Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

[Remjin]

Okay, so here I am, thinking about various stupidities... it occupies most of my time, really, but I had what i thought might be a neat idea...

 

Now, often, in certain types of games, its hard to play a martial artist without somehow compensating for certain lacks. So say you want to play a shaolin monk type, but with machine-guns and cars coming at you, or even energy blasts and otherwise, you're at a bit of a disadvantage. You want to be able to do your schtick, and you want to fight another man on that basic human level to have a sort of "fair fight." I'm not going to go into conceptual ideas on the character that much, except that the entire point is to force a fair fight of sorts without any of the extras getting in the way.

 

Obviously, taking a 100 point martial artist in a 350 point world would be hard. Giving him mystical/technical/mutant abilitiies to make it happen wouldn't be so bad. =)

 

So the concept is this: defense powers that negate all except Normal Characteristic Maxima (referred to as NCM from hereon), skills, etc. so that this one character can fight everyone at that basic level, forcing someone to depend on their skill and human abilities to face against this character. How would you guys go about this?

 

I was thinking about stuff like Armor at high levels with the disadvantage of "Only versus damage above X" where X is defined as about as much damage as a normal human could do...

 

Perhaps a suppress versus characteristics above NCM? Some help would be appreciated, this is mostly a mental exercise, but its an idea I find fascinating... any help would be appreciated.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Hmm....

 

I'd say Drains, myself.

 

Drain against any characteristic (at once?), only to reduce to NCM.

 

Similarly, Drains to eliminate various powers.

 

I'd look at a character (can't remember her name to save my life) from 4th Ed's Creatures of the Night, a character whose entire schtick was to eliminate those pesky, chaotic superpowers. She should have some ideas there.

 

Character name? The Great Equalizer.

[casualplayer]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Damage Reduction vs. non-Real World weaponry or characters without NCM. Also levels with Roll with Blow/Dive for Cover can work.

[Remjin]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Hmm....

 

I'd say Drains, myself.

 

Drain against any characteristic (at once?), only to reduce to NCM.

 

Similarly, Drains to eliminate various powers.

 

I'd look at a character (can't remember her name to save my life) from 4th Ed's Creatures of the Night, a character whose entire schtick was to eliminate those pesky, chaotic superpowers. She should have some ideas there.

 

Character name? The Great Equalizer.

 

Ooooh... now if I can only find it without having to buy an old book... =)

[Metaphysician]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Honestly, its probably too hard a concept to get to work mechanically. You'd be better off just having the shaolin guy have super kung fu: high characteristics, combat luck, martial arts and DCs, etc.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Maybe hard, but personally, I think the concept rocks myself.

 

Honorable martial artist who barely registers on the radar of anybody in the superheroic world who solidly kicks the tail of any super he comes across - watch everybody panic and try to figure out how the blazes he pulled it off.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Part of the problem is, lets say you do it with a nice big Area Suppress.

 

What does it Suppress? Does it effect skill levels? Superskills? Martial Arts DCs above a certain level? Talents?

 

It'd take a very strange definition indeed to convince me it should somehow cause, say, Nightwind to forget how to does his YengTao maneuvers.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Those, certainly not. I'd say that what the concept would involve limiting would be the following:

 

Stats above NCM (as stated in the concept itself).

Non-equipment based powers.

Any equipment based powers that aren't normal technology.

Anything above the "normal skill maximum" suggested in TUSK.

Maybe bonus DC.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

First of all... How is he "equaling the playing field" by eliminating all of his opponent's powers except normal characteristics? Is he also adding Martial Arts and the appropriate skills to their repertoire in lieu of their former powers (up to the point total of your Martial Artist's)? Sounds like he's altering the playing field to dramatically tip in his favor.

 

Second, a Martial Artist who walks around with a gigantic power that reduces his opponents to normal people (including Power Armor, Mutations, Inherent Powers, Divine Powers... etc) is hardly normal himself. In fact, he's about as powerful as any single character I've encountered... Especially if he fights as part of a group.

 

Honestly, it's probably best if you build a Martial Artist up to the point that you feel you can be affective within the rules. Utilizing skills like Dive for Cover, Defense Maneuver, Dodge, Rapid Attack and a creative use of your environment instead of an "equalizing power" will make the game much more challenging. Spending the remaining points of the original 350 will simply allow you to flesh the character out with non-combat skills and perks.

[Clonus]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Yes, well like most people this guy considers it "fair" when he has the upper hand. But, more importantly, how does he get the upper hand? Given that he's a martial artist, I suggest giving him the knowledge of the sooper-secret pressure points that block use of superpowers.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Personally, I don't *think* that Remjin was saying that MA's are inherently inferior and weak.

 

I think, rather, that he intended to present an interesting character concept - one who, personally, has nothing more than human strength, skill, and ability... except for the ability to make sure that nobody *else* has anything more than human strength, skill, and ability as well. And as that - as a concept for a single character - I find it interesting.

 

It 'levels the playing field' by reducing things to a matter of skill and training, rather than superpowers against the skill and training.

 

Is is "fair"? Not necessarily. Because, as has been pointed out, it doesn't *give* them his skill and training. However, on the right character - from the *character* perspective - does it make it fair-er...?

 

Consider, if you will, the character who might end up wanting abilities like this. A martial artist who finds himself highly trained, very capable, but without the pseudo-mystic abilities of your average super-MA. He lacks any rDef that isn't part of a suit of armor. He lacks anything beyond baseline skills, NCM stats, MA's, and some combat skill levels - he is, for all intents and purposes, a high powered *heroic* character.

 

He's human. He's *mortal*. But here he is, trying to survive in a world where you've got people who *sneeze* more powerful attacks than he's got. Where lumbering oxes with big fists can dish out more damage than he can dream of - not through skill, that he wouldn't begrudge them, but simply because they were trampled by a radioactive wildebeest.

 

There's no honor in that sort of combat, at least not that he can see. Honor is in testing your *skill* against the *skill* of another. Your *training*. Not whether or not you live near a nuclear power plant. Not whether or not you found somebody to give you the blessings of Kalamazoo the Great.

 

Therefore, he breaks his own principles... a little. He seeks out, and learns, a technique that will allow him to reduce the equation to skill against skill. He uses it against superbeings - and it is only useful against superbeings, because normal people cannot be affected by it.

 

To his way of thinking - that honor is skill vs skill - this is fair. He has a power that he can use, granted, and he uses it freely. But it only works against others who 'cheat.'

 

If, having been affected by this technique, they have enough power and skill left to defeat him, then they do so. Then they have earned the *right* to do so, because they have the *skill* to overcome him. They are the greater warrior, and they have proven so honorably.

 

He can move on to the next superpowered Goliath who thinks he's skilled when he's merely powerful.

 

*That* is interesting. To me.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

There's no honor in that sort of combat, at least not that he can see. Honor is in testing your *skill* against the *skill* of another. Your *training*. Not whether or not you live near a nuclear power plant. Not whether or not you found somebody to give you the blessings of Kalamazoo the Great.

 

Therefore, he breaks his own principles... a little. He seeks out, and learns, a technique that will allow him to reduce the equation to skill against skill. He uses it against superbeings - and it is only useful against superbeings, because normal people cannot be affected by it.

 

To his way of thinking - that honor is skill vs skill - this is fair. He has a power that he can use, granted, and he uses it freely. But it only works against others who 'cheat.'

 

If, having been affected by this technique, they have enough power and skill left to defeat him, then they do so. Then they have earned the *right* to do so, because they have the *skill* to overcome him. They are the greater warrior, and they have proven so honorably.

 

He can move on to the next superpowered Goliath who thinks he's skilled when he's merely powerful.

 

*That* is interesting. To me.

Interesting, yes.

 

This could be a very fun "Cain" type character. A lone warrior who travels the world seeking out those who possess, and use, great power on lesser men. He confronts such despots and breaks them down to the level of their victims... Then, breaks their jaws, hopefully teaching them a lesson they wont soon forget.

 

Sounds like fun!

 

But, in my experience as a Champions player, people gather to play Champions in groups of 3+ players. What if "Great Equalizer" is a member of a team and fights along side Corporal Punishment; Power Armor avenger extrodinaire, whom is built on the original 350 point campaign totals? Now, every time "Great Equalizer" gets into HTH with a villain the villain's powers are eiminated and POW! CORPORAL PUNISHMENT RAINS DOWN RETROBUTION... on a sitting duck.

 

Obviously "Great Equalizer" isn't going to care. He's already stacked the playing field in his favor by taking the villain's weapon away (be it a real weapon, strength, whatever) and lording over him as an obvious superior. Not too much honor there.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Well, obviously elements like that are going to be issues.

 

Which, of course, is why he might work better as a villain/mercenary sort of opponent.

 

Of course, as a PC, he'd need to work better with others before he'd work - or the team would need to come up with strategies that wouldn't make (a) him the team's de-buffer and nothing more or ( the others into the executioners.

 

Of course, other ways to balance that out might be to use a Suppress - which instantly cuts out when he stops maintaining it - or to limit it in such a way that it only works against him.

 

Or just give him the psych lims (I'd say that *Honorable* covers it right there) that would leave him refusing to use that ability against villains if the others aren't going to let the contest play out the way it should from there.

 

After all - there's more to the guy than "walking around, finding supers, depowering them, and punching them in the head." If there *isn't* more than that, then he's not a particularly interesting character. But by adding in things like the honor aspect - and its attendant unwillingness to use it 'dishonorably' by de-buffing his foes for the rest of the team to reduce to a fine red spray - it helps to balance out the parts that make him a "doesn't play well with others" sorts.

 

At least I think it does. *shrugs*

[Haven Walkur]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

I think the original post was more concerned with how one would go about constructing this sort of power, than whether a character who uses this sort of power is a mean, nasty, unfair bad person. :-P

 

I have no idea how the effect would be built -- short of GM fiat -- but I do think the concept is a fascinating one, and the psychology behind it particularly intriguing.

 

I find myself wondering how well Hidden Dragon, my LSH martial artist, would stack up against him. I think she was more-or-less straight skills and skill levels -- I believe her only super-power was the ability to become invisible -- but I suspect I'd be reminded the hard way once she got into it with the Great Equalizer, and any other "taken-for-granted" powers I'd forgotten about stopped working....

[Remjin]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

GoldenAge, you bring up very good points as to the merits of this character in a team. Honestly, I hadn't even thought of it in that regard, I was wholly concerned with it as a solo concept.

 

I'd rather the whole thing be built so that "superpowers" didn't effect HIM, and him only, rather than suppress it entirely. jkwleisemann pretty much is describing the entirety of the concept superbly. =)

 

Its the whole idea that THIS guy can fight supers at his level. Sure, of course he's kind of got an advantage in that respect, that's what he's trained his entire life for, but its that idea of taking away the "cheat" that most supers have in being a hero/villain and bringing them down to the base idea of skill versus skill. Even with the suppression/ineffectiveness, they're being brought down to human levels. The character itself is not going to be maximum human potential, 20s in every stat, etc. He's going to be tip-top, but not THE top of everything.

 

The whole breaking it down to skill versus skill is what I'm looking for, and I just don't know exactly how to do it. I mean, can you suppress "only versus this guy"? Kind of wierd. Plus, it'd probably be hugely expensive to buy as far as powers go. =)

 

This is mostly an exercise in a concept, and how to do it, perhaps as an infuriating NPC later or something of that sort, where the points won't really matter, and really... he can still be defeated by many a hero who has any real level of skill. A supers level martial artist will wipe him out by sheer volume of skill levels and otherwise... but he could possibly give him a run for the money or even humble a basic brick or blaster, etc.

 

Haven Walkur does make a good point.. I am looking for HOW, though, rather than WHY. =) I do appreciate JKWeisalmann's standing up for the idea, though, and thanks for the compliments on the concept.

[Marketeer]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

One thing to look at storywise is that many characters with superhuman stats should, conceptually, be well below NCM after theis powers are drained.

 

Take for example a character who is superstrong, but is not obviously bulky, muscular or large. Such a character probably should not be at the upper limit of NCM after his or her "super" strength has been nullified. As a good visual, picture Clark Kent after forfeiting his powers in the Christopher Reeve's Superman movies.

 

This throws a medium-sized wrench in the mechanics, but is probably worth considering since part of the point of the character is the "feel".

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

I'd say that what the concept would involve limiting would be the following:

 

Stats above NCM (as stated in the concept itself).

Non-equipment based powers.

Any equipment based powers that aren't normal technology.

Anything above the "normal skill maximum" suggested in TUSK.

Maybe bonus DC.

 

Setting aside the issue of whether this power should ever be allowed , and treating it as an intellectual exercise: my suggestion for the cheapest, simplest mechanic for this effect would be Extra-Dimensional Movement, to a "dimension" where the target character would be under all the above restrictions, Usable As Attack. How it's defended against would really depend on how you define the SFX of the ability.

 

Transform could also do this, but you'd have to buy a lot of it to work reliably, or else need multiple successive hits, which might be a problem since your character isn't supposed to be superhumanly accurate; and of course the target could have Power Defense.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

I think it could certainly be possible to build the Suppresses to only work when it's against him... of course, the other alternatives would be (as others have suggested), to give him extra Defenses and such, "only to reduce damage to X," but that's pretty hard to enforce since you can't just pull dice out of how much they're rolling with your defenses.

 

Hmm... still tend to lean towards Adjustment Powers as the best approach, myself. A limitation of "only against him" would probably be worth a solid -1 or so... help offset the *massive* +2 "All Superhuman Abilities at Once" advantage that'd get stuck on the base power.

[Remjin]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

One thing to look at storywise is that many characters with superhuman stats should, conceptually, be well below NCM after theis powers are drained.

 

Take for example a character who is superstrong, but is not obviously bulky, muscular or large. Such a character probably should not be at the upper limit of NCM after his or her "super" strength has been nullified. As a good visual, picture Clark Kent after forfeiting his powers in the Christopher Reeve's Superman movies.

 

This throws a medium-sized wrench in the mechanics, but is probably worth considering since part of the point of the character is the "feel".

 

Hmmm... very interesting and probably true... except that would take a certain interpretive method to enforce and is thus a bit wonky, if I may use that word, that work out rules-wise.

 

I think it could certainly be possible to build the Suppresses to only work when it's against him... of course, the other alternatives would be (as others have suggested), to give him extra Defenses and such, "only to reduce damage to X," but that's pretty hard to enforce since you can't just pull dice out of how much they're rolling with your defenses.

 

Hmm... still tend to lean towards Adjustment Powers as the best approach, myself. A limitation of "only against him" would probably be worth a solid -1 or so... help offset the *massive* +2 "All Superhuman Abilities at Once" advantage that'd get stuck on the base power.

 

Yeah, probably, but then again, most heroes don't have too many aspects that are boosted or supernatural. Certainly several, but not all, so I could possibly use it as a multipower to try to keep some of the costs down, and only use those aspects I need. Connect that to some combat levels and such, and it might work... as a whole, possible, but still expensive. =)

[Remjin]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Setting aside the issue of whether this power should ever be allowed , and treating it as an intellectual exercise: my suggestion for the cheapest, simplest mechanic for this effect would be Extra-Dimensional Movement, to a "dimension" where the target character would be under all the above restrictions, Usable As Attack. How it's defended against would really depend on how you define the SFX of the ability.

 

Transform could also do this, but you'd have to buy a lot of it to work reliably, or else need multiple successive hits, which might be a problem since your character isn't supposed to be superhumanly accurate; and of course the target could have Power Defense.

 

Yes, the issue of its being allowed is definitely something to consider...

 

Extra-Dimensional Movement seems kind of weird, but I see where you're going with it. Kind of hard to define, though, isn't it?

 

Hmmm... Transform... I suppose that would be possible, too, that power has always been a bit confusing to me. Superhumanly accurate, no, but buying a bunch of combat skill levels wouldn't necessarily be inappropriate, making it at least decently possible rather than impossible to land the thing. =) Power Defense... well, all things need a counter, right? =)

[Doc Samson]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

I wracked my brain over this for a few weeks while designing a similar character. I tried numerous Drain and Suppress builds, but they are always mammoth in cost for relatively little effect. Here is a few things I did. Though expensive it was a fun character.

 

Some of the suggestions above are very good.

 

Damage Reduction is a great unresistable way to simulate reducing a foes damage (as opposed to increasing your resistance). It's also great to represent a "Personal Suppression Field". You could scale (via a limitation) the amount of DR based on the attack. For example 75% Resistant Damage Reduction, Limited Power: Each level of DR (25%, 50%, and 75%) Only Applies to 4d6 of an attack (in order from 25% to 75%).

 

I used an NND vs. Normal Characteristics Maxima for one attack. This one will get argued but even in the supers heavy DC universe it's hard to argue that NCM is not extremely common, just not for supers. Ultimatley it's up to the GM and we are not talking about extreme damage here anyway.

 

For another attack I had an AVLD vs. PD of 8 and below (norm max). It's not alot of defense but everyone has it. Again this will be up to your GM. An alternative might be AVLD vs. Lack of Weakness.

 

To simulate that my normal attacks affected everyone equally, my GM allowed an Uncontrolled Find Weakness. At the 15- level I was usually able to make 2-3 rolls (obviously less or none if they had Lack of Weakness) which would bring even the mightiest PD down to reasonable levels.

 

Armor Piercing and Penetrating attacks can also be used to simulate "Suppressed Defenses" though Hardened is a common defense.

 

There are alot of ways to reduce an opponent's OCV and DCV to normal levels. You can simply buy up CSLs with OCV and DCV, but I imagine if you don't want any stats in superhuman ranges, you may not want superhuman skill levels either. You can use Penalty Skill Levels, but they are resistable with Power Defense. Finally, and this one will surely bring jeers from your GM, you can buy a Change Environment "Suppression Field" vs. OCV and DCV, No Range and Self Only. It doesn't make sense until you read the Stealth Suit example under CE in 5ER. It's expensive but unresistable.

 

I hope this helps or at least gives you a few ideas. I have to warn you though, to achieve this effect you will probably spend more points than others in your group to be roughly the same power level.

 

[edit] Also, don't forget to take just a few points of Combat Luck or Damage Resistance so you don't get shredded by killing attacks.

 

[editII] The one problem I was not able to beat was superuman SPD scores. I finally settled on a 0 END Continuous SPD Suppress, Limited to reducing SPD down to 4 (norm max). Again, not a cheap power.

 

[editIII] Heh, I'm remembering why I retired this character. Not having a superhuman movement power sux. Make sure you save points for a vehicle (doesn't feel very super though).

[Metaphysician]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Those, certainly not. I'd say that what the concept would involve limiting would be the following:

 

Stats above NCM (as stated in the concept itself).

Non-equipment based powers.

Any equipment based powers that aren't normal technology.

Anything above the "normal skill maximum" suggested in TUSK.

Maybe bonus DC.

 

And this would require a SFX on the order of Mxylptzk.

[OddHat]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Treating this as two issues:

 

1) "I turn off all your powers so we can fight fair" is not a fair fight. It's like going up against a guy bigger and stronger than yourself and saying it's only a fair fight if you can cut his tendons before the fight starts to get rid of his Strength advantage. That said, the easiest way to do it in HERO is a big AOE Suppress versus all Superpowers and a second versus all Supertech, letting the GM define each to his satisfaction.

 

2) It's dead easy to create a cinematic Martial Artist who can hold his own versus most 250-450 point Supers without giving him any obvious Superpowers. Start with the Super Skills in Pulp Hero and Dark Champions and work from there. Find Weakness and Martial NNDs take him past the defenses of most Supers, Rapid Attack and Two Weapon Figgthing (HtH) to let him pump out as many attacks per phase as most speedsters, Damage Reduction and Armor defined as Pain Control and DCV levels to push him up to your campaign limits defined as "Always Moving" allow him to slug it out in HtH without getting squished, etc. You can even add in some thrown weapons and a ranged martial art to deal with flying blasters a bit better.

 

I'm not a fan of the whole "What would you do without your powers" trope. You always have more abilities to lose, and in a setting where Superpowers are possible at all I fail to see how they're less a part of you than anything else your genes and training caused you to develop.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Treating this as two issues:

 

1) "I turn off all your powers so we can fight fair" is not a fair fight. It's like going up against a guy bigger and stronger than yourself and saying it's only a fair fight if you can cut his tendons before the fight starts to get rid of his Strength advantage. That said, the easiest way to do it in HERO is a big AOE Suppress versus all Superpowers and a second versus all Supertech, letting the GM define each to his satisfaction.

 

2) It's dead easy to create a cinematic Martial Artist who can hold his own versus most 250-450 point Supers without giving him any obvious Superpowers. Start with the Super Skills in Pulp Hero and Dark Champions and work from there. Find Weakness and Martial NNDs take him past the defenses of most Supers, Rapid Attack and Two Weapon Figgthing (HtH) to let him pump out as many attacks per phase as most speedsters, Damage Reduction and Armor defined as Pain Control and DCV levels to push him up to your campaign limits defined as "Always Moving" allow him to slug it out in HtH without getting squished, etc. You can even add in some thrown weapons and a ranged martial art to deal with flying blasters a bit better.

 

I'm not a fan of the whole "What would you do without your powers" trope. You always have more abilities to lose, and in a setting where Superpowers are possible at all I fail to see how they're less a part of you than anything else your genes and training caused you to develop.

 

I may be way off base here, but what I think he's looking to do is "give Superman the Red Sun Treatment." What I mean by this is, he's a norm (well a marts norm) and he wants to turn super baddies into norm abddies (not incompetent, just not super) while they fight him. It's a plot device used by villains for ages. Note that the hero still wins, he just has to do it without his powers. I think i remember a de-powerd Clark kent kicking lex Luthor's but before.

[OddHat]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

I may be way off base here' date=' but what I think he's looking to do is "give Superman the Red Sun Treatment." What I mean by this is, he's a norm (well a marts norm) and he wants to turn super baddies into norm abddies (not incompetent, just not super) while they fight him. It's a plot device used by villains for ages. Note that the hero still wins, he just has to do it without his powers. I think i remember a de-powerd Clark kent kicking lex Luthor's but before.[/quote']

 

As I said, I know the trope, I just don't like it, even in the comics. In a point based game it's even more of an issue. A depowered Silver Age Superman is still a well trained and experienced fighter (depending on the writer; sometimes he was a master of Kryptonian Martial Arts, other times he was getting his butt kicked by Mohamed Ali); a depowered 350 point Brick is probably only a 100 point character, and most of that won't be in martial arts or combat skills. Sending him up against a 200 point Martial Artist who also has a 150 point "Nerf Supers" power is not a fair fight.

 

Note that I'm not slamming the OP for liking the concept; I just don't.