Pool like effect without a pool

[Lord Mhoram]

This is something I was trying to come up with while working on my fantasy game, but because it is a build thing, I'm posting here. I don't see any way to legally do with anything close to a reasonable cost - so I am throwing this out for HEROdom assembled to help with.

 

I have a workaround, but it seems kludgy, and I will post it later, but don't want to bias anyone with that idea now.

 

Here is the effect I am reasoning from.

 

The magic system in the world is basically a big multipower and the spells are the slots. You learn a spell you know it, and can cast it at any time you like. Easy enough. Every caster gets the real costs of their MP reserve in free spells to begin with and can purchase more. The multipower reserve has -1 in limitations.

 

Then I had this idea that some very special people can temporarily learn a spell for a day, like a D&D wizard learning a spell from a spellbook. They can only do one, and what specific spell it is can change from day to day.

 

This would be best duplicated with a Variable Power Pool.

 

However buying a Pool for one spell is ridiculous, and given how the points fall out, if someone were to just switch their Multipower to Pool, they could double their multipower reserve, and gain something like 10 or 15 spells normally for that cost.

 

So given that structure, how would you go about building an ability for someone to have a single spell slot that they can switch every day?

[Maccabe]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

Why can't you do it with VARIABLE POWER POOL with the limit of 1/day only and Only from pregenerated list of spells ?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

Why can't you do it with VARIABLE POWER POOL with the limit of 1/day only and Only from pregenerated list of spells ?

 

This effect is only for a very few people, and the standard active point spell cost is 60 - so you are looking at 75 pts to do it with a VPP, or so, to be able to cast one spell. That seems excessive.

 

The multipower/slots works for just about everything, and I didn't want to change the base idea for the magic system, because in every other way, it fits perfectly. Hence the thread title.

[Maccabe]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

What about making the spells a 1 use Bulky Focus with Expendability. PC finds a spell book, casts a spell from it then that spell is lost.

In a Multipower the slot cost would be almost next to nothing in this case.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

Well, since you're not terribly concerned about "legality" , my suggestion would be to build that switchable slot as though it were a Variable Power Pool within a Multipower. I have a couple of suggestions for how to go about that, the first being cheaper but also less powerful: Buy the VPP so that the total Active Points of the pool plus the Control Cost equals the Active Points of the Multipower, apply whatever Common Limitations you would want the Powers in the pool to have to the Control Cost to get the Real Points, then divide that as normal to get the cost of the slot. If the VPP is sufficiently Limited (and it sounds from your description that it would be) that may not be too unbalancing.

 

Here's another iteration of the same concept that would be more balanced, and would also give you more Active Points to play with in that switchable slot: Buy the VPP Reserve up to the Active Points in the Multipower as a slot in the MP, and then pay for the Control Cost of that slot outside of the Multipower. It's not unprecedented for Powers outside a MP to add to one of the slots, so at least you'd be halfway to legal. It would be more expensive, but that's fair for the utility you gain, and Common Limitations would reduce the cost.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

Well' date=' since you're not terribly concerned about "legality" , my suggestion would be to build that switchable slot as though it were a Variable Power Pool within a Multipower. [/quote']

 

I've thought about that one, but not for this particular thing. That is one way I thought about doing cantrips. The cantrip slot means smaller spells, but a wide variety of them.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

Okay then, how about this: Make the Multipower slot in question a Summon, with the item Summoned being the desired spell. Since a creature Summoned under normal circumstances has to "go away" before it can be replaced by another creature, this gives you an existing precedent for only having one spell in the slot at a time.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

Okay then' date=' how about this: Make the Multipower slot in question a Summon, with the item Summoned being the desired spell. Since a creature Summoned under normal circumstances has to "go away" before it can be replaced by another creature, this gives you an existing precedent for only having one spell in the slot at a time.[/quote']

 

That is cool. I may use it.

 

The kludge I had in mind was this:

Cramming - it gives you 1 pt in a skill (a familiarity).

So 5 pts will allow the character to study any 1 pt spell (slot cost of 1).

I'm thinking 10 pts would allow a 2 pt spell or two 1 pt.

 

But it sill seems kludgy to me, and was trying to find something a little more legal, or elegant at the very least.

[OddHat]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

I'd say that those very rare wizards just happen to have a VPP. Sure, it costs more, but then that's why they're so rare.

 

Alternative:

 

Power Skill works fine for this. Give them Power Skill +10 (23 points total) and rule as GM that their one prepared spell per day is all that skill can be used for. If you're feeling especially generous, let them have a -1 limitation on their power skill since it's not really being used to improvise spells but just to prepare one, bringing the cost down to 11 points.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

I'd say that those very rare wizards just happen to have a VPP. Sure, it costs more, but then that's why they're so rare.

 

Alternative:

 

Power Skill works fine for this. Give them Power Skill +10 (23 points total) and rule as GM that their one prepared spell per day is all that skill can be used for. If you're feeling especially generous, let them have a -1 limitation on their power skill since it's not really being used to improvise spells but just to prepare one, bringing the cost down to 11 points.

 

Woooo. I like that. This is exactly the kind of thing Powerskill was created to handle. And being an old time hand at the game, I tend to forget it... *sigh* And combining your idea and what I was thinking, the powerskill allows the character to use his cramming to load a spell slot, but it can't cram anything else. That is close enough to book legal for what I wanted.

 

Thanks.

[Gary]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

You can always go with the last resort of the cheesy lack of imagination scoundrel. Transform.

 

Pay for 1 slot in your 60 pt multipower and Transform stick into Wand of X spell or paper into Scroll of Y spell or vial into Potion of Z spell. And limit the slot to 1 charge per day or however many times you want to allow it.

[Hierax]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

Lord Mhoram,

 

Try using something like Killer Shrike's Cascading Multi-Power Pools where you get a discount on the higher level spells based on the lower level ones that you've already paid for; just have the Cascading discount (-x Limitation) jump from the MPP to the VPP that you want. Fiddle with the Limitation value on your VPP to give you the discount that you want so that your spell casters are only paying for the difference in power not the full VPP cost.

 

Anyway, here's some links:

Magic System of Multiple Overlapping Multi-Power Pools

 

Sample Character

Hmm, looks like he now calls it a "Spontaneous Casting Discount" I must have been thinking of an earlier draft. oh well, I hope that this helps.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

Looks like you already have what you want.

 

I may have gone along the lines of having a slot in the multipower which was variable effect - so the real cost of the slot would be real cost of power/2.5.

 

That follows the logic of the multipower slots - a 60 point ultra slot costs 6 points, a 60 point multi slot costs 12 points and a 60 point variable slot costs 24 points.

 

yup, it is expensive but it provides a lot of versatility to the player.

 

 

Doc

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

Looks like you already have what you want.

 

I may have gone along the lines of having a slot in the multipower which was variable effect - so the real cost of the slot would be real cost of power/2.5.

 

That follows the logic of the multipower slots - a 60 point ultra slot costs 6 points, a 60 point multi slot costs 12 points and a 60 point variable slot costs 24 points.

 

yup, it is expensive but it provides a lot of versatility to the player.

 

 

Doc

 

Thats a cool idea too.

Because of how little spells cost themselves and that there is a -1 on the multipower, I was trying to find something close to legal weighing in at somewhere between 10 to 15 points. A cramming + Powerskill does that, as does your idea. I like it.

 

And both Doc and Oddhat - "You must spread some rep ect..."

[CourtFool]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

Seems you have what you want, but thought I would toss a couple more suggestions out there.

 

Lift the "Limitations only apply to Control Cost" rule just for this instance. A new Advantage called Variable Power for +1 or +2 that basically functions much like a Variable Power Pool.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

Seems you have what you want, but thought I would toss a couple more suggestions out there.

 

Interesting ideas.

 

I have a couple of workable solutions, but I don't mind any other suggestions, so if you have one, shoot it on over. Something might be perfect that I hadn't thought of yet.

[OddHat]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

Interesting ideas.

 

I have a couple of workable solutions, but I don't mind any other suggestions, so if you have one, shoot it on over. Something might be perfect that I hadn't thought of yet.

 

One more possibility, depending on the breadth of the multipower: A naked variable advantage purchased outside of the MP, say +1 for up to 60 active points, one charge per day, extra time, trigger, other limits and advantages to taste. Should be fairly cheap, and would allow some pretty impressive once per day uses of otherwise average spells (at the cost of shooting active point limits in the foot). Add in power skill for completely novel stunts when needed and you don't need much else, and you haven't gone outside of the rules as written.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

One more possibility' date=' depending on the breadth of the multipower: A naked variable advantage purchased outside of the MP, say +1 for up to 60 active points, one charge per day, extra time, trigger, other limits and advantages to taste. Should be fairly cheap, and would allow some pretty impressive once per day uses of otherwise average spells (at the cost of shooting active point limits in the foot). Add in power skill for completely novel stunts when needed and you don't need much else, and you haven't gone outside of the rules as written.[/quote']

 

 

I like that. Although that would likely end up as something else.

 

I use Naked Advantages with limitations for "metamagic" where really good wizards can change aspects of a spell on the fly. (Adding area effect to a single target spell, or making it cost less end ect).

[Mentor]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

You can always go with the last resort of the cheesy lack of imagination scoundrel. Transform.

 

Pay for 1 slot in your 60 pt multipower and Transform stick into Wand of X spell or paper into Scroll of Y spell or vial into Potion of Z spell. And limit the slot to 1 charge per day or however many times you want to allow it.

 

I agree as to the cop out of resorting to Transform for the imaginative stuff. Besides players and GMs rarely agree on the Major/Minor aspect so arguments often ensue.

[sbarron]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

I would just price this special ability at what I think its worth and move along. I think we all spend too much time trying to shoe-horn our ideas into the base system rather than tweaking the system to fit our ideas.

 

Does it make this ability any less legal to just call it a 10-15 point talent? I don't think so. So that's what I'd do.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

 

Does it make this ability any less legal to just call it a 10-15 point talent? I don't think so. So that's what I'd do.

 

That is likely to be whatI am doing, but I like to find other ways to get what I want, that are close to legal, for comparisons.

[Rapier]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

PERK it all the way. The cost is the important factor, not how its built. Since it will change all the time, just dump it into some custom PERK and call it a day.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

PERK it all the way. The cost is the important factor' date=' not how its built. Since it will change all the time, just dump it into some custom PERK and call it a day.[/quote']

 

Going "talent" instead of perk, but yep.

 

 

Thanks for all the discussion, it's helped me focus and get what I wanted done.

 

What I am going to go with

 

Cramming 3 levels (15) +1 advantage (can stack. i.e. get three points on one thing)* Magic spells only -2, RSR to change -1/2 (at -1/5 active points).

Total Cost 8.

Talent will be called something like "Instant Spell Study" or something.

 

* which would put the cost for cramming that could do a 3 pt skill at 30. Which is in line with the Universal skills, but you would have to spend more time at it, but it's not a background skill.

 

All in all I feel that this costs where I want it, and it works in relation to other elements of the game system (which is a big deal for me).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

Another possibility is to use an often-used house rule, discussed by many on these boards: A slightly modified VPP rule - the Pool Cost is the Real Points in the pool, as normal, and the base Control Cost is half the maximum Active Points of any one power in the pool. Thus, you could have a pool like this:

 

30 - Pool Cost (30 Real Points)

30 - Base Control Cost (up to 60 Active Points in the power(s) in the pool)

Then the Control Cost is limited as you like. If "Can only change once a day" is -1/2 and "One power at a time only" is -1/2, then the final CC is only 15 points.

 

Then you need whatever Limitations you want (-1 worth) on the power itself. And if any of those are common lims that will always be applied to the spell, regardless of what it is, then you can put the same lim on the Control Cost as well. A few that come to mind are Lockout (can't use the MP at the same time, or at least you can't use Attack spells from the MP at the same time), and the Spell limitation. If you use Lockout, then that's a total of -1.5 on the Control Cost and you only need an additional -1/2 of lims on the Spells themselves, and the whole thing only costs you 30 + (30/2.5) = 42 points.

 

And if you want to put more lims on each of the spells, you can save even more points.

[Checkmate]

Re: Pool like effect without a pool

 

Since legality isn't an issue, make the VPP a slot in the multipower.