Scroll and potion problems.

[Midhir]

One problem that will crop up with allowing the creation of potions, scrolls or even limited use magic items (wands, talismans, etc with charges) becomes the sheer number of items that players may choose to create and thus unbalance the game.

 

One way to keep this in check would be to obviously make the creation cost coin and to keep that cost a little steep, but this doesn't always work.

 

So another way I have been able to keep the magic item mass production line in check is by making the creator invest his Mana (end reserve used to cast spells) in the item. If the item has a real cost of say 10 then once its created his Mana is depleted by 10 until the items is used up and thus releasing his Mana to be recovered as normal. This very successfully limits the number of items in circulation and also opens up the possibilities of a viable alchemist type character that instead of casting spells invents/creates potions, scrolls etc. that he uses when in need of a spell effect.

[Lord Liaden]

To keep the number of potions and scrolls to a reasonable number, here's what I did FWIW:

 

Build these items as Expendable Foci with the Trigger Advantage to allow the magic to be "stored,", and Usable by Others +1/4 to pay for the ability to pass it on to other people e.g. for sale (since Universal Foci aren't supposed to be given freely to others). Extra Time to prepare the item will bring the cost down considerably, as can the difficulty of acquiring the Expendable materials, and the Fragile Focus Lim if desired.

 

Take the Charges Limitation: single or multiple use to represent doses of potion or number of spells on a scroll, Continuing Charges for a Constant Power with a set duration. In conjunction with Extra Time this can bring the cost of the Power down even further, and allow one person to have multiple uses of the same Power. While having multiple batches of a Power with Charges available at the same time would seem to be against the rules, if you limit the uses that any one person can have to the number of Charges you preserve the spirit of the Limitation, as well as game balance. It's easy enough to create an in-genre reason why one person can only have so many uses of a potion or scroll. In my campaign a person who used any potion more often in a day than the number of Charges it was built with gained no benefit from it - the potion no longer worked. For scroll spells, more than the specified number of the same spell carried in close proximity for a time (e.g. on a person's body) would neutralize the magic of the "excess" spells.

 

To recover these Charges, the average person would have to buy more from an alchemist or magical scribe, the same as for ammunition for a weapon; a person with the ability to create such items would have to acquire the ingredients and spend the in-game time necessary to make them. The GM can restict the number of potions or scrolls in his game by enforcing Extra Time minimums and regulating the difficulty of acquiring the Expendable materials. No adventuring PC - or player - wants to spend all his time and money in the workshop while his friends are off adventuring.

[Midhir]

Extra time although at first glance seems to be a good way to limit the number of items could result in an adventuring group holiday. Oh well the potions are great so we all just take a holiday while Ben works on the potion production line. It can work but it leaves room for abuse like most options that don't actaully place a limit on the total in some way or offer a trade off for their creation.

 

I generally use a high coin cost, require a good length of time to create the items and throw in some hard to find ingredients (foci). The only problem is that when you get a seasoned adventuring group that has had time to build up some wealth, those three options can become easier to circumvent.

 

If the player has to invest part of his power (on a temporary basis) then coin won't be able to overcome that limitation and you can maintain control on the items with out alot of squabbling.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Also techincally illegal. Summon doesnt conjure items; it conjures creatures (and other things stated as entities).

 

You summon a flask golem that happens to have a few potions as part of his standard equipment. Or something like that.

[austenandrews]

Originally posted by Midhir

Extra time although at first glance seems to be a good way to limit the number of items could result in an adventuring group holiday.

 

IMX time is a much more critical limiter to PCs than money. After awhile money can flow like wine. But if it takes a week or two or more of dedicated work to create a single magic item, now you're cutting into adventuring time. They'll do it occasionally, but not regularly.

 

Then again, in my gaming group the PCs tend to have their own "offscreen" agendas to pursue, which are a valuable part of the game. In general my group is pretty restrained.

 

-AA

[Snarf]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

If someone wanted to be a blacksmith, I'd never require a Usable By Others power...they just need the right skills and materials.

It seems to me like the VPP method is more of a superheroic level campaign way to do it and the skills and money method is better for a heroic level campaign.

[JakSpade]

I would place potions, scrolls and such into the pile with the rest of the magical items, which I wouldn't charge experience for unless the characters wanted to use the item for long periods of time. In other words, I would consider it normal equipment (such as weapons, armor, and such). The players have the choice of paying for the magic item, which means it's THEIRS. If they don't pay the experience, than the item can be stolen, broken, hunted for or become a plot point for the GM...

 

The character creating the items would have to have all the $bucks$, skills, tools and time to create the items. If he wants to keep a potion and use it exclusively, he has to pay points for it. But if he wants to sell it or give it away, he doesn't have to spend maintenance points for it, just spend the time and effort making it. Once it leaves his hand, he get's those points back.

 

Jak

[Markdoc]

Sorry Chris - maybe I was reading too much into a maths error: when I looked at the cost of the pool I assumed you had "houseruled" that you not pay for the +1 add, so that the pool only cost 30.

 

But the comment about the "1 week extra time" would apply to the powers means that it would take 1 week to cast the spell off your scroll! Not very useful....

 

Not that it matters: if you use a VPP for this, the change in the control cost is not huge - you go from 64 real points to 68 real points if you take the one week limit off.

 

Likewise it does not matter how much of the pool is taken up with a given spell: the trigger advantage means that once you have cast it (made the scroll or whatever) you are done - you can shift the whole pool to something else, so limitations are less important than active points.

 

I'd drop the no skill roll required (+1) limitation, since the "creating" part of the VPP is not meant to be used for on the fly magic: a mage could easily take the time to change powers in the pool out of combat. That drops the cost of the pool back to 30 real points.

 

cheers, Mark

[Greatwyrm]

Can someone explain to the new guy (me) why VPPs are good for gadget-type characters (e.g. Batman, James Bond) but not for fantasy spellcasters? I mean, aren't potions, scrolls, and wands just magical gadgets?

 

I'd say VPPs would be ideal for an artificer type character. A mage who gets most or all of his power from making potions, talismans, and such.

 

OTOH, I think if you wanted to go along a similar route to D&D, using craft skills and cash would be a good way to go. Just make separate craft skills for each type of magic item. Maybe you're good with potions, but never learned how to make wands.

 

Like most things in HERO, it just depends on the type of game you want, right?

[JakSpade]

VPPs work well for "utility belt" type characters, who can create various gadgets and effects at the drop of a hat. You can even limit the pools so that they don't change until out of combat situations (that require gadgeteering, prayer, rituals or re-equiping closets).

 

I think that people are most upset with the cost of VPPs as compared to the other frameworks... personally, I thought about using elemental controls for magic... haven't tested it yet...

 

Granted multipowers are cheaper, I (as a GM) wouldn't allow a character to change slots in his multipower (it's just the nature of the beast), even if he created it to be his spellbook or box of potions.

 

Jak

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Greatwyrm

Can someone explain to the new guy (me) why VPPs are good for gadget-type characters (e.g. Batman, James Bond) but not for fantasy spellcasters? I mean, aren't potions, scrolls, and wands just magical gadgets?

 

The greatest concern I have with a VPP for fantasy (and I've seen others raise it) is how it benefits spell casters vs. other types of characters. The VPP is very efficient for its points. Now if you limit its use to magical "gadgets" which a character can only change between adventures, at a laboratory or arsenal etc., it's not that abusive; but to allow a spellcaster to come up with any spell he wants, whenever he wants would give him a big edge over other characters. Other Power Frameworks can also make a spell caster more efficient (depending on how the other characters are built), but a VPP has the greatest potential to get out of hand if not carefully regulated by the GM.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Markdoc

Sorry Chris - maybe I was reading too much into a maths error: when I looked at the cost of the pool I assumed you had "houseruled" that you not pay for the +1 add, so that the pool only cost 30.

 

But the comment about the "1 week extra time" would apply to the powers means that it would take 1 week to cast the spell off your scroll! Not very useful....

 

Not so. It would take 1 week to create the scroll. The scroll is actually not a Power in the pool and is therefore not subject to any of the Limitations on the pool; the only thing that is subject to those Limitations is the Power used to create the scroll (the UBO with Differing Modifiers). That's one of the reasons both Usable On Others and Variable Power Pool have stop signs.

 

As far as the Pool Cost is concerned, it's a 30 point pool; the Control Cost has a +1 Advantage, making it 30 Active Points. I'm not sure why HeroDesigner calls it 60 Active Points, unless it's adding the Pool Cost and the Control Cost together. It otherwise looks like it's done all of the math correctly.

 

The No Skill Roll Required (+1 Advantage on the control cost) is to change the points in the pool. All of the Powers in the pool must take the Requires A Skill Roll Limitation. Thinking back, I could have omitted that Advantage, because the pool can be changed around out of combat (taking between 1 Turn and 1 minute) without a skill roll. I'm going to refigure that and edit my original post.

[Greatwyrm]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Now if you limit its use to magical "gadgets" which a character can only change between adventures, at a laboratory or arsenal etc., it's not that abusive; but to allow a spellcaster to come up with any spell he wants, whenever he wants would give him a big edge over other characters.

 

Okay, now I see what the fuss is about. Thanks, LL.

[Markdoc]

>>>Not so. It would take 1 week to create the scroll. The scroll is actually not a Power in the pool<<<<

 

Right, it's just a special effect. The power is the, well, the power (in the example, HKA) and therefore should be subject to the same limitations as the control cost. Not, as I pointed out, that it matters. It's a tiny amount of points to drop the one week deal.

 

And no, I am not being hard of understanding :-) just indulging in a smidgen of facetiousness.

 

I get what you are saying now: that the power is on the scroll, not a product of the pool. I have to admit any player who tried to slip that one by me would be set upon by the Dolorous Frog of Doom - especially since you can do most of this with a regular VPP.

 

>>I'm not sure why HeroDesigner calls it 60 Active Points, unless it's adding the Pool Cost and the Control Cost together. It otherwise looks like it's done all of the math correctly.<<<

 

'Cos any advantages on the control cost go on the pool as well. So it is a 60 point pool as written - although as you note, the +1 is not really necessary, which drops the cost back to 30.

 

cheers, Mark

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Markdoc

I get what you are saying now: that the power is on the scroll, not a product of the pool. I have to admit any player who tried to slip that one by me would be set upon by the Dolorous Frog of Doom - especially since you can do most of this with a regular VPP.

 

I'd send the Frog out too, under most circumstances. As a GM, I don't mind characters getting away with stuff, as long as it's set up in such a way as they can't do it all the time. The minimum 1 week extra time (and, in our particular case, the 1 Charge Nonrecoverable) would go a long way in my view toward keeping it from being abused. As always, YMMV.

[Markdoc]

Chris,

 

good to see we are in agreement - at least on the Frog :-)

 

I think the system would work. But on the whole, I would prefer to stick to a more vanilla system. In my case, I have kept the dreaded potion/scroll/item makers under control by keeping control of resources: if you need star of mercury to make a "fast-running potion" I can easily deny the potion maker the required ingedients by saying "It's cloudy tonight".

 

Surprisingly, I have found that players actually seem to LIKE this restriction, which adds flavour to the spellcasting.

 

Many enjoyable adventures have resulted from: "To get past the dragon, we need a big bag of sleeping powder. To make a sleeping powder, we need the bones of a lich. Where are we going to find a dead lich? Well, I can make a scrying wind spell, to try to find the bones, but for that I need a live mandrake. That's dangerous. On the other hand, I can try to make a divination with a sand rune, and for that all I need is sand, a dagger and a live person's hand. Hey Ruger, put your hand on this table after I sprinkle some sand on it..."

 

etc

 

Cheers, Mark