

 

"The Rust Age"

 

The "Suck-Age"?

 

Hmmm..... so many good choices...

[Spence]

Re: Modern Age vs Silver Age

 

Exactly! I want my comic book campaign to have a healthy dose of escapism along with real heroism. The powers are cool' date=' but to me Champions is about heroes and villains. That doesn't mean we'll never do a little social commentary, but on the whole I want things more in black-and-white (or four-color if you prefer) rather than myriad shades of gray. We don't have a single angsty or sociopathic PC in our campaign; on the whole they're remarkably well adjusted. (Who'd want to play a PC as messed up as they are in real life?) [/quote']

 

I agree completely

 

My current game is based on the DCAU Justice League feel, and so far the Players and I all really like it! Superheroes are Super AND HEROES!

 

As my buddy Mentor is fond of saying' date=' "Superhero is a compound word." [/quote']

 

All I can say is