Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

[pawsplay]

Let me first of all confess that I don't own the latest Fantasy Hero, so if some of this has been covered, I apologize. In that case, just give me the gist of the options offered.

 

I've been musing on a Hero conversion of D&D. One problem area is spell memorization. I'm not interested in a slavish conversion of one mechanic to another, but I would like to make things work in HERO as though they came from a story written from D&D. That is, generally correct.

 

Delayed Effect is presented as the default option for prepared spellcasting. However, I've noticed that if you apply Gestures or Incantations to a power, that applies at preparation time, not when you cast. The same for Concentration.

 

VPP spells don't have this problem at all, but then you have the matter of defining spell selection. To me, it feels inelegant.

 

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[GAZZA]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

I've been musing on a Hero conversion of D&D. One problem area is spell memorization. I'm not interested in a slavish conversion of one mechanic to another, but I would like to make things work in HERO as though they came from a story written from D&D. That is, generally correct.

 

Delayed Effect is presented as the default option for prepared spellcasting. However, I've noticed that if you apply Gestures or Incantations to a power, that applies at preparation time, not when you cast. The same for Concentration.

 

VPP spells don't have this problem at all, but then you have the matter of defining spell selection. To me, it feels inelegant.

Delayed Effect also has the disadvantage that it doesn't actually stop you casting the spells "in full" - it's just quicker to do it beforehand. Unless you have Extra Time and/or Concentration as fairly common limitations Delayed Effect is arguably not that useful.

 

VPPs are the traditional way to do it. I'm not entirely clear what your issue with a VPP is - is it having to define what spells are available at the start of each day? (I would have thought that's what "prepared spellcasting" meant). Is it that you need some mechanism of defining what spells you can use a VPP to represent (eg a spellbook)? You can port across D&D spellbooks pretty much without change if that's your issue (there's no limit on how many spells a wizard can know, only how many he does know - and the equivalent for clerics or druids can be something like "only for spells granted by the deity (-0)").

 

Not a huge fan of Vancian magic myself, but that's purely subjective of course.

[OddHat]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

http://www.killershrike.com has tons of material on this. Worth looking into, and will save you many hours.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

Well, one of the things that people tend to overlook as far as Vancian/D&D type magic is that effectively the spell is cast first thing in the morning and has a trigger to allow it to come into effect later on in the day. All of the preparatory work is done then and the trigger may be focussed through some small items that are consumed in the process.

 

As such the HERO equivalent would be to have the spells bought a limited number of times per day with a trigger. All of the spells would be cast straight off and then the trick would be to activate the triggers when you wanted the spell effects.

 

Killer Shrike does provide a lot of pre-made stuff that it would be sensible to use even if you produce something unique to your game. Save you a lot of time.

 

 

Doc

[pawsplay]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

I found Killer Shrike's stuff and there is a lot of good ideas there.

 

One issue I have with the VPP approach is the spellbook. What is a spellbook? Something defined by fiat? A perk? A possession? IIRC, Killer Shrike's approach dispenses with "learning spells" and simply defines a number of spells known based on INT.

[MorpheousXO]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

I like killer shrike's method for both prepared casting and spontaneous casting. It works pretty much just like in dnd, and he even offers a third option for vancian magic. Not only that but he's got like all the spells already converted. For a little different flavor, Thia Halmades is also converting dnd spells. Ja ne.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

I found Killer Shrike's stuff and there is a lot of good ideas there.

 

One issue I have with the VPP approach is the spellbook. What is a spellbook? Something defined by fiat? A perk? A possession? IIRC, Killer Shrike's approach dispenses with "learning spells" and simply defines a number of spells known based on INT.

 

Might want to read it again; that's not accurate. There is a lengthy section on learning spells (and creating new spells) in this document:

 

Wizards

 

 

 

As far as a "spellbook", its just part of the lims on the VPP:

 

WIZARD MAGIC VPP CONTROL COST

 

* Only Arcane Magic (-1/2)

* Only Change Spells With Spell Book & Study Time (-1/2)

* All Spells Must Have 1 Charge (-1/4)

* Variable Limitation (-1/2; each Spell must take -1 of Limitations from Extra Time, Concentration, Incantation, Gesture, Limited Range, Restrainable By Spell Components Pouch, or RSR: Magic Skill vs. Spell Resistance in any combination at a MINIMUM)

 

Control Cost per Spell Level (15 Pool) = 2.5 Real Points

Total Cost per Spell Level (15 Pool) = 17.5 Real Points

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

I've never seen the term "Vancian" before, so I did some research. Neat! I never knew the origins of the magic system in D&D before. Very interesting.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

I've never seen the term "Vancian" before' date=' so I did some research. Neat! I never knew the origins of the magic system in D&D before. Very interesting.[/quote']

 

Yeah, if you ever read the Dying Earth you'll quirk an eyebrow about spells like The Excellent Prismatic Spray.

 

If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, Gary was never shy with his adulation.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

This is what I am using for my Wilderlands of High Fantasy campaign, where I pretty much run straight Dungeon Crawl Classics. This is a classic high fantasy world from the 70's that is presented in huge detail. It has been a lot of fun to play. We use d20 equipment and economy as well, although for magic items we use the system I use in Narosia.

______________________________________________

Magic

 

Magic Skill

 

Each school of magic (see below) requires a separate Knowledge skill, with a base of 11- and costing 2/1, it can be based on INT costing 3/1. Magic skill is only used to mitigate the standard limitations (Gestures, Incantations, etc.) applied to spells. Otherwise a roll is not required for basic casting. Magic skill is not required to learn a spell, although it does govern the maximum active points. Anyone can make a magic skill roll without training at EGO Roll -3.

 

Spellcraft: Analyze (Magic) (INT, 3/2) is the skill used to invent spells, understand magical effects, and apply magical theory. Without access to proper texts it is unlikely a character will be able to create a spell of any significant amount of power. This skill also functions as an Analyze skill.

 

PS: Wizard or Cleric represents a character's overall knowledge and skill associated with professional spellcasting. Any rolls required to exercise guild or order rank are based on this skill. This skill represents all of the practical knowledge of being a mage, finding work, conducting one's self appropriately within any guild structures, and knowledge of any mercantile aspect of magery (in which case it compliments Trading).

 

KS: Mystic World (2/1): This represents knowledge of people, places, items, and other things of import to the arcane world. If it has relevance to either Spells, Arcane Society, Magic skill, or SS: Thaumaturgy, this skill will cover its knowledge.

 

KS: Divine Canon (2/1): Like KS: Mystic World, this skill is all thing relevant to a specific divine order, it's history, teachings, philosophy, secrets, and so on.

 

KS: Planes, Demons, Dragons, Mystical Creatures, Undead, Artifacts, etc. (2/1): Specific knowledge of interest to mages and clerics.

 

Language: Arcane (1-4 pts, +1 for alphabet): Fluency is required to invent new spells at 30 active points per level of fluency; at fluency 4 there is no maximum . Knowledge of the alphabet and fluency levelx30 Active Points is required to read scrolls or spellbooks. When casting from a text if the fluency required differs from that of the caster a Magic skill roll is required at -1 per 10 active points. For each level of difference beyond 1 assess an additional -2 penalty.

 

In order to develop magic skill beyond 13-, the caster must be affiliated with an appropriate organization (guild or divine order) or have a good enough teacher that is willing to risk guild condemnation for teaching you.

Magical Guild/Divine Order Rank

 

• Primary School of Magic
  
• Professional Skill: Wizard/Cleric
  
  
• Spellcraft (Wizards) or KS: Divine Canon (Clerics)
  
• Ardor (Clerics)

Apprentice/Acolyte (11-) = 1 point

Senior Apprentice/Acolyte (Adept) (12- to 13-) = 2 points

Journeyman/Priest (14-) = 3 points

Senior Journeyman/Prefect (15- to 16-) = 4 points

Master/High Priest (17-) = 5 points

Magister/Prelate= 6 points (political position)

Archmagister/Archpriest= 7 points (political position)

Lord Magister/Patriarch (Matriarch) = 8 points (political position)

 

In addition, members of a divine order must have an equal number of points in Ardor

Maximum Active Points in a Spell

 

Base Maximum = EGO + 5

Multiplier: 11- = x2, 14- = x3, 17- = x4, 20- = x6, 23- = x8

Maximum Charges for a Spell

 

Max Active Points/Active Points in Spell

 

• A caster with a 14- skill, 15 EGO, could have up to 60 active point spells.
  
• He could specify 6 charges on a 10 Active Point spell, 4 on 15, 3 on 20, 2 on 30, and 1 on 60.
  
• That doesn't mean he can have only 1 60 active point spell, just that any 60 active point spell he has can only have 1 charge.

Spells

 

The distinction between a spell and an extraordinary ability is a subtle one. The limitations Spell, Charges, and Lingering Signature are only available to those who have studied magic (i.e. Magic Skill). Additionally, powers classified as spells must have Charges.

 

 

Multipowers may be used using the standard rules provided the powers in the multipower are all variations of the same power (e.g. 6 different types of fire attacks, but not wall of fire or flight).

All spells require the following limitations:

• Spell (-1/2)
  
• Lingering Signature (All spells have a signature which can be tracked and identified to a single mage. Casting is +4 PER to magical senses.; -1/2)
  
• Charges (1 to 8, possibly continuing) (-2 to -1/4)
  
• Gestures (-1/4)
  
• Incantations (-1/4).
  
• Must Use at Full Power (-1/4) where appropriate

Additionally, spells may require spell components, adding an additional -1 limitation (OIF, Fragile, Expendable) to the spell. Drawing a component takes a half-phase action. Spell components are general in nature, and cost 1sp per casting and weigh 1 oz.Requires Magic Roll may not be taken as a limitation. The Magic skill is used to overcome the limitations Spell, Gestures, Incatiations, and other restrictions (roll overcomes -1/4 limitation, -2 per additional -1/4 limitation to overcome, -1 per 10 active points in the spell). However, when using the Magic

 

Disciplines

 

Disciplines are spells that have been mastered so completely they are considered extraordinary abilities. They do not have the Spell, or Charges limitations, must have Lingering Signature, and otherwise are built as standard powers. A mage may have no more than a handful of these per college of magic, and the GM is free to limit the types of disciplines available based on rank within the guild.

 

You can have a number of Disciplines equal to Magic Skill/3 - 3. Disciplines may be bought to 0 END.

Rituals

 

Rituals are guarded secrets within a college of magic. They are normal spells, but may also take Window of Opportunity, Megascale, Extra Time, Ritual, and other appropriate limitations. They are limited to once per day. Raise Dead, Wish, and other types of spells are good examples of rituals.

Cantrips

 

Magic skill may be used to improvise any power of 5 active points or less, for a single phase (no constant powers), if the caster knows the arcane language. Many mages learn their spells with Extra Time and Concentration, but these are not required.

Encumbrance Penalty

 

If the caster has an ENC Penalty, all spells will require a simple success/failure magic skill roll modified by the ENC Penalty. If the caster attempts to overcome limitations of the spell as described above, the ENC Penalty is added into the roll as well. The penalty, as is applied to spellcasting, is reduced by 1/10 the caster's EGO, so a caster with a 10 EGO can ignore a -1 penalty, while a caster with a 15 can ignore -2.

 

 

If you read the above rules, an average man could learn a 15 active point spell, has 10 points of Magicka with which to cast it, and recovers 2 points per Recovery (or post 12). This requires no magic skill, no spellcraft, no guild affiliation, and no professional skill.

 

Arcane Foci

 

Spellcasters are able to focus power more effectively through items. A caster can have one focus per discipline with the following effects:

• Wands (10gp, 1 day) = +5 active points in a single Discipline (attack powers only); fragile, concealable (PER +0)
  
  
• Rods/Symbols (25gp, 2 days) = +10 active points in a single Discipline (attack powers only); PER Mod +2 to conceal, durable, club +2d6 HA (STR Min 5, 1H)
  
  
• Staves (50gp, 4 days) = +15 active points in a single Discipline (attack powers only); PER Mod +6 to conceal, durable, +4d6 HA (STR Min 8, 2H)
  
  
• Fetishes (amulets, belts, clothing, etc., 10gp, 1day) = +5 active points in a single Discipline (non attack powers)

Arcane foci cost the character no points, but do cost money and time to attune. Attunement involves exercising the discipline through the focus for 1 hour and then letting it rest. Larger foci take more days to attune than smaller ones.

These items aren't foci in that the mage can still use the Discipline without them.

Spell Books

 

Characters may have as many spells as they like in personal spellbook. Each spell is built as an Independent (-2), Extra Time (1 Turn, -1 1/4), Requires Light (-1/4), Bulky (-1/4) in addition to standard spell limitaitons. Spells in the grimoire may be attuned by swapping them from attuned spells (i.e. spells paid for in full character points) into the grimoire. This process takes 1 minute per active point exchanged. For example, if a caster wants to swap a 30 active points of attuned spells he will have to spend 30 minutes meditating and attuning, uninterrupted, to do so. This then moves the previously attuned spells into the grimoire, and moves the grimoire spell into active use. The penalty to Spellcraft is -1 per 10 active points transferred. Once the total time has been determined, the caster may take extra time by moving down the time chart for the total time.

An average spell book has a mass of 4lbs and has 200 pages costing 10sp. A 10 active point spell requires 1 page. Each doubling of active points = +1 page.

 

 

 

1-10 = 1pg, 11-20 = 2pgs, 21-40 = 3 pgs, 41-80 = 4 pgs, 81-160 = 5 pgs, 161-320 = 6 pgs, 321-640 = 7 pgs. The materials required to transfer the spell are gold dust ink, resulting in a cost of 29sp per page (18sp for ink + 40sp for gold dust = 2 pages).

Magical Healing

 

This is an interesting area of magic. The Healing power is available via Transmutation. However, the ability to heal damage caused by negative energy, generally associated with the undead, is only available to those who can channel divine energy. Additionally, raising someone from the dead also requires the intervention of the gods, although skillful conjurors have managed to grab a soul before it has flown to far from its body, bind it long enough for the body to be healed, and restore an individual to life. Channeling divine energy is an act of Conjuration, and requires the tacit approval of a god, generally only available to those with Ardor and knowledge of the appropriate rituals.

 

Religion, Divine Ritual & Ardor

 

Many gods exist within the Wilderlands, and religions are many, including worship of Gaia. Most clerics associated with their orders are spellcasters, generally focusing on Conjuration, Enchantment, and Divination, although Druids of Gaia are more Transmutation, Divination, and Evocation.

 

 

Ardor, represents ones connection to a particular god. Ardor costs 1 character point per 1d6 (Luck: Non Concious Control -2, Only in specific god's sphere of influence -1 1/2, Only when serving the god's purposes -1/2). Applying Ardor is a mechanic representing divine intervention at the will of the god-being. The other purpose Ardor serves is to represent the maximum power of any Divine Ritual known by the character.

 

Rituals are spell like abilities bought with Charges, Extra Time (Full Phase minimum), Gestures (throughout if appropriate), Incantations (throughout if appropriate), Concentration (DCV 0, throughout if appropriate). Optionally can have Window of Opportunity, Ritual, Gradual Effect, and where appropriate Visible. All rituals are subject to GM approval and must reflect some aspect of the god.

 

 

The effect of these rituals should be to represent divine gifts associated with the god. Lay On Hands, Cure Disease, Divine Power, sacrifices, etc. For the most part they can be any ability that fits the god's influence. Beyond Ardor a character need only pay for the ritual, allowing non-spellcasters to acquire useful magical abilities.

 

Typically these abilities are only granted as a reward for completing a quest for the god, or as a mark of rank within a divine order, although they may be granted for a very short period by praying at an appropriate shrine.

 

Maximum Active Points

 

1d6: 5, 2d6: 10, 3d6: 20, 4d6: 40, 5d6: 80, 6d6 or more: Unlimited

Schools of Magic (Detail)

 

Abjuration

 

Abjurations are protective spells. They create physical or magical barriers, negate magical or physical abilities, harm trespassers, or even banish the subject of the spell to another plane of existence.

Conjuration

 

Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you, actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane, heal , transport creatures or objects over great distances, or create objects or effects on the spot.

Divination

 

Divination spells enable you to learn secrets long forgotten, to predict the future, to find hidden things, and to foil deceptive spells.

Enchantment

 

Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior. All enchantments are mind-affecting spells.

Evocation

 

Evocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. In effect, they create something out of nothing. Many of these spells produce spectacular effects, and evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage.

Illusion

 

Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.

Necromancy

 

Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force. Spells involving undead creatures make up a large part of this school.

Transmutation

 

Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition.

Using the Fantasy Hero Grimoire and Grimoire II

 

This is actually pretty easy. Nearly every spell in the books uses an expendable focus and Requires Skill Roll. Based on the requirements above, Requires Skill Roll is replaced by Lingering Signature and the focus is replaced by Arcane Focus and Side Effects. If the value of the focus limitation in the books is only -1, due to the focus being common, you can use either the Lengthy or Attentive Spell costs since those add the extra -1/4 needed to represent the Side Effects limitation in the guidelines above. This is just to simplify looking at the books for spell cost info on the fly - when adding the spell to the character's grimoire just apply all the standard limitations as normal.

 

In short, the grimoire spell costs as listed are almost 100% the same as for this magic system. The spell summary information (Effect, Casting time, range, Magic Roll Penalty, etc.) is completely accurate so this is a very good way to get a sense of a spell's power or for creating magical adversaries/allies on the fly.

[Mike W]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

Use multiple multipowers, each one with a limited number of charges. One MP for each spell level the character knows. Put charges on the MP as a whole. This represents the number of spells they can memorize at each level. Then each spell is a rote they must learn and which takes up one slot in the appropriate MP. The biggest problem you're likely to have is that when you convert them over from D&D the spell costs may not line up well - so you may have to do some fudging about that.

 

As for each spell, just build each one individually as needed and it has whatever advantages and limits are necessary to replicate the spell.

[GAZZA]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

Interesting. Much further than I would go - personally, if I found myself wanting to match the D&D mechanics that exactly, I'd question why I didn't just go play D&D - but to each his own.

[pawsplay]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

The idea is not to replicate the D&D mechanics, but to replicate some aspects of the D&D game. The point, precisely, is to replace D&D mechanics with a different system with different mechanics.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

Use multiple multipowers, each one with a limited number of charges. One MP for each spell level the character knows. Put charges on the MP as a whole. This represents the number of spells they can memorize at each level. Then each spell is a rote they must learn and which takes up one slot in the appropriate MP. The biggest problem you're likely to have is that when you convert them over from D&D the spell costs may not line up well - so you may have to do some fudging about that.

 

As for each spell, just build each one individually as needed and it has whatever advantages and limits are necessary to replicate the spell.

 

Yeah, I have a version like that too...

 

Sorcery

[GAZZA]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

If you're replicating aspects of the D&D game, what aspects are there to the D&D game other than mechanical aspects? The description of using 10 Multipowers to replicate spells is definitely mechanical; the intent appears to have been to make it match the way D&D "does" spellcasting as perfectly as possible - ie not different mechanics, but near identical mechanics.

 

If it is just the general "flavour" that you want to preserve, then I think that goes too far. D&D divides spells into levels because it's D&D's way of expressing power differences. Hero has a different way of expressing power differences (Active Points, Real Points, Damage Classes - heck, it has lots of different ways). If you're coming over to Hero anyway, why not use Hero's methods of differentiating rather than porting from D&D? Are you proposing to port the idea of character level as well?

[pawsplay]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

I'd like to port over well known and loved spells, creatures, and other elements of the D&D world. I'd like to replicate wizardry... not in a note for note fashion, but in a way that the way it runs in HERO and the way it runs in D&D could both be the mechanics behind a spellcasting in a book, say.

 

What converting to HERO would get me would be:

- martial arts maneuvers

- much simpler constructs (CSLs, talents, powers, maenuvers) for high level combat, as opposed to dozens of feats, iterative attacks, etc.

- non indefinitely scaling hit points

- more flexible character creation options

- a restoration of magic items to the rarity and uniqueness they had in previous editions of the game to 3.5

- a more fluent skill system

- less killing things for XP

- less reliance on scads of magical items

 

In addition, the conversion process is a fun mental exercise.

 

I don't want to retain levels, although I've been musing on different ways of converting levels to create a HERO character. In fact, one of the appeals of HERO is the ability to assign abilities appropriately, rather than having to accept a predetermined destiny for the advancement of a character. For instance, in HERO, I could design a real oaf that had value as a character, whereas such a character is just a general liability in D&D.

[JmOz]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

Personaly, and take it for what it is worth, but my least favorite part of D&D spell casting was the daily limits, I would just tie it to END or END Reserve and go that way, makes the low level mage more consistantly usefull, bu that is just me...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

If you're replicating aspects of the D&D game' date=' what aspects [b']are[/b] there to the D&D game other than mechanical aspects? The description of using 10 Multipowers to replicate spells is definitely mechanical; the intent appears to have been to make it match the way D&D "does" spellcasting as perfectly as possible - ie not different mechanics, but near identical mechanics.

 

If it is just the general "flavour" that you want to preserve, then I think that goes too far. D&D divides spells into levels because it's D&D's way of expressing power differences. Hero has a different way of expressing power differences (Active Points, Real Points, Damage Classes - heck, it has lots of different ways). If you're coming over to Hero anyway, why not use Hero's methods of differentiating rather than porting from D&D? Are you proposing to port the idea of character level as well?

 

A) There is no "HERO" method of differentiating per se. You can have any sort of Magic System(s) you like and they are all equally "HERO".

 

Some people like the way D&D does magic.

 

C) If you like "Vancian" style magic, good news...the HERO System can model that.

 

D) If you don't like "Vancian" style magic, good news...the HERO System can model other systems too.

 

 

The HERO System is the Borg of games. If you like a particular mechanic or a particular feel, theres no reason not to assimilate it. That doesn't make the HERO System some other game, it just demonstrates that the HERO System is flexible and can model the effects you want to create.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

I'd like to port over well known and loved spells, creatures, and other elements of the D&D world. I'd like to replicate wizardry... not in a note for note fashion, but in a way that the way it runs in HERO and the way it runs in D&D could both be the mechanics behind a spellcasting in a book, say.

 

What converting to HERO would get me would be:

- martial arts maneuvers

- much simpler constructs (CSLs, talents, powers, maenuvers) for high level combat, as opposed to dozens of feats, iterative attacks, etc.

- non indefinitely scaling hit points

- more flexible character creation options

- a restoration of magic items to the rarity and uniqueness they had in previous editions of the game to 3.5

- a more fluent skill system

- less killing things for XP

- less reliance on scads of magical items

 

In addition, the conversion process is a fun mental exercise.

 

I don't want to retain levels, although I've been musing on different ways of converting levels to create a HERO character. In fact, one of the appeals of HERO is the ability to assign abilities appropriately, rather than having to accept a predetermined destiny for the advancement of a character. For instance, in HERO, I could design a real oaf that had value as a character, whereas such a character is just a general liability in D&D.

 

You may or may not have already discovered this for yourself, but I provide a lot of 3e conversion materials here:

 

Conversion 3e

 

Specifically, this page collects many links for a GM:

 

DM to GM

 

while this is an 8 Step process for converting characters:

 

Conversion Steps

 

And if you happen to have the Ptolus book, I provide some converted material from that book here:

 

Ptolus HERO

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

I think I'm in the minority on the boards here, in that I quite like Vancian flavored magic systems, but prefer to use the Delayed Effect or Trigger advantages rather than the Charge model.

 

An interesting approach someone suggested is to base a D&D flavored Wizardry style around a OAF, Independent Spellbook MP, with a Major Side effect that if spells are cast directly from the book rather than memorized they are "Expened" and must be recovered by being retranscribed either from another Book or by a Scroll (which are also Independent Items, with 1 Charge which never Recovers, whose points may be used in leiu of casting to add the spell to an eligible Spellbook).

With the points permenantly invested in the Spellbook, it makes scrolls and grimoires the loot du jour for wizards, thusly making aquisition of new spells often free of actual XP expenditures. "Spell Level" increases are represented by investing additional points in your books MP reserve, to handle higher power spells. Increasing proficiency at memorizing spells can be done a number of ways, from Limited Int to increase the number of "Slots" as described under Delayed Effect, or the option (also from Delayed Effect) to double the number of slots for each +1/4... This is cumbersome as written, but if inverted mecahnically (so each +1/4 halves the number of Slots the spell occupies) works wonderfully to represent proficency in a particular spell. Proficinecy of this sort can also be used as a requirement that must be met before increaseing the AP in the book, that sort of thing. Trigger can work just as well, especially with all the triksty options available these days.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

Delayed Effect is a terrible mess and should be stricken from the rulebook in my opinion (search for other threads for breakdowns on why). Triggers can work very well; I use them in several other non-Vancian Magic Systems on my site in various ways.

[CourtFool]

Charges vs. Cost END

 

In my opinion, Charges seem arbitrary and just don't 'feel right'. I much prefer some kind of END or mana design. However, this 'simple' design decision vastly changes magic application.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

The point on the system I posted was to essentially model D&D magic to the point where you could look at a stat block and know that the spells listed are what the character has.

 

The one thing I like about D&D magic is the resource management aspect. Yes it sucks to be "out of spells" but it's also interesting to try and plan when and where you use particular magics. I included the Cantrips and Disciplines to give mages an ability they can use all the time, using END, but the vast array of spells will be charges based.

 

Magic systems are definitely an issue of taste, and there is nothing wrong with a charges based system. Is it for everyone? No, but that's not the point. I like the minimal prep that is required to pick up a D&D module and run it with minimal modification.

 

Thanks to the group that translated levels 1-5 of spells to Hero. That has made running a game in Wilderlands even easier.

 

One of the other reasons I like the charges system is it eliminates the issue with Aid spells. When I was running my campaign before, I had a caster that had nothing but Aids. The entire group, since it was END based, was constantly walking around at +7 STR, +7 PD, among other things. Now, the spell still exists, and is cheaper point-wise, but the player has to be more strategic in casting it. Choices are exciting, repetitive actions are not. Playing this way essentially allows me to play D&D old-school, or even Hackmaster style, but leveraging Hero for everything it does wonderfully and much better than those other games.

[GAZZA]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

One of the other reasons I like the charges system is it eliminates the issue with Aid spells. When I was running my campaign before' date=' I had a caster that had nothing but Aids. The entire group, since it was END based, was constantly walking around at +7 STR, +7 PD, among other things.[/quote']

It's interesting you would mention that as a flaw, as my experience with D&D suggests that the equivalent of that is quite common (for example with things like Polymorph and Shapechange).

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Musing on D&D spellcasting conversion

 

It's interesting you would mention that as a flaw' date=' as my experience with D&D suggests that the equivalent of that is quite common (for example with things like Polymorph and Shapechange). [/quote']

 

I'm not sure what you mean. That Polymorph are too powerful? Polymorph Other can certainly end a combat fast, to be sure, but I'm curious what you mean.