Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Also, the power-loss is integral to Superman's own build, making it alot cleaner to produce. After all, all you need to do to figure out what goes away and what doesn't, is look at what has the "Not in Red Sunlight" disadvantage on it.

 

I maintain my contention that, to create a similar effect against any arbitrary special effect requires a degree of reality warping bordering on the omnipotent, because most of the special effects have nearly nothing to do with each other.

[Neutron]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

I've enjoyed reading this thread! It has been great bringing up what people have problems with in the game back when I played (1st Ed). I have a few random ideas to contribute:

1-Old school martial artists were designed NOT to get hit. Thus their DEX and DCV (and related skills) were where half their points went.

2-If this were a "normal" martial artist in a big game, realistically, the player should know that they would be at a disadvantage because there would be no way they could use normal powers to equal that of those "super powered" heroes they would be put up against. (They might as well write it in as a disadvantage and get some more points for it--)

3-Again, old school, they were then to spend another majority of their points on "martial arts skill" that did 1.5 punch and x2 kick multiplied up as you bought each level of skill (not as complex as it is now)(not as versatile, but...) and then you would use the manuver skills to "dodge or block the 75 STR haymaker coming your way".

4-So, I would think to keep it "real", I would not worry about all the "evening the playing field powers, etc. Get back to basics. Buy up your skills and Requisites like the old school martial artist, call the "special effect" associated with the 15d6 martial punch "a whole lot of damage coming your way" and let the MA do what he was designed to do: dodge, block, dodge, dodge closer, think about striking, block, dodging some more twice, CHOP, game over.

?

-CK

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Extra-Dimensional Movement seems kind of weird, but I see where you're going with it. Kind of hard to define, though, isn't it?

 

I maintain my contention that' date=' to create a similar effect against any arbitrary special effect requires a degree of reality warping bordering on the omnipotent, because most of the special effects have nearly nothing to do with each other.[/quote']

 

Well, there are a number of characters in comics whose schtick actually is "reality warping." It's one of the few concepts that would justify the kind of EDM I suggested. It might be possible to limit it to this one "normalizing" effect rather than make the character a total cosmic powerhouse.

 

Ironically enough, a mystic martial artist might just be one of the character types who could justifiably have such an ability. After all, more than one Oriental philosophy suggests that "reality" is a manifestation of individual perception, and that changing what's "real" to you is a matter of altering your perception of it.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

As a general aside... when discussing the question of the FX involved, you have to keep in mind the background "meta-FX" that might be involved.

 

For example, in the CU, superpowers are caused by the background magical level as I remember.

 

So if you've got a guy who suppresses that magic level... all those pretty little gadgets they've got that rely on supertech or other superhuman abilities go away, n'est-ce pas? It's the entire way they managed to connect Star Hero and Champions in the same universe without supers being an integral part of the universe anymore....

[Remjin]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Treating this as two issues:

 

1) "I turn off all your powers so we can fight fair" is not a fair fight. It's like going up against a guy bigger and stronger than yourself and saying it's only a fair fight if you can cut his tendons before the fight starts to get rid of his Strength advantage. That said, the easiest way to do it in HERO is a big AOE Suppress versus all Superpowers and a second versus all Supertech, letting the GM define each to his satisfaction.

 

Nice ideas on how to do it. I don't know if its as bad as cutting a fighter's tendons before a fight, but I do see your point, as others have mentioned.

 

2) It's dead easy to create a cinematic Martial Artist who can hold his own versus most 250-450 point Supers without giving him any obvious Superpowers. Start with the Super Skills in Pulp Hero and Dark Champions and work from there. Find Weakness and Martial NNDs take him past the defenses of most Supers, Rapid Attack and Two Weapon Figgthing (HtH) to let him pump out as many attacks per phase as most speedsters, Damage Reduction and Armor defined as Pain Control and DCV levels to push him up to your campaign limits defined as "Always Moving" allow him to slug it out in HtH without getting squished, etc. You can even add in some thrown weapons and a ranged martial art to deal with flying blasters a bit better.

 

Yes, I've done this before, but it doesn't ever feel right... its easier to do, by far, and less fiddly with the rules, but its hard to say you're a normal guy throwing a 15d6 Hand Attack. =) Of course, its a matter of scales, the regular martial artist is certainly a staple of the genre, I just had this thought that it might be neat to do it the other way, but its turning into quite the conundrum of right or wrong and all that. It'd be perfect if the power to suppress certain levels of abilities ONLY applied versus this character, thus the enemies powers worked versus everyone else, but its altogether a bit complex.

 

I'm not a fan of the whole "What would you do without your powers" trope. You always have more abilities to lose, and in a setting where Superpowers are possible at all I fail to see how they're less a part of you than anything else your genes and training caused you to develop.

 

I think the whole idea is more about the mindset of the character rather than the validity of superpowers or anything in that regard. The character is biased in his thoughts, of course, because its a realm in which he lives... to his sense of honor, hand to hand combat is the epitome of the test of man versus man, and thus he seeks to make that happen. Fair? Probably not. Its pretty much a one-trick pony, and not really that cool for the long run in any case, it was just a thought I had.

 

As I said, I know the trope, I just don't like it, even in the comics. In a point based game it's even more of an issue. A depowered Silver Age Superman is still a well trained and experienced fighter (depending on the writer; sometimes he was a master of Kryptonian Martial Arts, other times he was getting his butt kicked by Mohamed Ali); a depowered 350 point Brick is probably only a 100 point character, and most of that won't be in martial arts or combat skills. Sending him up against a 200 point Martial Artist who also has a 150 point "Nerf Supers" power is not a fair fight.

 

Note that I'm not slamming the OP for liking the concept; I just don't.

 

That's exactly what I want someone to retain, though. The only things I want to get rid of in the opposing character is superhigh stats like massive strength, superhigh dexterity (depending on campaign norm), energy blasts, superspeed, shattering the earth beneath me, flight, that sort of thing. The one thing I'd want them to retain are their skills and martial arts and otherwise. Stats to NCM, retaining maximums if superhuman, skill levels, and all that is what he'd want them to keep.

 

Not a problem not liking the trope... I wasn't necessarily looking into doing it, but I was curious as to how it would be done, in case I ever did. More likely, seeing as how complicated it could be, I'd rather just make a 350 point martial artist and call it good since I match with them anyway. Thanks for the opinions, always good to see opposing positions, as I'm hardly when to want to discuss issues with the choir and all that.. =)

 

Well, there are a number of characters in comics whose schtick actually is "reality warping." It's one of the few concepts that would justify the kind of EDM I suggested. It might be possible to limit it to this one "normalizing" effect rather than make the character a total cosmic powerhouse.

 

Ironically enough, a mystic martial artist might just be one of the character types who could justifiably have such an ability. After all, more than one Oriental philosophy suggests that "reality" is a manifestation of individual perception, and that changing what's "real" to you is a matter of altering your perception of it.

 

Yeah, the mystical aspect works pretty well. I also like the pressure point idea, "blocking" their powers so to speak. The reality warp isn't a bad idea, I've always skipped past that part of the rules because it makes me feel all funny when I try to read it... or perhaps I'm just attention deficit or something. =) Its a good idea, just not sure how it'd work mechanically. Conceptually, it could be a GREAT power for dueling or some-such.

[Remjin]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Oh, also as a side note that I want to reiterate... i want the martial artist in question to only be a 100 point martial artist or some level on that order, not a 200+ point character. =)

[OddHat]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Yes, I've done this before, but it doesn't ever feel right... its easier to do, by far, and less fiddly with the rules, but its hard to say you're a normal guy throwing a 15d6 Hand Attack. =)

 

Buy a nice high Find Weakness with your 10d6 Punch and 12d6 Kick, and tell yourself your character is Remo Williams.

 

As I said earlier, Suppress is good for this effect. So is Transform; an Autofire HtH Transform, "Block Chi Meridians", is actually in genre for a Wuxia style martial artist.

[Remjin]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Buy a nice high Find Weakness with your 10d6 Punch and 12d6 Kick, and tell yourself your character is Remo Williams.

 

As I said earlier, Suppress is good for this effect. So is Transform; an Autofire HtH Transform, "Block Chi Meridians", is actually in genre for a Wuxia style martial artist.

 

Heck, even 10d6 sounds like a lot. The last time I did something like this, I think I just bought martial maneuvers with extra DCs....

 

OH MY GOSH, you brought up Remo!!!!! hahahahaha... my kung fu teacher actually introduced me to the film. He thought it was hilarious... and it was!

 

Yep, Suppress and Transform... autofire HtH Transform, now that's pretty sweet! I'll have to keep that one in mind... awesome, totally simulate that hit 15 chi points thing... hehehe...

[assault]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Oh' date=' also as a side note that I want to reiterate... i want the martial artist in question to only be a 100 point martial artist or some level on that order, not a 200+ point character. =)[/quote']

 

Hmm... As it happens, I'm in the middle of designing a homage to the original Bat-Girl (Betty Kane). I have a suspicion that she wouldn't be affected by your character's powers - and could probably beat him in a fight!

 

Being out-fought by a twelve year old girl would be embarassing.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

As a general aside... when discussing the question of the FX involved, you have to keep in mind the background "meta-FX" that might be involved.

 

For example, in the CU, superpowers are caused by the background magical level as I remember.

 

So if you've got a guy who suppresses that magic level... all those pretty little gadgets they've got that rely on supertech or other superhuman abilities go away, n'est-ce pas? It's the entire way they managed to connect Star Hero and Champions in the same universe without supers being an integral part of the universe anymore....

 

I've considered that, but you still run into enough SFX problems to not make a difference. For instance, psionics are still around sans mana; do "super psionics" vanish entirely, or get merely drained, and to what extent ( especially since really powerful psionics still do exist, albeit much more rarely )?

 

Superskills exist outside high mana settings ( hell, they got written up originally for two such settings ). Do they go away?

 

What gadgets count as supertech and what doesn't?

 

Characteristics above NCM exist elsewhere; do they go away, or just get dropped to Human Max, or to what their point spending would buy with NCM in place?

 

I think you get my drift.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

And, as an aside. . . 100 point martial artist? You might wanna recheck your numbers. Thats not a realistic Shaolin master, thats not even a realistic McDojo trainer.

 

( no, seriously, check Ninja Hero )

[Remjin]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Hmm... As it happens' date=' I'm in the middle of designing a homage to the original Bat-Girl (Betty Kane). I have a suspicion that she wouldn't be affected by your character's powers - and could probably beat him in a fight!

 

Being out-fought by a twelve year old girl would be embarassing.

 

If she's good, he shouldn't care, but yes... it would be. =)

 

And, as an aside. . . 100 point martial artist? You might wanna recheck your numbers. Thats not a realistic Shaolin master, thats not even a realistic McDojo trainer.

 

( no, seriously, check Ninja Hero )

 

I haven't written it up, and as far as I can think, it shouldn't be too hard to do a 100 point martial artist. Heroic games have them, afterall. =) Perhaps not a Shaolin Master, but certainly a young disciple. =) [Deleted portion about McDojos, as it was turning into a rant that has nothing to do with this topic.]

[Clonus]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Oh' date=' also as a side note that I want to reiterate... i want the martial artist in question to only be a 100 point martial artist or some level on that order, not a 200+ point character. =)[/quote']

 

After you pay for your nerfing powers, what's left over won't be all that much.

[Remjin]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

that's why I want to keep the points low. Heck, at this point, I'm thinking maybe it would be funnier to have him be a bar-brawlin' tough-guy with the whole macho bit. Y'know.. "fight me like a man, ya spandex wearin' loon!"

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

that's why I want to keep the points low. Heck' date=' at this point, I'm thinking maybe it would be funnier to have him be a bar-brawlin' tough-guy with the whole macho bit. Y'know.. "fight me like a man, ya spandex wearin' loon!"[/quote']

 

I'd stick with the martial artist unless you want him to be a total joke character. The monk type you can believe in his deep honor even if you think he's full of it. If he's just some redneck guy he would just come across as a jerk and a less worthy opponent IMO

[Remjin]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

I'd stick with the martial artist unless you want him to be a total joke character. The monk type you can believe in his deep honor even if you think he's full of it. If he's just some redneck guy he would just come across as a jerk and a less worthy opponent IMO

 

Ah, good point, lost track of the original concept there for a minute... thanks for reminding me.

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Something I haven't seen mentioned yet is a reference to Stormwatch: Team Achilles. If you haven't read this before, it's highly insightful to this conversation.

 

Case in point, first issue we're introduced to how these guys think about engagement with supers: "Fighting a super-human opponent doesn't have to be an automatic death sentence. Most of them have no combat training to rely on. They just woke up one day and could shoot flames out of their hands. This reliance on their powers makes them an easy target for a well-trained fighter. Special forces close-combat is all about staying close. Deliver sharp and sudden debilitating strikes with elbows, forearms and knees. Aim for the joints. Control the opponent and keep pounding him no matter what. Everyone's got a weak spot. Never back off from an opponent the way people always do in the movies. Don't give them time to adjust."

 

This suggests to me that the key problem for the martial artist is just being able to get close. Once you're inside, it's find weakness, flash attacks, low-level HKA (joint attacks), and other kinds of high-stun stuff that will ensure that the other guy just doesn't get an attack off. If he does, your high DCV should make sure he has a bad chance of hitting. That said, in the fight I quoted from above, they finished the guy with his own pistol, and afterward one of the agents thought he'd broken a couple ribs. Again, if you haven't seen this series, check it out. The battle in issue six where the Swede kicks the snot out of Midnighter is the first thing I thought of when I saw this thread.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Being fair, those were some pretty low end metahumans. OTOH, the principle applies. . . within limits.

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

If you were capable of inflicting high stun and flash attacks on some target, then you've got control of the combat, and I think that's the key for this concept. It's like bullriding. There's a lot of angry meat that is trying to hurt you and you're trying to manage the situation and stay just a step or two ahead of its attacks.

 

The key trick is having a variety of additional methods to tame a variety of other particulars, such as what to do if you have a brick with high defenses against your normal methods, or a speedster who's just going to hit you first and recover more quickly. This is where maybe a VPP might come in handy, either as equipment (as Team Achilles did) or as a series of martial arts disciplines that require prior meditation to properly attune the mind and body. These could be specific suppressions, or perhaps armor piercing, etc.

 

Oh yes, and don't forget to sweep the leg!

[OddHat]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Why assume that the Super has to fight like a pudding?

 

Anyway, in a point based system, when a 350 point martial artist is going up against a 350 point Brick, both stuck under the same campaign caps, it's already a fair fight.

 

As to the whole agents versus supers thing, I've never seen the appeal. If agents and soldiers can casually smack supers around, there's no particular point to superheroes in the first place. The cops should be able to handle supercrooks without help.

 

As to kicking Midnighter's butt, who hasn't? Crippled children beat up Midnighter for his lunch money in the Wildstorm Universe.

 

Or he's written as invincible, with no rhyme or reason in between.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

Nah, that fight was legit. They'd acquired one of Bendix' old command override codes. Shut down all of Midnighter's augmentations, and *then* beat him up when he suddenly couldn't move properly and could feel pain.

[Remjin]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

The whole Stormwatch and how to bit is besides the point. I know how to make a martial arts character. The point is to create a particular idea within the rules. It is, by far, simply easier to create a martial artist superhero. As Oddhat said? 350 points is 350 points. Everything else is how you build it.

 

Getting inside is not necessarily the answer, in any case, a lot of heroes are veey good in HtH as well as having powers, nevermind the archetype mixed characters...

 

Thanks for the conttibution, I believe I know what you're trying to convey, but I need crunchy, not fluffy.

[Zed-F]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

As to the whole agents versus supers thing, I've never seen the appeal. If agents and soldiers can casually smack supers around, there's no particular point to superheroes in the first place. The cops should be able to handle supercrooks without help.

 

If the regular beat cops can handle most criminals, then why do we have SWAT teams? If the regular armed forces can handle most enemy armies, why do we have special forces?

 

Not everyone has the special skills, training, and abilities needed to most effectively combat certain threats. This is especially true in a superhero universe. Even if the cops can in theory handle most street-level supervillains, that's not necessarily going to be the most efficient way to catch them, nor the way that involves a minimal of collateral damage, loss of life, and expense to John Q Taxpayer. While the cops might indeed catch some of the street-level supervillains, those are generally not the stories we choose to tell or write about in our games. The choice of setting also has an influence -- in a setting where the police and justice system have been compromised to some degree, the cops might be theoretically capable of catching supervillains, but unable or unwilling to actually do so in practice.

 

At the other end of the spectrum, once you get up to the Superman and the JLA level of things, the common trope is that these folks are so far above the common masses as to be the only ones capable of dealing with the threats they fight, at all -- no amount of conventional force will work, no matter how intelligently applied. I personally find that particular convention stretches my willingness to suspend disbelief a little farther than I'd like. I find it easier to accept an action hero that happens to have limited superpowers, living in a world that isn't *too* far removed from our own, rather than someone like Superman, who logically would alter life on Earth to an unrecognizable degree just by existing.

[Neutron]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

"Anyway, in a point based system, when a 350 point martial artist is going up against a 350 point Brick, both stuck under the same campaign caps, it's already a fair fight." --Oddhat

 

I think this is the solution to your problem! You want a 100 point MA, then limit the game to 100 pts. and everyone is even and he works no matter what. (Golden age style, etc.). On the other hand, if he is ONLY 100 points and specialized, he shouldn't stand a chance against someone 200+, 250+, etc. because that is the nature of things. Survival of the fittest, and on the conditions you have set (ambiguous as they might be) the MA is not going to survive long. Better to run away and play another day when he has more experience to compete?

[Zed-F]

Re: Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

 

That's not really the concept. The concept is, he's a 100-point martial artist, plus whatever it takes to buy him this power.

 

You know, there is always the handwave option. 'Here's my character, having spent 100 points to make himself a competent martial artist... and one Custom Power "Immune to Metapowers" which I thrashed out with the GM. We decided it cost 250 points, and defined it to work like so.'