Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

[lgguy]

I am aiming this question at Steve (assuming that he can comment--in no way will I construe an answer as "official" ) but I am curious as the thoughts of the larger community also.

 

Assuming the Hero System is licensed to a "good" computer game developer, the project is greenlit and DOJ has the power to dictate the type/genre of game that would be made (i.e. perfect and ideal conditions--no limitations), what would you Hero computer game (or games) would you like to see? A Champions Action/RPG (or plain RPG)? A Fantasy Hero RPG set in one of the eras of the Hero Timeline? Star Hero? Pulp Hero? Dark Champions?

 

Name your dream digital translation(s) of the Hero System.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

Yes.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

I'll just second the "yes."

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

A true Hero System computer game would have to cover every contingency.

 

So, yes.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

I'd certainly be interested in a Champions, Pulp Hero, or Fantasy CRPG based on the Hero System and probably other genres as well.

[lgguy]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

Yes.

 

Aww...c'mon guys. You can do better than that! Let's narrow it down to what would you do for the first game released?

[lgguy]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

A true Hero System computer game would have to cover every contingency.

 

This could be expanded to "A true RPG computer game would have to cover every contingency." And in fact is why some argue that CRPGs are not really RPGs. Personally, I think they both offer related, yet distinct forms of entertainment. If by contingency, you mean "any character, any genre," I think throwing everything into one game would make for an unwiedly and baroque beast at best and a "jack of all trades, master of none" at worst. I imagine something along the lines of Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, TES: Oblivion, Marvel Ultimate Alliance and Call of Cthulu all rolled into one. IMHO, much better to restrict one game to one genre (unless you are doing time travel or dimension-hopping--why hasn't anyone done a good time travel CRPG?).

[Arc Esu]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

Originally posted by lgguy

...why hasn't anyone done a good time travel CRPG?

 

Chrono Trigger.

 

It's not as freeform as some of the others that you mention, but it was a great time travel console RPG.

 

I would NOT recommend the sequel (called Chrono Cross), though.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

It's expensive to make a single genre/setting CRPG. It's prohibitively expensive to make a time travel/dimension hopping CRPG.

 

That's why it hasn't been done yet.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

In truth, any CRPG based on HERO would not be able to fully implement the rules set. It is far too open-ended, and there is much that must be interpreted by the GM/players. To create such a game, a limited subset of the rules would have to be used. The best way to do this would be to choose a genre and a setting and focus on the core gameplay elements of those.

 

Given HERO's history, it would be natural to start with Champions, in a limited version of the CU. Of course, that has been tried. It succumbed to the "CGW Cover Curse" and was never released.

 

Of course, HERO is not the only company to have problems getting its games translated into the electronic realm. Fallout was originally supposed to be officially based on the GURPS rules, and it still has many elements of that, but the developers were eventually forced to drop that as a design goal (note well, it was not a contract or legal issue, but a design issue).

 

The problem I see with doing Champions is the special effects. Either you have to severely limit what is available, or you spend a lot of time and resources developing everything you can think of, and still someone will want something you forgot. And that is without even considering secondary effects of power SPFX.

 

It may be easier to start with something like an espionage theme in Dark Champions or swords & sorcery in Fantasy HERO, and then build on that to do a supers game later.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

It would be no harder to do a Champions game than it was to do Freedom Force, at least as far as the special effects thing goes. Freedom Force may not have had a complete array of SFX, but it had all the major ones...enough that it would be a while before you noticed anything missing.

[lgguy]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

Chrono Trigger.

 

I forgot about Chrono Trigger. It was an awesome game. I guess I was thinking of a time travel game like the Timepiece/Stopwatch setting in GURPS Time Travel (or dimension traveling like GURPS Infinite Worlds). I can't think of any "western-style" RPG example. Chrono Trigger aside, I can't think of any other CRPG example. Any one else have any examples? (Some games like Sonic CD had time travel elements but I don't count them for this discussion.)

[lgguy]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

Fallout was originally supposed to be officially based on the GURPS rules' date=' and it still has many elements of that, but the developers were eventually forced to drop that as a design goal (note well, it was not a contract or legal issue, but a design issue).[/quote']

 

Actually, the developers were *not* forced to drop GURPS designwise. The contract was mutually terminated because SJG didn't like the content of the game. I took the below quote from this link: http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=35764 (The quoted document contains references for those interested.)

 

In early 1997, in the midst of Fallout’s development, Steve Jackson Games and Interplay terminated their deal. Apparently, Steve Jackson Games was satisfied with everything but for the Vault Boy pictures in the character screen, and the execution scene in the introduction. As the split between Fallout and GURPS became imminent, Steve Jackson remarked “The GURPS implementation they've created is *worth* saving.”

 

Speaking as a programmer myself, I think that a computer implementation of the Hero rules is totally doable. There is no technical reason preventing someone from doing it. The only thing missing would of course be a human GM.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

Actually, the developers were *not* forced to drop GURPS designwise. The contract was mutually terminated because SJG didn't like the content of the game. I took the below quote from this link: http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=35764 (The quoted document contains references for those interested.)

{snip}

Speaking as a programmer myself, I think that a computer implementation of the Hero rules is totally doable. There is no technical reason preventing someone from doing it. The only thing missing would of course be a human GM.

Interesting, I could be wrong about why it was dropped. I looked back at the archives in SJGames Daily Illuminator and found these:

February 12, 1997 (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/1997/ill-feb97.html)

Rumor Control about Interplay

Executive Summary: We wish we knew.

 

I had problems with a couple of features of the otherwise very impressive alpha version of GURPS Fallout. As I corresponded with Interplay staff about this, I got handed up the ladder but their responses remained puzzling -- and that is the most detail I'm going to give for now.

 

Just before leaving for Europe last week, I got a call from a reporter asking me to comment on the Interplay decision to drop GURPS. I told him this was the first I'd heard of it. Calling Interplay, and talking with the last man I'd corresponded with, I got first "We haven't decided that, where'd you hear it?," then "Well, we have been talking about it and somebody must have gotten the idea it was decided," and finally "Yes, we have decided to drop it, so sorry."

 

The statement on the Interplay web site, to the effect that this was a mutual decision of SJ Games and Interplay, is not true. Scott Haring tells me that no written correspondence from Interplay has YET been received at our office. We are not clear what their proposal to finish and release the game without the license entails, for us or for the game, and have absolutely not agreed to it.

 

I can't imagine how Interplay could take three years working on a GURPS. computer game, and then be able to create and install a completely dissimilar game engine in a few months. Nor have I read (or heard) any explanation of how they might plan to do that. So "no comment" on that for now, too.

 

I've been invited to meet with Brian Fargo, who I understand owns Interplay, when I'm in LA in a few days. I'll be very interested to see what he has to say. I hope we will be able to announce that this was a tempest in a teacup.

 

-- Steve Jackson

 

February 19, 1997

Steve's Back

...

Yes, I visited Interplay while I was on the West Coast. Marathon six-hour negotiating session with the programmer who is now in charge of the FALLOUT project. Clearly all the original problems could be resolved; I made a lot of concessions because I want to save the project. The GURPS implementation they've created is *worth* saving. But their decision won't be made by the programmers. All I can say is "wait and see."

...

-- Steve Jackson

and

March 14, 1997 (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/1997/ill-mar97.html)

Interplay Update

I just got a phone call from my contact at Interplay, telling me that they were indeed dropping the GURPS system from the project which has been going forward as GURPS Fallout since 1994. Sigh.

 

The stated reason was that they were "too far along" with the process of deGURPSizing the game. I asked if I could get any of this in writing. He laughed. But he said he'd talk with others there and "see" if he could send me a letter.

 

He also stated that Interplay was still interested in starting a new game using the GURPS system, and I replied that I would look at a proposal. But the saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" comes to mind.

 

I'll be at the Computer Game Developers Conference this April, and it looks like I'll have a lot to talk about with the companies represented there.

-- Steve Jackson

Which, I guess, says from SJs point of view, that at best Interplay overreacted to his comments about a couple of features, and more likely is at least some level of corporate information obfuscation from both parties. It almost sounds like the Interplay execs weren't interested in the project any more and were looking for (or wanted to create) a reason to cancel it outright.

 

More importantly, it doesn't say that GURPS was dropped because of design issues, as I had earlier believed.

[lgguy]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

StGrimblefig - At the risk of derailing the thread, I am intrigued as well. I hadn't read those Daily Illuminators before. Brian Fargo did an interview somewhat recently where he talks about his Interplay days in general and that in particular. He stressed the SJ didn't like the violence. From your post, it sounds like maybe that wasn't the only issue between the two parties. I guess we will never know for sure. Although I would love to read interviews from the all the involved people today about it. (I was a *huge* fan of Black Isle and that whole saga, Fallout included, is interesting.)

 

Getting the thread back on track, I would love to see a more "traditional" RPG (third-person isometric, turn based combat, etc.) done using the Hero system. Too many MMOs and Oblivion games for me (although they can be fun too for awhile). If I were producing one, the question for me is really genre. I really like the published Fantasy Hero settings...but fantasy RPGs are a dime-a-dozen. Could you make a Tuala Morn, Valdorian Age, or even (especially) a Turakian Age RPG standout enough from the pack? Maybe a Dark Champions or Pulp Hero RPG would be more unique. Then, again people have a tendancy to shy away from non-Fantasy CRPGs. That train of thought could go on ad infinitum...and I still don't have an answer to it

[Comic]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

Wait.. what do you mean, genre?

 

I thought the Hero System was Champions?

 

Is this some sort of leg-pulling thread?

[Crypt]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

IMHO, the good question is not what kind of genre would it use but rather what kind of gameplay.

 

i love =

- Rogue likes (Nethack, ADOM, Crawl, etc..)

- Dungeon Master

- Jagged Alliance 2

- Thief: Dark Project 1,2,3

- Fallout

- Elite

- System Shock

because this kind of games are rich, full of possibilities, whatever there genre and whatever there visuals.

 

 

 

Now have a look to Oblivion:

- great graphics

- huge world

- but very poor possibilities. Interactions are very limited (using Havok physic engine is not enough ! ) and spells are infinite variations of a limited list of effects.

 

I would not speak about console CRPG.....most of them offer less possibilities than gamebooks.

 

 

 

My advice is => do not spend too much developpement time on packaging (visuals & sounds.) The video game market is full of beautiful but stupid games.

 

 

I would play an intelligent Hero-based video game , whatever its genre.

 

 

 

PS: do not make a MMORPG, this is a trap, there is no chance to survive. Rather create an honest solo System Shock or Fallout like.

PPS: rather than voting for the genre i'd like to play, i'd prefer to say what genres i wouldn't like to play : Supers, Western and High Power manga like Heroic Fantasy. But if the game is good enough, i could change my mind.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

turn based combat

 

That term, in relation to a HERO based Video game is just funny.

[bubba smith]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

how about a NINJA HERO or PULP HERO game

[prestidigitator]

Re: Computer translations of Hero that you would like to see

 

At one point I was thinking of building a MUD/MUSH based on the Hero mechanics (a long time ago--can you tell?). I was going to make the basic "currency" basically a character point, and base the time it took to use skills and abilities on the number of character points in a finished piece of work, as well as using it to calculate the actual money cost of things (and having an optional one-way exchange of earned character points to money). People stopped playing MUDs though. Or at least I did. That kinda put a stop on things.

 

Yeah, I've returned to the idea in a less serious fashion periodically since. My lastest idea is to build a Second Life combat system based at least loosely on Hero System rules and mechanics. Will I get around to it? Hmm....