[Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

[jkwleisemann]

In a fight between Firewing and Gravitar, who would end up winning?

 

On the one hand, Gravitar has a wider variety of things she can do, and significantly higher defenses. But, on the other hand, Firewing has the edge in offense, and a higher base CV. They're simialr in terms of strength, and you could just about eke a Heroic level character out of the difference between them in points.

 

So, would it be a matter of luck/they'd probably end up tying for all intents and purposes, or am I missing something big?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Ponderance....

 

Gravitar is more powerful by most objective measures. The problem she has, is Firewing has an NND that can Stun her. . . and he goes first.

 

If he forgoes using his Blistering Heat attack for a couple rounds, he's screwed.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Ponderance....

 

I'd... say that counts as 'something I missed.' Ah well.

 

Ah well - in penance for that, and to give the thread something to do, I present another ponderance:

 

How big a spatula would the heroes need after Bulldozer and Gravitar meet for the first time?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Ponderance....

 

not much of one. She'd compress him into a tiny, but heavy glob.

[Balabanto]

Re: Ponderance....

 

Actually, Firewing gets clobbered. Gravitar will simply missile deflect the NND. This can go on FOREVER. If she can deflect 2 NNDs, she wins. She can REFLECT only physical missiles. She can DEFLECT anything. Look at the point cost on the power. It's her 16 vs his 15+ range penalties. So on phase 2, since her missile deflection is still active until her action, since she doesn't have to re-abort unless she chooses to, Gravitar hits Firewing with...

 

100 STR TK, AND puts him in a 10/10 Force Wall. That's right. She can do both, because Telekinesis is automatically indirect. All she has to do is close the distance to 4", put Firewing in her TK and erect the force wall in front of her. Then, it's 20d6 of squeezy goodness until the fight's over. Then, once Gravitar has Firewing in her clutches, she'll capture him and romance him. Being one of the most powerful supervillains on earth is one thing. Being in control of the most powerful baby ever....? Well...that's cake icing.

 

Say hello to Heavy Fire, the most absurd character ever! No. I'm not gonna build it. I'm not even gonna try.....

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Ponderance....

 

Hmm... you might be right. Anybody know if there's an official call on that? It *looks* right, it just reads awkwardly.

If that's right, then yeah - Firewing's screwed unless he keeps it up long enough to out-Phase her. Since he's got that SPD 7 instead of a SPD 6, he *might* get a shot through when she tries to deflect two in a row without catching her breath, so to speak. Of course, she *will* be kept busy knocking them out of the air until he exhausts his END (or tries something else, at which point she demonstrates the folly of being a flyer against a gravity manipulator), so that'll take... about 2 turns of solid Deflecting that she'll have to keep it up without missing *any* of those rolls, or him getting lucky and getting a shot through.

So he's not *totally* toast because of that.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Ponderance....

 

*checks*

 

Wow, your right. The costing works out for physical missiles only applying just to the Reflection.

 

The problem becomes, whether Gravitar *knows* she has to deflect that attack, and whether Firewing knows he has to use that one from the getgo. Given that Gravitar has KS: Superhuman World, and Firewing doesn't, Gravitar more likely to come out ahead on that question.

[Balabanto]

Re: Ponderance....

 

Okay. If he's faster than me, and I have Missile deflect vs. anything, I use this tactic anyway.

 

He's a single opponent. If he turns out to be slower than me, I fry him on phase 2. If he turns out to be faster than me, I'm safe.

 

Plus, remember, by the time phase 6 happens, Gravitar will be something like 34" away. That's the -8 range category (You half move away every phase once he's in the land of squeezy goodness) . Add that to the half OCV for a grabbed character, and his chances of landing a shot are OCV 7 vs DCV 18 on 4 (Add range penalties), and a whopping DCV of 20 on phase 6 or 7. (These include range penalties.) Yes, he can spread, but if he spreads that much, he'll get hosed. And don't forget, Gravitar can move him into other exciting objects, like high tension cables that deal 5d6 RKA, for even more ridiculous amounts of damage once he's in the cables and returning to the squeezy goodness.

[MitchellS]

Re: Ponderance....

 

Actually' date=' Firewing gets clobbered. Gravitar will simply missile deflect the NND. This can go on FOREVER. If she can deflect 2 NNDs, she wins. She can REFLECT only physical missiles. She can DEFLECT anything. Look at the point cost on the power. It's her 16 vs his 15+ range penalties. So on phase 2, since her missile deflection is still active until her action, since she doesn't have to re-abort unless she chooses to, Gravitar hits Firewing with...[/quote']

Once you're into phase 2 if she deflects again she loses her phase 2 action. Multiple missile deflections only work in the initial phase or subsequent segments. The rules state "before his next phase" not before the next action. So Gravitar can deflect on phase 12 and segment 1 but on phase 2 she's required to again use her action to deflect Firewing's phase 2 attack. That means Firewing's 7 speed is going to let him tag her once every turn.

[Balabanto]

Re: Ponderance....

 

No, she doesn't. Missile deflection lasts until your next action. You don't have to take it. You're considered missile deflecting until your action resets. That rolls over, because Missile deflection is constant, not instant.

[MitchellS]

Re: Ponderance....

 

No' date=' she doesn't. Missile deflection lasts until your next action. You don't have to take it. You're considered missile deflecting until your action resets. That rolls over, because Missile deflection is constant, not instant.[/quote']

The rules state very clearly that it's an "attack action" and that it only lasts "before his next phase." Rather then debate the point endlessly [which so often happens on the Hero forum] if you want the true answer go and ask the man who gets paid to know the answers.

[Balabanto]

Re: Ponderance....

 

You don't need to re-abort once a constant power is ON. Force Field, Force Wall, and every other constant power in the game work this way. Why should Missile Deflection be different?

 

When it says "His next phase," His next phase SHOULD mean "When he acts next," not the phase in which he goes. Technically, as far as I've been led to understand in EVERY campaign I've played and GMed in for 26 years, it's not your phase until your action. Firewing's phase 2 goes on Dex 30, SPD 6. Gravitar's phase doesn't start until Dex 25, SPD 6. There SHOULD be no need to abort a second time, since the character has ALREADY aborted.

 

Now, you COULD argue that Firewing's heat NND is not visible to sight until after the first couple tries and you really know what to look for. Then she couldn't deflect it and the question is moot, but that's a SFX call based on what the GM says.

[MitchellS]

Re: Ponderance....

 

The only argument I am making is that you can only take ONE attack action per phase. Missile deflection is an attack action, as such if you do it in your phase you cannot make any other attack action that phase. You can't both deflect and attack in the same phase. That would be completely counter to the rules. As I stated, it's pointless to debate it. If you want the true answer then ask Steve. It's never too late to fix 26 year old problems.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Ponderance....

 

Missile Deflection is an attack action, but it can be used to deflect multiple attacks at an increasing penalty. Gravitar will be able to attempt her deflect on just about every attack Firewing throws, but doing this will put her on the defensive. There's no opening for her to attack, so she's just killing time until she blows a roll and Firewing takes her down. Of course, Firewing won't be able to throw that NND continuously...he'll be out of END in about a turn and a half. It'll come down to the two circling each other ready to abort to defense when the other attacks.

 

I call a draw. A whole lot of property damage and not much damage to either combatant.

[MitchellS]

Re: Ponderance....

 

Firewing's an honorable foe. He's not going to start the game with the NND or even his biggest attack against an unknown female. He's going to attack 7 times in the first turn and probably get deflected 6 of them. On the 7th he'll see that his 14d6 attack isn't enough to hurt her.

 

For the second turn he'll upgrade to the 12d6 AP. That'll get 10 through her FF and FW but she'll recover it at the end of 12. That'll cost him 28 End but he recovers 25 of it.

 

On turn 3 he will go with the NND. An average roll will stun Gravitar on phase 12, meaning she'll lose her phase 2 deflect. Firewing will hit her with the 16d6 eb on phase 2 to save end. That'll stun her again.

 

Turn 3, Phase 12 takes 35 from NND, recovers 20. She's at 45 stun and stunned.

Turn 4, Phase 2 takes 56 from 16d6, ED is 24, she takes 32. She's at 12 stun and stunned.

Turn 4, Phase 4 takes 56 from 16d6, ED is 24, she takes 32. She's at -20 stun and stunned.

 

If Gravitar follows the "deflect" strategy she loses in 3.5 turns assuming Firewing hits and she manages to deflect each round.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ponderance....

 

Actually' date=' Firewing gets clobbered. Gravitar will simply missile deflect the NND. This can go on FOREVER. If she can deflect 2 NNDs, she wins. She can REFLECT only physical missiles. She can DEFLECT anything. Look at the point cost on the power. It's her 16 vs his 15+ range penalties. So on phase 2, since her missile deflection is still active until her action[/quote']

 

Wow, did that cause a debate. Since I have a rule book in front of me for a change:

 

a Phase is a Segment in which a character can act' date=' i.e., perform an Action.[/quote']

 

Thus, all of Segment 2 is one of Gravitar's Phases. Her Phase does not begin at her DEX, but at the very start of Segment 2.

 

Performing an Attack Action brings a character's Phase to an end - he can perform no other Actions after performing an Attack Action.

 

Thus, if Gravitar performs an Attack Action at any time in her Phase - that is, any time in segment 2 - it is the last thing she can do in that Phase.

 

If a character Blocks and/or assigns Combat Skill Levels in one Phase, and in his next Phase declares a Held Action, do the CV modifiers from the Block and/or the CSLs remain in effect until he takes his Held Action?

 

No. The Block would not still remain in effect. Once a character’s next Phase starts, bonuses from maneuvers ends. Similarly, any previously assigned CSLs remain assigned as they were until the character’s next Phase begins, but he can change them (or simply leave them as they are) as a Zero-Phase Action before declaring his Held Action. The fact that a character chooses to “hold” rather than to take direct action doesn’t mean his Phase hasn’t occurred — he’s just delaying taking direct action.

 

The start of the character's phase ends the Block. It should also end the Deflection, logically. We have estalished that the Phase started at the very beginning pf Segment 2. I must therefore conclude that Gravitar either restarts the Deflect in Ph 2, or she doesn't get to deflect.

 

We'll se if Steve agrees - posted to rules Q's./

[Zed-F]

Re: Ponderance....

 

If each of them goes in cold, then advantage Gravitar. She has overconfident and will NOT be missile deflecting most of the time, unless she comes to learn that there is a good reason to do so. If Firewing uses his Searing Heat attack on her and it hurts, then she'll start deflecting attacks coming at her that have the same SFX -- and usually the target of an attack can tell the difference between different kinds of attacks coming their way. Otherwise, she'll take whatever he dishes out and give him a smackdown he doesn't have the defenses to withstand.

 

If one of them goes in knowing more about their opponent -- e.g. what attacks will work best, where to find him/her, etc. -- then advantage to whoever knows more.

 

If both of them know about each other, then I'd still give Gravitar the advantage. She doesn't have to trade blows with Firewing, she can use the environment to her advantage. An AoE slab of wall flying Firewing's way is going to block that Searing Heat attack and still do damage when it hits.

[MitchellS]

Re: Ponderance....

 

Gravitar has the advantage of the KS. She'll have a basic idea that Firewing is honorable and likes a challenge. Firewing's going to start off small with his 14d6 attack not knowing whether Gravitar is a worth opponent or not. She'll be counting on that. She'll suck up his phase 12 attack and then nail him with her 20d6 TK. Firewing will need to use flight with his strength to try and break out [it's about an even chance].

 

Gravitar needs to keep him busy and away from attacking because once he hits with the NND she's stunned and will go out before she can recover. If she can maintain the TK on 12, 2, 4, and 6 she'll win. If Firewing gets out before then an hits with the NND he'll win. IMO Gravitar can only lose by taking the deflect defensive stance [which I don't think her overconfidence will allow her to do anyway].

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ponderance....

 

We'll see if Steve agrees - posted to rules Q's.

 

Reply received - I must have missed a reference one page earlier, which states that one's phase begins at one's DEX. As such, mechanically, Gravitar could (abort to) Missile Deflect on Phase 12, deflect again at Firewing's higher DEX at Phase 2, then use her own phase 2 action to attack Gravitar.

 

Whether that sequence of events is in character for her personality and disadvantages is open to debate, but the mechanical answer, at least, is that this works under the rules.

 

I suppose the answer for Firewing is to hold his Phase 2 action until Gravitar attacks, then go for the opposed DEX roll to fire off his NND now that she's stopped missile deflecting, but before she attacks him. That's about as consistent with Firewing's personalty as Gravitar adopting a primarily defensive strategy, but both tactics should be mechanicallly sound.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ponderance....

 

Hmmm...a 1 DEX Missile Deflector seems to enjoy a substantial advantage. Abort phase 12 to deflect. Make your rolls (at the accumulating -2 penalty) until your next phase. Attack at 1 DEX, then abort your next phase to start deflecting again.

 

That poor sucker with a 35 DEX has to wait the rest of the segment with no deflection to protect him! [so, what limitation will you give me for DEX that doesn't move the character's action forward? Even a -0 lets the tactic work...]

[MitchellS]

Re: Ponderance....

 

It is, IMO, a bad ruling by Steve. It allows someone to effectively have 3 half phase actions in one phase. It also takes away any advantage of having a higher initiative due to dex; effectively giving too much advantage to people with lower dex scores. I think Steve's Dark Champions preference roots are showing through there.

 

It'd be more logical to tie missile deflection to block in that the person who deflects can go first the next phase. That'd be less imbalancing then allowing someone to have multiple attack actions in the same phase, IMO. Just one more "Steve Rule" on my list to ignore.

[Susano]

Re: Ponderance....

 

The easy answer is "Who's book is this happening in?"

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Ponderance....

 

It is, IMO, a bad ruling by Steve. It allows someone to effectively have 3 half phase actions in one phase. It also takes away any advantage of having a higher initiative due to dex; effectively giving too much advantage to people with lower dex scores. I think Steve's Dark Champions preference roots are showing through there.

 

It'd be more logical to tie missile deflection to block in that the person who deflects can go first the next phase. That'd be less imbalancing then allowing someone to have multiple attack actions in the same phase, IMO. Just one more "Steve Rule" on my list to ignore.

 

 

How is anyone getting three half phase actions in a phase? And how is giving them the ability to go first next phase going to rebalance anything? And how is it justifiable SFX wise?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Ponderance....

 

Hmmm...a 1 DEX Missile Deflector seems to enjoy a substantial advantage. Abort phase 12 to deflect. Make your rolls (at the accumulating -2 penalty) until your next phase. Attack at 1 DEX, then abort your next phase to start deflecting again.

 

That poor sucker with a 35 DEX has to wait the rest of the segment with no deflection to protect him! [so, what limitation will you give me for DEX that doesn't move the character's action forward? Even a -0 lets the tactic work...]

 

Low DEX gives the advantage to defense, high DEX gives the advantage to offense.

 

Is it unbalanced? I don't think so. The alternative would be almost every fight would be won by the character with the higher DEX.

 

Currently there is still action economy to consider; the 1 DEX defender is defending at the expense of taking offensive actions. Its also an imperfect defense as it a) can fail doesnt protect vs melee or most AoE's c) has a degrading probability of success.

 

Of course the model you present is valid outside of Missile Deflection as well, and when taken as a whole it's an interesting dynamic that enriches the tame. It means that there is more than one viable (hit first, hit hardest) approach to combat.

 

Relative SPD between the attacker and defender is the real telling metric. If the defender has at least one more SPD than the opponent and can maintain an infallible defense against each of the attackers actions and then make one good attack per TURN they have the edge. If not the attacker does.

[Enforcer84]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

IIRC "Phase" means next action, "Segment" means next second in the Turn.

 

As to the actual combat, I give it to whomever the writers want to win...er, or MitchellS' example is a good one too.

 

 

How bout updated Ironclad vs Durak?