Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

[GAZZA]

(and to a lesser extent the UNTIL db as well).

 

Before I get stuck in here, let me say that the general quality of these books (so far I've read UNTIL 1, Ultimate Speedster, Ultimate Brick, Ultimate Metamorph, and Ultimate Mentalist) is excellent. I just want to call a few nagging things to attention - some of which are errors, some of which are merely questionable - in the hopes of either being told why in fact I'm wrong (and the error or questionable judgement is actually fine), or else perhaps to compile some sort of errata.

 

Use of Aid (Questionable):

OK, I'm a power gamer - I'll admit that up front to forestall the obvious objections. But there are many cases of example powers that use Aid in a way that is basically useless. For example: Ultimate Brick pp 50: "Adrenaline Surge". For 16 points you get 4d6 of Aid with limitations (including "Self Only"). Or, for the same 16 points, you could buy +24 STR "No Figured Characteristics", and have that STR all the time. Ultimate Metamorph has a similar "Muscle Augmentation" power on pp 98 with the same issue.

 

OK, one can argue that I'm just being munchkinny here, but the fact of the matter is that if I can buy something that works all the time for the same cost as something that only works some of the time, something is wrong. I'm not here to get on the case of Aid's cost - valid as that position may be - but rather to suggest that the simple rule of thumb should be that in the case where the Aid solution is too expensive, buy it with a limited form of the Characteristic or Power instead. +20 STR, No Figured Chars (-1/2), 4 charges last 1 minute (-1/4), Costs END (-1/2), Extra STR fades at 5 points/Turn (-1/2) costs 5 real points, and it seems equally in keeping with the intent of the power.

 

Redirected Attacks (Questionable/Error)

Here I'm referring to such constructs as Temporal Ambush from the Ultimate Speedster pp 155. Basically the idea is that you freeze time, alter the aim of someone and make them hit someone else instead. So far so good.

 

The problem is that the mechanical construct for this is ridiculously overcomplicated. You start with a small (6d6) Energy Blast with a +1/2 Variable Advantage (to take account of an advantage that the other guy might have), Variable Special Effects (error - since the attack could have any special effect, this power really needs the +1/2 version of VSE not the Limited Group +1/4 version), and Indirect (to reflect that it's coming from someone else). That's already an expensive power (82 active points) for a 6d6 Energy Blast that might get Armour Piercing, Autofire, or something else that's useful (in fact it's really supposed to be 90 active points, if you accept my VSE correction).

 

Then they go to the extent of noting, "Hmm, wait a minute, if he really fired that attack off, then he'd have lost some END or a charge". So then there's a 45 active point linked Drain designed to knock off a single charge or the END for a single shot.

 

OK, first up: this construct doesn't technically work. It's a Multiple Power Attack that is hitting two different targets (the Drain and the EB). Linked doesn't allow you to ignore the "same target" rule.

 

Secondly, it's monstrously useless. For a total of 127 active points (or higher if you accept my correction), even if it works you've done little or no damage to most EB targets and maybe cost the Drain target on the order of 8 END which will recover at 5 character points/Turn. To make the Drain really knock that END off... well, my best guess is to pump up the recovery period to at least 5 points/minute or worse, and apply some sort of "fades with normal Recovery" limitation.

 

Why not just pump that 127 active points into a 21d6 Energy Blast and maybe use the Rapid Fire option or just spread it a bit to fry both of the targets? There has got to be a better way of doing this.

 

 

Possession (Questionable/Error):

Whether you do it with the optional +2 advantage for Mind Control (Ultimate Mentalist pp44) or with the combination of Mind Control, Desolidification, and Clinging (Bodyjacking - Ultimate Mentalist pp141) you end up with something that doesn't work, and costs too much.

 

Doesn't Work: The Bodyjacking power links the Mind Control to the Desolidification and the Desolidification to the Mind Control, which is not allowed. There must be some "handwaving" going on for the effect, since it says that the possessor acts on the lower of his and the victim's SPD, DEX, EGO, and so forth. The normal rule would be that (probably) all the possessor can do is issue new orders with Mind Control (which fortunately is 0 END and Affects Physical World) on his phases, and that the victim will act according on his own phases using his full DEX, EGO, and so forth - but I concede that the -0 side effects might be intended to cover this.

 

Poorly Constructed/Costs Too Much: This is the main objection. The power is essentially attempting to set up a long term Mind Control - something that would be more easily achieved with a Transform. 6d6 Transform, BOECV (+1), vs EGO instead of BODY (+1/4), No Range (-1/2) for a Major Transform to "someone who obeys my every command while I'm jacked in" costs 135 real points - the same as the Mind Control method. On average this will nail someone with a 10 EGO first shot, and can get someone with up to 20 EGO after a couple of goes. This hypothetical 20 EGO dude against 18d6 Mind Control that needs a +30 will break out of the 18d6 Mind Control on an 11 or less (more than 50% of the time), so you're going to have to nail someone with 20 EGO twice either way. Note that you don't need Affects Physical World here unless you want to jump from one body to another without ever becoming solid.

 

Now, it may seem I've just replaced something that looks virtually identical - but in fact that's not the case. The Transform is, by most definitions, flat out superior. The Transform will last for months; the Mind Control is highly unlikely to do so (every time you change the command they get a breakout roll, and sooner or later they're going to get lucky). The Mind Control has some advantages against targets with Mental Defence, granted, but the Transform works better against high EGO targets that don't have large mental defence (although I'd concede that there's no so many of those).

 

But more to the point, long term Mind Control effects are "supposed" to be done with Transform - even the Ultimate Mentalist itself makes this point.

 

One other side note: the +2 "Possession" advantage for Mind Control that gives these benefits needs to be examined. It ends up costing more for a smaller power, and it is not clear about whether or not it gives the same amount of Telepathy and so forth, nor how you go about applying the Corporeal Remnant or Ranged Bodyjacking options.

 

To be honest, Possession possibly deserves its own power. Of course you can "hack it" with Transform and/or Mind Control, but you could make the same argument for many powers - and possession isn't exactly an uncommon effect in many genres from fantasy, through horror, to superheroes. I'm not going to say that the HSA1 Spirit Rules had the concept nailed, but they might be a starting point.

 

 

Radioactive Zone (Questionable):

From the UNTIL db, pp 172. This version of Change Environment breaks the rule that Change Environment shouldn't be cheaper than comparable attack powers - indeed, it breaks the rule, stomps on it, and then blasts it into its component atoms.

 

OK, that's an exaggeration of course - the fact that the damage is "one time" rather than the continuing effect that (say) an NND Does Body would do is a mitigating factor - but it's certainly much more cost efficient than comparable Change Environment powers. For 60 active points, you can have an 8" radius of radiation that does 550 rads - doing 3d6 BODY that doesn't heal (ever?) to anyone with less than 11 CON, which will be most norms. That's pretty decent - you'd struggle to get an AE attack that killed that efficiently for 60 active points, especially one that ignored conventional defences. Sure, a few points of Life Support and you're golden, but still - I think this is probably too good.

[mattingly]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

Use of Aid (Questionable): For the same 16 points, you could buy +24 STR "No Figured Characteristics", and have that STR all the time.

 

But Aid can go into an EC, or can go into an MP and keep the effects after switching slots. So its cost can be fiddled with in ways.

 

Redirected Attacks (Questionable/Error): There has got to be a better way of doing this.

 

I can see that. Personally, I'd go with either Triggered Missile Reflection at Any Target, or a Telepathic Mind Control with Set Effect ("attack this other person") Based on CON.

 

Radioactive Zone (Questionable): Change Environment shouldn't be cheaper than comparable attack powers

 

Do you also object to using Change Environment to adjust Temperature Levels? That's cheaper than Suppress REC.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

And don't forget that some GMs cap STR without a limitation of some kind (NFC not counting). In my Teen Champions Game, the Brick is going to have a low cap on STR at the start.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

Change Environment has two purposes. It can make similated effects that shouldn't be cheaper in cost than the power it emulates. It is also a way to throw an environmental condition into an area. Radiation is an enviornmental condition just as mattingly pointed out that change the temperature levels. It is also used for creating Zero Gravity environments. Try writing that up for less than CE.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

Interesting points and two or three of them were actually noted by our group as well. For discussion's sake, here is how we fixed them.

 

Adrenaline Sure: Change Aid to Succor and you not only halve the cost, you remove the upper limit. Replace Charges with 0 END. Add Continuous for Rapid Surge.

 

Temporal Ambush/ Redirected Attack: Never noticed this one but I clearly think changing the slot to an Uncontrolled Ranged Missile Deflection and Reflection would be a much better build.

 

Possession: We don't allow custom Advanatages like the +2 Possession Adder presented in the Ultimate Mentalist so we originally used the Ultimate Metamorph version for this power. Needless to say it doesnt work very well in most campaigns with an AP cap. Here is my personal solution for a character I played for awhile. Please note this type of character only works if the GM is willing to stat out a few villains for you each night.

 

Possession I

4d6 Mind Control, Cumulative x2 (+1), Indirect (+1/2), Transdimensional [the Material World] (+1/2), Mandatory Effect: EGO +20 (-1/2), Eye Contact Required (-1/2) "The Eyes are the Windows to the Soul."

 

Possession II

Extra-Dimensional Movement (20), Travel to a Single Location in a Related Group of Dimensions: [the Target’s Soul] (5), Linked to Mind Control (-1/4) "Spiritual Possession"

 

Possession III

6d6 Telepathy, Indirect (+1/2), Transdimensional [the Material World] (+1/2), No Range (-1/2), Linked to Mind Control (-1/2) "The Victim's Thoughts and Memories"

 

Possession IV

4d6 EGO Suppress, Based on ECV (+1), Indirect (+1/2), Transdimensional [the Material World] (+1/2), No Range (-1/2), Linked to Mind Control (-1/2) "Demonic Possession"

 

*Requires Eye Contact was our out of character way for the GM to tell me a villain was off limits for possession for storyline reasons. If the villains eyes were covered, we didn't try to remove his glasses or anything. This saved us both alot of headaches.

** Between Cumulative on the Mind Control and the EGO suppress, almost any character can be possessed given enough time, and the average character can be possessed in just a few attempts.

*** The above build assumes a 60 AP max campaign. Total cost is 110 points. Adjust the dice for higher or lower AP caps.

**** My personal version of this build also includes a Mental Defense Find Weakness, but that's because I am a powergamer.

 

Radioactive Zone: No comment here other than that we usually don't allow custom advanatges or effects printed outside the core rulebook.

[GAZZA]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

But Aid can go into an EC' date=' or can go into an MP and keep the effects after switching slots. So its cost can be fiddled with in ways.[/quote']

Yeah, I hear ya, I really do. But at least list the "20 STR" version as a variant for the poor schmucks that don't have a power framework to chuck it in - which is going to be many bricks, and some metamorphs. Lots of powers have variants (heck, I'm pretty sure that the "+ Char" variant is actually in one of the above mentioned books for some other power).

 

I can see that. Personally, I'd go with either Triggered Missile Reflection at Any Target, or a Telepathic Mind Control with Set Effect ("attack this other person") Based on CON.

Yeah, the Mind Control occurred to me as well. Missile Reflection is somewhat tricky (you can't reflect at range); Deflection + a triggered power might work.

 

Do you also object to using Change Environment to adjust Temperature Levels? That's cheaper than Suppress REC.

It's an interesting point. If I'm figuring the numbers correctly, you can whack off 13 REC with 60 active points of Change Environment Temperature (assuming 8" radius), which is certainly comparable. But it won't kill you the way the radiation might. Part of the issue is with the "and doesn't heal" bit - doesn't heal ever? Not even with Healing?

 

But you certainly raise a good point.

 

To DocSamson: interesting Possession idea. The whole "substitute XDM for Desolid" is especially inspired - I like it. I'm less enamoured of Succor; I'm one of those grognards who thinks that if you layer two Suppresses or Succors on someone they should only be affected by the more powerful of the two. But yes, Succor is certainly better priced for this effect.

 

And don't forget that some GMs cap STR without a limitation of some kind (NFC not counting). In my Teen Champions Game' date=' the Brick is going to have a low cap on STR at the start.[/quote']

Well, true, but my suggestion for the +20 STR variant of Adrenaline Rush would probably qualify as "a limitation of some kind", would it not? It would functionally work very similarly to the way the Aid would - it just costs a lot less (and IMHO the lowered cost is a better reflection of utility).

 

I also take on board your points about Zero Gravity; my point was never to suggest that the new Change Environment rules weren't a GoodThing, but rather that I think the Radiation effects here are somewhat abusing the privilege. Once you have a power that is going to basically inflict BODY and CON "damage" on someone, then comparisons to how much it would cost to do this with attack powers are inevitable - whereas with Zero Gravity it's certainly much less clear how you'd go about modelling that reasonably without CE.

 

I dunno, it just seems like Dr Radioactive is going to be able to murder people a lot more efficiently than a 60 active point power "should" be able to, IMHO.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

I think the problems you are finding within the Ultimate Series falls into one of two categories.

 

1) The Power doesn't fit all character builds

If you are building a Brick with no STR Cap and no Power Frameworks, the Adrenaline Surge is pointless when you can do a +24 STR, No Figured Characteristics.

 

On a somewhat side note, I don't believe No Figured Characteristics should count as a limitation for cap purposes. If it did, you could build a +20 STR, No Figured Characteristics on a character with NCM. You may not get your boost to PD and BODY but it saves you from the double penality. See my point?

 

2) The Power Requires GM Approval

A Change Environment Radiation Field or Zero-Gravity Field should not be permitted without a GM's approval. It is too open to abuse to just be allowed through without major issue.

 

Power abuse, by the way, is building an Indirect, EB with Double Knockback and a Linked Change Environment (Zero-Gravity Field) built as an Instant Duration. 6d6 Blast causes 6d6 and sends them skyward up to as much as 47" into the air (though a more realistic figure of 23") and THEN gravity turns back on to give them falling damage.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

Very interesting points, GAZZA.

 

Personally I've long thought "Self Only" for Aid should be -1 rather than -1/2, partly because of the cost comparison with Characteristics that you note. You're probably right that that belongs in a different discussion, though.

 

You know, I never noticed that according to the rulebook, Linked is only supposed to work in one direction. I'm sure I've seen two Powers that both take Linked (although if a smaller AP Power is Linked to a larger one, the smaller one only gets -1/4) for more than one published example. That would represent two Powers that must always be used together; neither one can be used without the other, which is a reasonable construct IMO. I've seen the term "cross-Linked" used on the boards for that construct, and I'd have sworn Steve Long okayed it. But darned if I can find it in the rulebook, the FAQ or Steve's Rules Questions forum.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

Let's start by saying I haven't reviewed the constructs in detail.

 

(and to a lesser extent the UNTIL db as well).Use of Aid (Questionable):

OK, I'm a power gamer - I'll admit that up front to forestall the obvious objections. But there are many cases of example powers that use Aid in a way that is basically useless. For example: Ultimate Brick pp 50: "Adrenaline Surge". For 16 points you get 4d6 of Aid with limitations (including "Self Only"). Or, for the same 16 points, you could buy +24 STR "No Figured Characteristics", and have that STR all the time. Ultimate Metamorph has a similar "Muscle Augmentation" power on pp 98 with the same issue.

 

OK, one can argue that I'm just being munchkinny here, but the fact of the matter is that if I can buy something that works all the time for the same cost as something that only works some of the time, something is wrong. I'm not here to get on the case of Aid's cost - valid as that position may be - but rather to suggest that the simple rule of thumb should be that in the case where the Aid solution is too expensive, buy it with a limited form of the Characteristic or Power instead. +20 STR, No Figured Chars (-1/2), 4 charges last 1 minute (-1/4), Costs END (-1/2), Extra STR fades at 5 points/Turn (-1/2) costs 5 real points, and it seems equally in keeping with the intent of the power.

 

In my opinion, Aid is a very poor ability when Self Only is applied, for the basic reasons you state above. Strip away all the other bonuses and limitations and, for 20 points, you can have 3d6 Aid, Self Only. That adds, on average, 10.5 character points that fade away, and it costs an attack action. This is ridiculously overpriced. For two attack actions, he can hit +18 CP that fade. For the same 20 points, he could have had +20 stat that adds to Figured and doesn't require attack actions or fade away.

 

If we assume NCM, and that the character is at the top end of NCM, it becomes a bit more balanced, but the ability to add 18 with fade rate and using actions still is questionable compared to having +10 at all timnes, with figured char's. And none of the constructs above look like they're intended for games with NCM.

 

To the comments related to caps, in my experience, most GM's that cap DC's aren't going to let players have a power that exceeds those DC's "only for occasional use".

 

Overall: The problem, in my opinion, is that Aid, Self Only is overpriced.

 

Redirected Attacks (Questionable/Error)

Here I'm referring to such constructs as Temporal Ambush from the Ultimate Speedster pp 155. Basically the idea is that you freeze time, alter the aim of someone and make them hit someone else instead. So far so good.

 

The problem is that the mechanical construct for this is ridiculously overcomplicated. You start with a small (6d6) Energy Blast with a +1/2 Variable Advantage (to take account of an advantage that the other guy might have), Variable Special Effects (error - since the attack could have any special effect, this power really needs the +1/2 version of VSE not the Limited Group +1/4 version), and Indirect (to reflect that it's coming from someone else). That's already an expensive power (82 active points) for a 6d6 Energy Blast that might get Armour Piercing, Autofire, or something else that's useful (in fact it's really supposed to be 90 active points, if you accept my VSE correction).

 

Then they go to the extent of noting, "Hmm, wait a minute, if he really fired that attack off, then he'd have lost some END or a charge". So then there's a 45 active point linked Drain designed to knock off a single charge or the END for a single shot.

 

OK, first up: this construct doesn't technically work. It's a Multiple Power Attack that is hitting two different targets (the Drain and the EB). Linked doesn't allow you to ignore the "same target" rule.

 

Secondly, it's monstrously useless. For a total of 127 active points (or higher if you accept my correction), even if it works you've done little or no damage to most EB targets and maybe cost the Drain target on the order of 8 END which will recover at 5 character points/Turn. To make the Drain really knock that END off... well, my best guess is to pump up the recovery period to at least 5 points/minute or worse, and apply some sort of "fades with normal Recovery" limitation.

 

Why not just pump that 127 active points into a 21d6 Energy Blast and maybe use the Rapid Fire option or just spread it a bit to fry both of the targets? There has got to be a better way of doing this.

 

First off, I'd allow the +1/4 VSE as a limited selection (only SFX on the current field of battle). I'd reduce the Variable Advantage cost to a similar "limited choice" pool, likely cut it in half to simulate No Conscious Control of which advantages can be selected.

 

However, I'd much prefer the Reflection approach. This requires an option mentioned several times on the Boards previously that ought to be added to the rules - a Reflection adder for HTH attacks, which would combine with the Block (or Martial Block) maneuver.

 

Overall: Solution is to add a "redirect HTH attacks" adder. This "redirect" power should have made its way to the system long, long ago.

 

Possession (Questionable/Error):

Whether you do it with the optional +2 advantage for Mind Control (Ultimate Mentalist pp44) or with the combination of Mind Control, Desolidification, and Clinging (Bodyjacking - Ultimate Mentalist pp141) you end up with something that doesn't work, and costs too much.

 

Doesn't Work: The Bodyjacking power links the Mind Control to the Desolidification and the Desolidification to the Mind Control, which is not allowed. There must be some "handwaving" going on for the effect, since it says that the possessor acts on the lower of his and the victim's SPD, DEX, EGO, and so forth. The normal rule would be that (probably) all the possessor can do is issue new orders with Mind Control (which fortunately is 0 END and Affects Physical World) on his phases, and that the victim will act according on his own phases using his full DEX, EGO, and so forth - but I concede that the -0 side effects might be intended to cover this.

 

Poorly Constructed/Costs Too Much: This is the main objection. The power is essentially attempting to set up a long term Mind Control - something that would be more easily achieved with a Transform. 6d6 Transform, BOECV (+1), vs EGO instead of BODY (+1/4), No Range (-1/2) for a Major Transform to "someone who obeys my every command while I'm jacked in" costs 135 real points - the same as the Mind Control method. On average this will nail someone with a 10 EGO first shot, and can get someone with up to 20 EGO after a couple of goes. This hypothetical 20 EGO dude against 18d6 Mind Control that needs a +30 will break out of the 18d6 Mind Control on an 11 or less (more than 50% of the time), so you're going to have to nail someone with 20 EGO twice either way. Note that you don't need Affects Physical World here unless you want to jump from one body to another without ever becoming solid.

 

Now, it may seem I've just replaced something that looks virtually identical - but in fact that's not the case. The Transform is, by most definitions, flat out superior. The Transform will last for months; the Mind Control is highly unlikely to do so (every time you change the command they get a breakout roll, and sooner or later they're going to get lucky). The Mind Control has some advantages against targets with Mental Defence, granted, but the Transform works better against high EGO targets that don't have large mental defence (although I'd concede that there's no so many of those).

 

But more to the point, long term Mind Control effects are "supposed" to be done with Transform - even the Ultimate Mentalist itself makes this point.

 

One other side note: the +2 "Possession" advantage for Mind Control that gives these benefits needs to be examined. It ends up costing more for a smaller power, and it is not clear about whether or not it gives the same amount of Telepathy and so forth, nor how you go about applying the Corporeal Remnant or Ranged Bodyjacking options.

 

To be honest, Possession possibly deserves its own power. Of course you can "hack it" with Transform and/or Mind Control, but you could make the same argument for many powers - and possession isn't exactly an uncommon effect in many genres from fantasy, through horror, to superheroes. I'm not going to say that the HSA1 Spirit Rules had the concept nailed, but they might be a starting point.

 

To me, the problem with Possession is that it works better in fiction than in a game. It's typically fully reliable in fiction, except against targets the writer prefers it not impact. It's typically the only "attack power" of the user, so when it doesn't work, the player is basically helpless and bored. When it does work, it instantly removes a target from the fight, converting him to an ally.

 

That said, if I wanted to construct it, I'd be inclined to combine a Multiform with lots of forms (maybe a VPP that can only Multiform) and EDM, UAA. The EDM moves my target to "stasis". The Multiform changes me to match the target.

 

The target in stasis stays there until I multiform out of the target's form, at which time he returns to this dimension, with whatever damage was accumulated by my Multiform. I retain the Multiform until I give up, or am forced to give up (if the power is limited in some way), possession.

 

To me, this is the effect of Possession - my character essentially becomes the target, and the target is removed from the field of battle. UAA requires a defense, so that's the "writer's fiat" characters who are immune to possession.

 

Overall Possession is an all or nothing ability that's problematic in game. Should it be surprising that Stop Sign constructs would be required to duplicate it?

 

Radioactive Zone (Questionable):

From the UNTIL db, pp 172. This version of Change Environment breaks the rule that Change Environment shouldn't be cheaper than comparable attack powers - indeed, it breaks the rule, stomps on it, and then blasts it into its component atoms.

 

OK, that's an exaggeration of course - the fact that the damage is "one time" rather than the continuing effect that (say) an NND Does Body would do is a mitigating factor - but it's certainly much more cost efficient than comparable Change Environment powers. For 60 active points, you can have an 8" radius of radiation that does 550 rads - doing 3d6 BODY that doesn't heal (ever?) to anyone with less than 11 CON, which will be most norms. That's pretty decent - you'd struggle to get an AE attack that killed that efficiently for 60 active points, especially one that ignored conventional defences. Sure, a few points of Life Support and you're golden, but still - I think this is probably too good.

 

This one depends a lot on the construct and the campaign, but the ability to kill normals isn't one I believe most playes would be chasing. Sure, it takes out normals. Show me a Super who can't take out normals. It will be useless in virtually all combat challenges faced by the character, so it's still very expensive for its combat effects. It changes the environment.

 

OverallI'm OK with this one.

[Mister E]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

Yeah, Aid sucks. I want to use it... but really it's just more dice that need to be rolled; and it to costs too much. An average of 3.5 character points for a cost of 10 character points? Maximum Effect of drek? *sigh*

[ghost-angel]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

Linked says nothing about not using it to Link two powers to each other.

 

It just means you can't use either power without using both Powers. Which is a valid concept sometimes, as in the above case.

 

Otherwise, you could use the Unlinked Power without using the other Linked Power - and that doesn't always fit concept.

[GAZZA]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

Linked says nothing about not using it to Link two powers to each other.

Err...

 

5ER pp299: "When Linking two powers, a character should only take Linked for the power that costs fewer Active Points ..." (followed by a bit later about doing it the other way around if you want).

 

and "If a character wants to Link three or more powers, every power but the power that costs the most Active Points may take Linked ..."

 

Seems reasonably clear to me that you can't take it on both powers.

 

Otherwise, you could use the Unlinked Power without using the other Linked Power - and that doesn't always fit concept.

I don't disagree about the concept, but Linked - as written - won't get you there.

 

OVERALL: OK, I retract the observation about Radiation, agree with what most people are saying about Aid, and there seems a general consensus that Possession and Redirected Attacks are problematic powers.

 

I spotted another one today: Aura Vision in The Ultimate Mentalist pp161. My problem with this? It says that "No one can disguise his aura ... without really special and bizarre powers".

 

As written, Aura Vision is in the Sight group. Which means that anyone who becomes Invisible to the Sight group has no aura, anyone who Shape Shifts the Sight group can alter their aura, and anyone with Images against the Sight group can alter auras on a basically unlimited basis within their area of effect (albeit with a PER roll to see through it). I wouldn't call any of those "really special or bizarre powers", which means that either Aura Vision is supposed to somehow ignore any of all of these or that this text is just incorrect.

 

"True Aura Vision", one of the options on the next page, fits this concept much better (as in that case you'd have to be able to target Aura Vision specifically with Invisibility et al - and I would call that a "really special or bizarre power".

 

Side note: there's a sort of implication here that Auras are more visible in darker conditions, which might be problematic as well (a clever player could argue that he was able to function without penalty in dim light, since he could target the well-lit auras). I don't believe that's the intent (it notes that Darkness and Flash work, for example) but that makes it tricky to "visualise" - you've got a visible phenomena that appears like light, is washed out by bright lights, but it paradoxically also dependent on light to be seen... oh well, I guess "it's magic!"

[Greywind]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

One main thing to consider, which really overrides most of the complaints:

 

Does the build fit the concept and the context of the character in question?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

Err...

 

5ER pp299: "When Linking two powers, a character should only take Linked for the power that costs fewer Active Points ..." (followed by a bit later about doing it the other way around if you want).

 

and "If a character wants to Link three or more powers, every power but the power that costs the most Active Points may take Linked ..."

 

Seems reasonably clear to me that you can't take it on both powers.

 

 

I don't disagree about the concept, but Linked - as written - won't get you there.

 

"should" doesn't mean "can't" or "not allowed" ... it just generally means that linking two powers to each other should get an extra bit of scrutiny because it comes off a bit munchkiny.

 

At least, that's how I read it.

 

 

Besides, write-ups in the books break the rules with some regularity. It reinforce the fact that the Rules are not a strait jacket, they are a tool. If Linking two powers to each other makes sense for concept - go ahead and Link 'em!

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

 

As written, Aura Vision is in the Sight group. Which means that anyone who becomes Invisible to the Sight group has no aura, anyone who Shape Shifts the Sight group can alter their aura, and anyone with Images against the Sight group can alter auras on a basically unlimited basis within their area of effect (albeit with a PER roll to see through it). I wouldn't call any of those "really special or bizarre powers", which means that either Aura Vision is supposed to somehow ignore any of all of these or that this text is just incorrect.

 

Well, the Invisible thing is hard to judge around, but I wouldn't let someone Shape Shift their appearance to a sense they don't have. If you can't see ultraviolet, you can't alter your ultraviolet reflectivity. Using the same logic, if you can't see your aura, you can't alter it either.

 

A really special and bizarre power in this case would be Aura Vision itself, so you can see what you're altering.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

To me, the problem with Possession is that it works better in fiction than in a game. It's typically fully reliable in fiction, except against targets the writer prefers it not impact. It's typically the only "attack power" of the user, so when it doesn't work, the player is basically helpless and bored. When it does work, it instantly removes a target from the fight, converting him to an ally.

 

That said, if I wanted to construct it, I'd be inclined to combine a Multiform with lots of forms (maybe a VPP that can only Multiform) and EDM, UAA. The EDM moves my target to "stasis". The Multiform changes me to match the target.

 

The target in stasis stays there until I multiform out of the target's form, at which time he returns to this dimension, with whatever damage was accumulated by my Multiform. I retain the Multiform until I give up, or am forced to give up (if the power is limited in some way), possession.

 

To me, this is the effect of Possession - my character essentially becomes the target, and the target is removed from the field of battle. UAA requires a defense, so that's the "writer's fiat" characters who are immune to possession.

 

Overall Possession is an all or nothing ability that's problematic in game. Should it be surprising that Stop Sign constructs would be required to duplicate it?

 

Now this is truly brilliant and blows my construct out of the water. I realize you threw this out as just a suggestion, but it already has my mind whirling. One thing it doesn't allow is drama involving partial control or the victim breaking free but this can still be handled with side effects, disadvantages, or simple roleplaying. The biggest hurdle I see from a player's standpoint is that if the "possessed character" is knocked out or killed, then so is the player character.

[GAZZA]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

It's certainly elegant.

 

I dunno. I was very tempted to list "VPP of Multiforms" as questionable (Ultimate Metamorph makes this the semi-official way of doing power mimicry now). Multiform is borderline abusive at the best of times, and it strikes me that a VPP of Multiforms is basically "turning it up to 11". However, no other way of doing power mimicry has ever really worked properly (you need a massive VPP, and can't mimic frameworks), so I figured that I'd let it slide. Perhaps Possession falls under the same category, but am I alone here in being just a tad concerned about a construct that combines EDM UAA and a VPP of Multiforms?

 

(shrug) I do take Hugh's points on board though - it is a problematic thing to have in game, and Stop Sign stuff should be expected.

[GAZZA]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

Well' date=' the Invisible thing is hard to judge around, but I wouldn't let someone Shape Shift their appearance to a sense they don't have. If you can't see ultraviolet, you can't alter your ultraviolet reflectivity. Using the same logic, if you can't see your aura, you can't alter it either.[/quote']

I don't know. I certainly get where you're coming from - if you can't sense it, how could you change your shape to avoid it? - but I'm wary of that sort of generalisation. It forbids something like Shape Shift vs Radio sense to change your radar profile unless you have some sort of radio senses; you can't shape shift into a cold blooded creature (ie change your IR signature) unless you have IR vision... it just doesn't seem to generalise quite that easily to me.

 

I'm also wary of it because it strikes me that this is asking for trouble; just buy a custom 5 point sense in the sight group and see through most Shapeshifts (unless the shifter happens to have the same sense). Shapeshift is a moderately expensive power, and if you pay for the sense group I am inclined to say that you can change everything of that sense. In the specific case of Aura Vision I don't really see that your Aura is part of your electromagnetic visible light profile anyway - that was part of my point, that it isn't really "light based" and more that it just appears that way to the viewer (I'd say that it's more of a mental sense, perhaps with the restriction that if your sight is blocked you can't use it).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

It's certainly elegant.

 

I dunno. I was very tempted to list "VPP of Multiforms" as questionable (Ultimate Metamorph makes this the semi-official way of doing power mimicry now). Multiform is borderline abusive at the best of times, and it strikes me that a VPP of Multiforms is basically "turning it up to 11". However, no other way of doing power mimicry has ever really worked properly (you need a massive VPP, and can't mimic frameworks), so I figured that I'd let it slide. Perhaps Possession falls under the same category, but am I alone here in being just a tad concerned about a construct that combines EDM UAA and a VPP of Multiforms?

 

It's my suggested build, and I'd be concerned about it. The VPP approach for power mimicry has been around since at least USPD, though. Both powers are extremely potent, and could easily unbalance a game, in my view. They also suffer from the binary issue. if they work, they're immensely powerful, and if they don't the character is generally next to useless. Any ability that has these results is problematic, in my view.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

It's certainly elegant.

 

I dunno. I was very tempted to list "VPP of Multiforms" as questionable (Ultimate Metamorph makes this the semi-official way of doing power mimicry now). Multiform is borderline abusive at the best of times, and it strikes me that a VPP of Multiforms is basically "turning it up to 11". However, no other way of doing power mimicry has ever really worked properly (you need a massive VPP, and can't mimic frameworks), so I figured that I'd let it slide. Perhaps Possession falls under the same category, but am I alone here in being just a tad concerned about a construct that combines EDM UAA and a VPP of Multiforms?

 

(shrug) I do take Hugh's points on board though - it is a problematic thing to have in game, and Stop Sign stuff should be expected.

It's my suggested build' date=' and I'd be concerned about it. The VPP approach for power mimicry has been around since at least USPD, though. Both powers are extremely potent, and could easily unbalance a game, in my view. They also suffer from the binary issue. if they work, they're immensely powerful, and if they don't the character is generally next to useless. Any ability that has these results is problematic, in my view.[/quote']

 

I have played both Mimics (using the VPP Multiform) and Possessors. Without the GM being on board, they are impossible and should not be attempted. If the GM is willing to put the extra work in, they can be tons of fun. The player just needs to understand that copying or controlling some characters will ruin the game and the GM needs to be willing to write up a few villains each night for the player to use. As above, we had a simple system for Possession based on requires eye contact. If the GM stated when describing a villain that he had gone to some lengths to protect his eyes, that meant he was off limits. For Mimicing, I was limited to a 70 pt. pool, which meant I could only copy upto 350 pt. characters. Anyone built higher I simply couldn't copy. They have both been very rewarding types of characters to play for me.

[schir1964]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

Err...

 

5ER pp299: "When Linking two powers, a character should only take Linked for the power that costs fewer Active Points ..." (followed by a bit later about doing it the other way around if you want).

 

and "If a character wants to Link three or more powers, every power but the power that costs the most Active Points may take Linked ..."

 

Seems reasonably clear to me that you can't take it on both powers.

Question: Is there a Limitation value for a Linked power that must be used whenever the greater power is used?

 

Answer: Not specifically, no. The value of that Limitation would depend on just how Limiting it is. If the Linked power cost a whole bunch of END, or otherwise inconvenienced the user, then maybe it would be worth 1/4 more Limitation. If there’s no particular drawback, or a rare drawback, it’s probably just +0 more Limitation.

 

Question: Can a character Link two powers to each other, so that neither power can be used without the other?

 

Answer: As an optional rule, yes. The lesser power would take the standard -1/2 Limitation; the greater power a -1/4 Limitation. GM’s approval is required.

 

()

[GAZZA]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

Well, if the FAQs are going to start contradicting the text now... (sigh)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Some issues with the Ultimate Series...

 

Well' date=' if the FAQs are going to start contradicting the text now... (sigh)[/quote']

 

No. They don't.

 

See "Optional Rule"

 

The system is full of Optional Rules that contradict each other, the main rules, other Optional Rules ....

 

Because it's about OPTIONS.

 

The ability to do what you want, how you want it.

 

Hero, of all systems, is most likely to break "RAW" because, well, it's designed to (see: 5ER Chapter 7)