Scroll and potion problems.

[Yamo]

Looking for rules legal ways to translate these concepts into HERO properly.

 

In D&D, wizards can make single-use scrolls and potions (and other such disposable items) that replicate the effects of almost any spell they know.

 

How to represent this in HERO? The only option I can see is to buy each spell you want to be able to make an item out of as a seperate Power with Trigger, OAF Expendable, etc, but buying two versions of every spell is just too expensive.

 

Using Independent is problematic, too. A single one-use scroll with a powerful spell on it (say 90 AP) will cost 11 points even with -8 worth of Limitations on it, which is just ridiculous, even for something you can only use once. No sane wizard would choose would drop eleven character points permanently just to have an item that lets him cast a single spell he can already cast once. That's loco. Maybe a couple points, but no more.

 

Any ideas?

[Snarf]

Maybe a disposable magic items VPP? That would allow them some flexibility but put a limit on how many items they could have around at the same time.

 

If they already have some kind of magic VPP, then you could let them build items out of that pool.

[Yamo]

Problems with a VPP:

 

The quantity and variety of potions and such the character can make should be limited by in-game time, money and components, not Active/Real points.

 

For example, if the character has the know-how and materials to make five types of potions, he shouldn't be limited to four because the fifth won't fit in his Pool right then.

 

Secondly, there's the problem of existing potions either vanishing somehow when the Pool changes or the Pool not being able to change as long as existing potions remain unused.

 

VPP won't work.

[Snarf]

Yeah, you really have to strain to explain the special effects. It's horribly counterintuitive.

 

The quantity and variety of potions and such the character can make should be limited by in-game time, money and components, not Active/Real points.

 

You might just want to create formulas or lists of what is required. I don't have Fantasy Hero, but in Star Hero I saw a lot of formulas for converting APs in a power to money costs for a device. Maybe you could have them roll against appropriate skills like Enchantment or Calligraphy or something.

 

If no effective solution presents itself, I guess it's time reason from effects. What exactly does being able to place your powers in a disposable item allow you to do? The first things that come into my mind are allowing others to use your powers or being able to cheaply obtain a little of someone elses powers. Maybe a naked power advantage of usable by others?

[Snarf]

Maybe the ability could somehow be built as a Transform. That's usually a good all-purpose permanent effects power. The rules on creating objects warn GM's to make the items dissapear quickly, but it sounds like you've already got the power worked into the campaign, so that shouldn't be necessary.

 

Enchanting: Major Transform 2d6 (components into up to $2,000 worth of magic items, reversed by damage or appropriate dispel, standard effect), (AP 30); Gestures? RSR? Extra time? And the main control would be that they have to have the powers that they're putting into scrolls and such (RC around 12).

[Briguy123]

For single use items such as potions and scrolls I don't charge experience. Any character with the appropriate skills (alchemy, KS: Magic, inventor . . . etc.) can create such items. However, the creator has to invest time and money. I require that such items need rare and often expensive materials for creation.

[Chris Goodwin]

This could be my new cause celebre. (Longtime readers will recall my former crusades on such subjects as the overabundance of dwarves, frigging elves, and not-hobbits and Normal Characteristics Maxima.)

 

This totally points up the reason why requiring magic items to be Independent and charging points for them, in a word, sucks.

 

If you're the GM, just build the item. Pretend it fell out of the sky or something. If necessary, you, the GM, have like a billion points or more to spend on magic items, and if you need more all you have to do is wave your hands and you have them.

 

Anyway, there's a simple way around it. Build the ability to build magic items as a Usable By Others Power with Differing Modifiers. Make it Persistent and Uncontrolled if you feel it necessary. The UBO Power should be built with lots of Extra Time, Increased END Cost, and the like. Stick it in a VPP if it's the sort of thing you'd build once in a lifetime. Once you've done that, voila. You've got your one-shot magic item. I wouldn't even allow Independent on it because (get ready for a shocker, boys and girls!) no one is going to pay any points for it. Treat it exactly as if it were a Focus in your typical Champions game; if he's going to keep it, he pays the points for it. If he's only going to use it once (and I'd say this surely qualifies), or, say, sometime between now and the end of the session, he doesn't have to pay points. Problem solved.

 

"But...but..." I hear you saying. Nonsense. Independent and permanently paying points for magic items should have died with first edition Fantasy Hero when the BBB came out. Nothing else in the system supports it. It's a specialized rule intended for one style of play. It is an inappropriate solution to the non-problem of "assembly line magic items". (For that, just make the process take a long time and many specialized Foci.)

 

It's a weak spot. If you push too hard on it, it breaks, and if you build too much of a system on it, it'll take your system with it.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Yamo

Problems with a VPP:

 

The quantity and variety of potions and such the character can make should be limited by in-game time, money and components, not Active/Real points.

 

For example, if the character has the know-how and materials to make five types of potions, he shouldn't be limited to four because the fifth won't fit in his Pool right then.

 

Secondly, there's the problem of existing potions either vanishing somehow when the Pool changes or the Pool not being able to change as long as existing potions remain unused.

 

VPP won't work.

 

The beauty of what I just posted is that it will work just fine in a VPP, and all you need to do is get the Real Points of the final item down to a manageable level. Y'see, those Real Points become the Base Points of your new UBO Power. All you need to do is build the UBO in your VPP, activate it (using whatever skill rolls, Extra Time, Foci, Increased END Cost, etc. are required) and you have your item. Since it's Persistent and Uncontrolled, it'll stick around when you switch the points around in your VPP. Make sure you have enough space in the VPP for those Advantages.

 

(Oh. Aside to no one in particular. You should be able to build Persistent Powers that Cost END To Activate.)

[Heroman]

I would do it Briguy's way.

The cost of components and time would probably be based on the Active and Real points in the power to provide. A 90 AP, 11 Real scroll will, and should, take quite a while to make and not be cheap....

 

 

-Heroman

[tgaptte]

Hey archer,

 

I'm intrigued by your idea...would you mind showing us an example of a specific item and VPP?

 

Thanks!

 

Tim

[feywulf]

healing spell:

heal body 2d6

concentration 0 dcv -1/2, extratime:1 turn -1 1/4,

gestures & incantations -1/2, rsr -1/2

20base 20active 5real

 

healing potion:

heal body 2d6

oaf: potion fragile expendable -1 1/2, independent -2,

1 charge -2, charges don't recover -2

20base 20active 2real

 

skill to make healing potions:

heal body 2d6

trigger(drink potion) +1/4

oaf: potion fragile expendable -1 1/2,

concentration 0 dcv -1/2, extratime:1 hour -2 1/2,

gestures & incantations -1/2, rsr -1/2

20base 25active 4real

 

 

Considering the differences in the limitations and advantages used in these examples, you could with GM permission define the abbility to make scrolls of any known spell like so;

 

naked trigger(read scroll) +1/4

oaf: scroll fragile expendable -1 1/2,

concentration 0 dcv -1/2, extratime:1 hour -2 1/2,

gestures & incantations -1/2, rsr -1/2

X base X*0.25 active X*0.25/6.5 = X*1/26 real

 

To have this abbility work with a spell of up to 60 base points would require 15 active points of trigger for approximatly 2.308 real points. Thats very inexpensive, perhaps too inexpensive, though the time to create and the costs for the materials to create the focus do limit it. UBO might be the better way to go, but the focus limitation already allows the power to be used by others, so UBO is not the way i would do it.

[Snarf]

skill to make healing potions:

heal body 2d6

trigger(drink potion) +1/4

oaf: potion fragile expendable -1 1/2,

concentration 0 dcv -1/2, extratime:1 hour -2 1/2,

gestures & incantations -1/2, rsr -1/2

20base 25active 4real

 

naked trigger(read scroll) +1/4

oaf: scroll fragile expendable -1 1/2,

concentration 0 dcv -1/2, extratime:1 hour -2 1/2,

gestures & incantations -1/2, rsr -1/2

X base X*0.25 active X*0.25/6.5 = X*1/26 real

The RSR could be modified by whether you have the correct ingredients and money you need. That could be where the economic controls are enforced, if you wanted it to be more than a SFX.

[Ndreare]

Naked Advantage Uncontroled+1/2, Trigger +1/4, Limitations of Focus and whatever else you want and you are good to go.

 

IMHO

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by tgaptte

Hey archer,

 

I'm intrigued by your idea...would you mind showing us an example of a specific item and VPP?

 

Thanks!

 

Tim

 

Be glad to.

 

Cost	Power	END
32	Magic Items: Variable Power Pool, 30 base + 2 control cost (45 Active Points); All Powers Require Extra Time 1 Week (-4 1/2), Limited Class Of Powers Available: UBOs Only Very Limited (-1), All Powers Require A Skill Roll (Magic) (-1/2), All Powers Require Focus (-1/4)
0	1) Create Scroll of Flaming Death: Usable By Others With Differing Modifiers , Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Persistent (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (22 Active Points); Extra Time 1 Week (-4 1/2), Increased Endurance Cost 10x END (-4), OAF Fragile Expendable (Focus (scroll, blood of a phoenix, special writing tools); Extremely Difficult to obtain new Focus; -2 1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4) Real Cost: 2	20
9	Scroll of Flaming Death: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), Megascale (Area) (1" = 100 km; +3/4), Megascale (Range) (1" = 100 km; +3/4), Area Of Effect (8" Radius; +1) (105 Active Points); 1 Charges which Never Recover (-4), Extra Time 1 Hour (-3), OAF Expendable (Extremely Difficult to obtain new Focus; -2), Concentration 0 DCV, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (-1), Incantations, Requires Incantations throughout (-1/2)

Powers Cost: 41

 

The Scroll of Flaming Death can call down a rain of fire on an 800 km radius area up to 52,500 km away. The ability to actually hit anything with it is a separate ability (i.e. lots of OCV bonuses), but the GM could wing it if he wanted. As built, it is not necessary to read the scroll out loud, though this could be changed by adding the Incantations Limitation to it (which, in all honesty, I forgot). It takes an hour to read through the scroll, and the caster must do nothing but read the scroll -- if he is interrupted, the scroll fades and is unusable; the builder could add in Side Effects if he wished, meaning that if the reading were interrupted the reader would take whatever the Side Effects were (probably a nasty RKA). There are a few other things I forgot to add (one example being a Must Be Able To Read Limitation) but you can see the process that went into the Power.

 

It takes a week for a wizard to write the Scroll of Flaming Death. It costs him 20 END at the end of the week, and requires him to spend the entire week gesturing and writing. The incantation is required only at the end. It requires a blank scroll, the blood of a phoenix for ink, and special writing implements. Once the wizard has gone through this process (and made his Magic Skill Roll), the Scroll is ready for use; it can be used by anyone (though this could be changed by varying the Limitations on the Scroll).

 

I specifically did not build the Scroll as Independent, because if you're not charging points for it (it is a one-use item that never recovers!) Independent does not limit. That would be a GM call, though.

 

Because the UBO is built Persistent and Uncontrolled, the wizard could, if he wished, immediately after the scroll is finished, switch his VPP points to something else, and the Scroll would stay. If he wanted to spend another week, another 20 END, and had the materials, our hypothetical wizard could create another Scroll.

 

Note that the Scroll itself is not a slot in the VPP, though the ability used to create it (the UBO) is. Also note that the ability to create the Scroll is only 22 Active Points, and fits easily in the 30 point VPP.

 

(Edited 7/14 to fix an outright mistake.)

 

(Edited 7/15 to remove No Skill Roll to change pool, to add Incantations to scroll, and to change Concentrate to Concentrate Throughout for Extra Time.)

[Killer Shrike]

Ive always adjudicated that "Ephemeral Items", defined as any Independent magic item with non-Recoverable Charges, cost money like mundane equipment rather than character points as normal. Market price is based on AP * RC (Active Points * Real Cost), +/- based upon availability, supply & demand, and markup/wholesale.

[austenandrews]

Normally I loathe the "Transform panacea" approach, but Transform does have rules for adding powers. You can use those mechanics to build a one-shot power, for which the Focus is the scroll or potion. Inherently there's no great mechanical limit to how many scrolls you can create or how powerful the spell can be, except whatever Limitations you place on the Transform and the Focus. (Of course as a GM I would enforce strict limitations for both of those.)

 

-AA

[Lord Liaden]

Dean Shomshak wrote up an approach to alchemical potions in both an Adventurers Club article and The Ultimate Super Mage which I've used for both potions and scrolls: Create these items as spells which rely on Expendable Foci, representing alchemical ingredients, scroll parchment and ink, etc. Each of these "spells" would have the Trigger Advantage (+1/4) for drinking the potion, reading the scroll etc.; and the Usable on Self and One Other Advantage (+1/4) to allow the item to be passed on (either directly or indirectly) for someone else to use.

 

The items often take Extra Time to prepare, but after preparation the magic is "stored" and ready to use at any time. There's no limit to how many of these items may be prepared ahead of time, since Trigger has no time limit. This also allows alchemists and scribes to sell their wares without expending XP on Independent items.

[CrosshairCollie]

Here's an idea (and I don't know if it's been said here) ... create it like a normal item, spending XP, but rather than saying Charges Don't Recover, say that the charges are difficult to recover (aka you have to remix the potion/rewrite the scroll). Make it through a Focus, but NOT an independent one; if the focus is stolen, you get it back by recreating the potion/scroll. As a universal focus, it could be stolen or handed around as needed.

[Gary]

Summon the scrolls and potions. The special effect of the Summons is that you have to create them in a lab instead of appearing out of nowhere.

 

Dirt cheap, but highly abusive.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Gary

Summon the scrolls and potions. The special effect of the Summons is that you have to create them in a lab instead of appearing out of nowhere.

 

Dirt cheap, but highly abusive.

Also techincally illegal. Summon doesnt conjure items; it conjures creatures (and other things stated as entities).

[Markdoc]

Since 5th Ed has legitimised naked advantages, the easiest way to do this is to allow casters to buy a "scroll-making/potion-brewing" power allowing them to add UBO and trigger to their spells. You could either do it one-spell-at-a-time or buy the "affects multiple spells of a special effect (known spells)" to have single generic skill. The mage will need to buy this up to a sufficient level to cover their biggest spell, but that's OK: in most games it would be easier to make a simple "healing-lite" potion than a "re-animate the ancient long-dead Hero" scroll anyway.

 

An alternative idea if naked advantages offend you (and they do offend me): you could buy Aid with the "add advantages" adder, and "affects two powers of the same special effect", and use it to pump up your multi or VPP and the chosen spell, so as to include those advantages (this last part is not needed if characters buy spells outside frameworks).

 

I agree with Archer on one thing: the independant limitation should not be used on one use items. When I read that suggestion from Hero a long while back i just thought to myself "My, that's a stupid idea" and gave it not a second thought.

 

OTOH, I can't go with the VPP as suggested. 1. It's illegal as written (any limitations on the pool control cost must also apply to the powers: like the one week extra time). Also it should cost 60 points for the pool, since that cost cannot be limited. That doesn't mean you can't choose to use it as a GM, but I like to stick as close to the basic rules set as I can. If #1 does not move you there's 2. It's horribly open to abuse. House rules are one thing. House rules that enter the game with a big sign saying "whip me, beat me, make me write bad cheques" is quite another.

 

If you use a VPP fpr spells, it allows you mutate your spells to include trigger and UBO anyway - no extra rules needed. If the triggered power has charges, then continuing and/or persistent is not needed, which keeps the cost down a bit. And according to The Steve, triggered powers do not take up space in your VPP or a slot in your multi: once set they are essentially cast and you can move the points elsewhere.

 

cheers, Mark

[Snarf]

My problem with using the VPP is that it allows everyone to be potion brewers for free. I think they should be charges some points, to distinguish potion makers from non potion makers, unless every mage makes potions in that campaign. Maybe make the potion brewers buy an enhancement on their control cost or a skill or something.

[Talon]

If someone wanted to be a blacksmith, I'd never require a Usable By Others power...they just need the right skills and materials.

 

If my campaign permits magic items (or just potions and scrolls) to be made in a similar manner, then I'd handle it in a similar manner.

 

The new FH has some ideas which can at least indirectly be applied to this problem as well.

[Heroman]

Actually, for the single shots I like the idea of a Naked Advantage (Trigger) the best, combined with Universal Foci (expendable). I don't know if you would need Charges (FRED p174 seems to indicate that being a focus may be enough to allow multiple casts).

p190 seems to indicate multiple foci where any can be used is merely a degrading of accessibility (becomes Inaccessible). Tack on ET, RSR, and the like, and you could make several levels of this as pseudo-powers (for different AP caps).

 

-Heroman

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Markdoc

OTOH, I can't go with the VPP as suggested. 1. It's illegal as written (any limitations on the pool control cost must also apply to the powers: like the one week extra time). Also it should cost 60 points for the pool, since that cost cannot be limited. That doesn't mean you can't choose to use it as a GM, but I like to stick as close to the basic rules set as I can. If #1 does not move you there's

 

1. In my example, the Limitations on the control cost did apply to the Power. In fact, I did hit all the required Limitations on the Create Scroll; Extra Time: 1 Week, Focus, and Requires Skill Roll.

 

2. It's horribly open to abuse. House rules are one thing. House rules that enter the game with a big sign saying "whip me, beat me, make me write bad cheques" is quite another.

 

In the example I gave, there's lots of ways to keep it from being abused (the extra time requirement, for one). But ultimately, the GM is responsible for making sure the rules, even the house rules, aren't abused. The idea is that the GM sets up guidelines for using the pool in this way.

 

And it's not exactly a house rule. It's right there in black and white under the description of Usable On Others on FREd. p. 177. UOO itself has a STOP sign, so any GM intending to use this should know to keep a close eye on it.