Question about Hawkman villains

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

And what about Shayera Hol' date=' who died recently during the Rann-Thanagar War? Short hop for the soul?[/quote']

 

Shayera had no connection with the reincarnation cycle. Katar's connection is nebulous, through the Hawk entity. He was alive at the same time as Carter Hall, the Khufu reincarnation, so was not himself a reincarnation. DC continuity holds Cater to have been both the JSA and JLA Hawkman, with Katar having only a brief period as a Hawkman, and no affiliation with either team.

 

And it still doesn't change the fact that there is no relationship between Carter and Kendra except a loose partnership.

 

They had developed a relationship in the Hawkman book, furthered in the Rann-Thanagar war, and broken due to the Hath-Set issue in the Hawkgirl title.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

BTW, I just read the first Hawkman collection by Geoff Johns -- what's this about Hawkman being a 'fascist'? True, most of it was coming from Green Arrow (I get the idea that he calls everybody a 'fascist' at some point or another), but Johns also mentioned it in the introduction.

 

When the heck was Hawkman ever depicted as a fascist? Very rough in a Conan the Barbarian way, yes, but I cannot remember seeing him being depicted as a goose-stepper.

[MitchellS]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

My basic understanding of fascism is that the individual is willing to fore-go his own personal interests and consider the interests of the group/state/country to be of more importance than his own. In some ways every superhero who joins a group and puts aside his own wellbeing for the betterment of the whole is a fascist to some extent.

[Greywind]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

It also reflects the Ultimate Conservative vs the Ultimate Liberal, as Black Canary pointed out, when dealing with the outlooks of Hawkman and Green Arrow.

[Kenn]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

The silver-age version of Thanagarian police officers (including Katar and Shayera Hol) received treatments that would allow them to survive up to five minutes of exposure in outer space.

 

Their ability to communicate with birds was not suppossed to be telepathy. It was just that when they learned all Earthly languages through the absorbascon, they learned the language of the birds.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

Shadow Thief and the Gentleman Ghost are as close to "great" as Hawkman's villains get.

 

I think Shadow Thief's kind of cool. I associate Gentleman Ghost with Batman more... dw

 

Forgot to say I like Shadow Thief as well (though I prefer the animated version; a villain the hero creates out of his own mind all unknowing, just how cool is that?) and Gentleman Ghost became very cool to me after I read the six-issue storyline involving him in the last few issues of the JSA series before DC closed it down.

[pinecone]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

I too have always loved the Hawks...In my mind Hawkman hawkwoman have top end to super human str (say 25 to 35?) and super togh hides, I remember from somewhere it being compared to concrete...so say DR 6 to 12? So flying martial bricks are how I'd look at 'em ...the back stories are a real problem I admit ....

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

I too have always loved the Hawks...In my mind Hawkman hawkwoman have top end to super human str (say 25 to 35?) and super togh hides' date=' I remember from somewhere it being compared to concrete...so say DR 6 to 12? So flying martial bricks are how I'd look at 'em ...the back stories are a real problem I admit ....[/quote']

The Hawks are that tough? Wow, I had no idea they were that durable. I thought maybe extreme human stamina, but that sounds well beyond Captain America range.

[Greywind]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

Hawkman is also on the regen list now. Fast healing for all the abuse he suffers.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

Hawkman is also on the regen list now.

Yeah, well, who isn't?

[Greywind]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Green Arrow, Black Canary...

[pinecone]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

The Hawks are that tough? Wow' date=' I had no idea they were that durable. I thought maybe extreme human stamina, but that sounds well beyond Captain America range.[/quote']

 

It may be based on old info...I built a "Homage" after reading some old reprints and I went with 30 STR DR 12 or so a little combat luck and a "Arenal" I think it was a Multi power with poor acess...but it might have been a VPP that changes under limited circumstances....

[SKJAM!]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

Y'know, it's kind of amusing that we've gone this long on a Hawkman villains thread without actually showing what one of them looks like, so....

 

Byth

 

Player: NPC

 

Val Char Cost

10 STR 0

12 DEX 6

10 CON 0

10 BODY 0

16 INT 6

12 EGO 4

10 PRE 0

10 COM 0

 

2 PD 0

2 ED 0

3 SPD 8

4 REC 0

20 END 0

20 STUN 0

 

6" RUN 0

2" SWIM 0

2" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 24

 

Cost Power

19 Krotan Pill: Shape Shift (Sight, Smell/Taste, Touch and Hearing Groups, any animal), Instant Change (34 Active Points); Affects Body Only (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Only animals Byth has studied in person; -1/4)

133 Animal Powers: Variable Power Pool (Mimicry Pool), 100 base + 33 control cost, (150 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only to duplicate powers of animal Byth is shapeshifted into; -1/2)

21 Trance Gun: Mind Control 10d6 (Human class of minds), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1/2), Area Of Effect (16" Cone; +1) (125 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), Based on CON (Defense: ED; -1), OAF (pistol; -1), No Range (-1/2), Set Effect ("Do Not Notice the Passage of time"; -1/2)

Powers Cost: 173

 

 

Cost Skill

3 Acting 11-

3 Concealment 12-

3 Conversation 11-

2 CuK: United States 11-

3 Inventor 12-

0 Language: Thanagarian (idiomatic) (4 Active Points)

4 Language: English (idiomatic)

2 Language: Thanagarian Thieves' Sign Language (fluent conversation)

3 Mimicry 12-

4 PS: Thief 13-

3 Scientist

3 1) SS: Biochemistry 13- (4 Active Points)

3 2) SS: Biology 13- (4 Active Points)

3 3) SS: Chemistry 13- (4 Active Points)

3 4) SS: Earth Zoology 13- (4 Active Points)

4 5) SS: Thanagarian Zoology 14- (5 Active Points)

3 Security Systems 12-

3 Stealth 11-

7 Streetwise 13-

2 TF: Personal Use Spacecraft, Small Motorized Boats

Skills Cost: 61

 

Cost Perk

15 Follower

1 Reputation: Expert and daring thief (Thrill Thieves of Thanagar) 14-, +1/+1d6

Perks Cost: 16

 

 

Total Character Cost: 274

 

Pts. Disadvantage

15 Hunted: Hawkman and Hawkgirl 11- (As Pow, Harshly Punish)

15 Psychological Limitation: Thrill-seeker (Common, Strong)

15 Psychological Limitation: Conceited (Common, Strong)

10 Reputation: Daring and dangerous thief, 14- (Known Only To Thanagarians)

10 Social Limitation: Illegal alien (Occasionally, Major)

Disadvantage Points: 65

Base Points: 200

Experience Required: 9

Total Experience Available: 9

Experience Unspent: 0

 

 

APPEARANCE

Hair Color: Bald (black eyebrows)

Eye Color: Black

Height: 1.80 m

Weight: 70.00 kg

Description:

Thanagarians, as it happens, look exactly like Caucasian humans. Go figure. Byth is bald, making him look older than he actually is. He's slim, and usually has a sly look on his face even when not actually planning anything. He doesn't have a costume as such, but will dress flashily for the culture he's currently in.

BACKGROUND

Byth was born and raised on the planet Thanagar, which hosted an advanced humanoid civilization. Thanagar was a post-scarcity society, where poverty and disease had been eliminated eons ago. Indeed, there had not been war or crime on Thanagar in so long that the very concepts were only known to historians. But one problem that had never been fully eliminated on Thanagar was boredom, and Byth had that in spades.

 

When Byth was in his teens, bandits called the Man-Hawks attacked Thanagar, robbing and plundering at will. Having no police or military, the Thanagarians were intially helpless. But Paran Katar, a noted scientist, developed some of his discoveries into weapons to battle the raiders. Afterwards, the Thanagarian government created a police/defense force called the Hawkmen, based on those same weapons.

 

But Byth and some of his fellows were inspired by the Man-Hawks in a different way. They began to steal for kicks, spurring each other to more daring and "impossible" thefts. Battling against the Thrill-Thieves became the primary occupation of the Hawkmen.

 

Eventually, Byth learned of the work of one Krotan, who was developing a pill that would allow a human to assume the shape of any living thing. Krotan planned to use it to aid field observation of animals. Byth overpowered Krotan, accidentally killing him, and stole the pill. For reasons not clear in the narrative, Byth chose to move off-planet to Earth to continue his criminal career.

 

Using Thanagarian technology in his spacecraft, Byth learned English from Earth transmissions, and upon arriving spent some time familiarizing himself with both the local culture and Earthly wildlife. He committed petty crimes to get Earth clothing and money to better blend in.

 

Unbeknownst to Byth, by the time he felt ready to commit the daring crimes he'd come to Earth to perform, Katar and Shayera Hol of the Hawkmen had traced him to the planet and found cover identities for themselves. Byth and his pursuers clashed several times before Hawkman and Hawkgirl were finally triumphant. They shipped the criminal back to Thanagar, where his shapeshifting ability was removed.

 

But the Hawkmen had not counted on Byth's cunning. He'd already used his own scientific knowledge to reverse engineer the Krotan pill, and used sign language to communicate with a confederate, who then smuggled in the necessary chemicals. His powers now restored and shared with his gang, Byth carried out robberies on Thanagar until Katar and Shayera Hol (who themselves had returned to Thanagar) figured out how to track and trap the thieves.

 

PERSONALITY

Byth is easily bored and desires "thrills," which he finds most pleasing when he uses his wits and powers to perform daring thefts. He's a bit too in love with his own cleverness, and likes being praised by his thrill-thief peers. While he's perfectly willing to kill in the course of his crimes, it is never the point of them--he just places no particular value on human life. He can easily be goaded into taking foolish chances if it will net him the kind of prestige he desires.

 

QUOTE

"This is the kind of challenge I've been waiting for! The actual value of the Star means nothing to me! All I want is the thrill of stealing it!...Against 'impossible' odds...!"

 

POWERS/TACTICS

Byth is an enthusiastic amateur thief and a surprisingly skilled scientist. Under the influence of the Krotan Pill, Byth can change his shape to that of any animal he's carefully observed. (Theoretically, he could also imitate any given person, but Byth never demonstrates this facet of the power.) Since Byth has made an extensive study of both Thanagarian and Earth animals, he has a wide selection to pull from. While in an animal's form, he possesses all the natural abilities of that animal.

 

Byth has also created a Trance-Gun, which causes its victims to fall into a state where time passes too fast for them to perceive. While the gun's effects are invisible, it exhausts itself after one firing, so is of limited usefulness.

 

As a thief, Byth's preferred tactic is to break in and steal things, then get away. His ego, however, means that he must do so in surprising and unusual ways. He prefers never to repeat a shape or trick he's already used recently. If forced into combat, Byth will pick a form that seems suited to the situation, and use its powers intelligently. He has no compunctions about fleeing if outmatched, tired or injured.

 

CAMPAIGN USE

Byth first appeared in The Brave and the Bold #34, "Creature of a Thousand Shapes!" by Gardner Fox and Joe Kubert.

 

Byth makes a good challenge for a versatile solo character, or a low-powered team. If he needs to be more powerful, up the value of his VPP, and give him a couple of combat skill levels If he needs to be less powerful, confine his ability to Earth animals.

 

The Iron Age version of Byth was a Casual Killer drug pusher, but honestly that version kind of sucked. For something closer to the spirit of the Silver Age version but still modern, make him an "extreme sports" fanatic for whom the Krotan pill represents a whole new level of stupid stunts to pull.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

Just got the fourth Hawkman collection, and aside from some confusion (zombies attacked St. Roch? When, exactly?) I liked it.

 

But the villains, sheesh...

 

Fadeaway Man? Has a magic cape that allows him to go intangible and invisible. Okay, not too bad.

 

Hummingbird? She has bird wings, and makes explosives, and apparently has super-speed. And oh yeah, she's a giggling sociopath who kills people for laughs -- considering just how bloodthirsty Hawkman is, I have a hard time seeing him let someone like this just waltz off to jail. Hey, if the Joker tried his crap with Hawkman, his brains would be scattered across half of St Roch with that big honkin' mace. But she's a girl so it's apparently different.

 

Lion-Mane, as mentioned before -- big anthro lion with superhuman strength and claws, likes to eat people and lay on a bed surrounded by gorgeous naked women. Okay, I like furries, so I'll give him some points on that score, but are all the DC villains psychopaths now?

 

Lasso -- He's a cowboy! With a lasso! And he can choke you! And he can threaten a guy who's faced down Black Adam and Onimar Synn! :faceplant:

 

The Purple Pilgrim -- dead Pilgrim warlock sent to Hell who's coming back for revenge on Speed and Kendra Saunders, descendants of his killer. Okay, he's powerful, and I like evil undead sorcerors -- but as Grace from Outsiders would put it, "The Purple Pilgrim? The G**d**n Purple Pilgrim?"

 

Now I know why you don't see very many of these guys outside of the Hawkman title. If Hawks had to admit to Green Arrow or the Flash that he fought guys like this, he'd be laughed out of every superhero group in the DC-verse.

[OddHat]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

J but are all the DC villains psychopaths now?

 

In the 60s and 70s, most DC villains were guilty of "crimes" on the lines of dropping giant cream pies on Gotham, trying to visit sites important in the life of Albert Einstein to pay their respects on his birthday, or stealing famous pieces of theme jewelery. Now they're almost all psychopathic killer cannibals. And then we (Hero Boarders) have arguments over which is more realistic.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

In the 60s and 70s' date=' most DC villains were guilty of "crimes" on the lines of dropping giant cream pies on Gotham, trying to visit sites important in the life of Albert Einstein to pay their respects on his birthday, or stealing famous pieces of theme jewelery. [/quote']

 

True enough.

 

Now they're almost all psychopathic killer cannibals. And then we (Hero Boarders) have arguments over which is more realistic.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to have some clowns, some psychos, and the majority in between somewhere? Not all real-world criminals are petty vandals or Jeffrey Dahmer, after all.

[assault]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to have some clowns' date=' some psychos, and the majority in between somewhere? Not all real-world criminals are petty vandals or Jeffrey Dahmer, after all.[/quote']

 

True, but the superheroic genre lends itself to exaggeration. The clowns, psychoes and psycho clowns are pretty much guaranteed to be overrepresented.

 

The exact proportions will vary.

[pinecone]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

True, but the superheroic genre lends itself to exaggeration. The clowns, psychoes and psycho clowns are pretty much guaranteed to be overrepresented.

 

The exact proportions will vary.

 

"I'll take Psycho-Clowns for 200"

"Change the shape of spagettios or the city will Die!"

[Twilight]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

Just got the fourth Hawkman collection, and aside from some confusion (zombies attacked St. Roch? When, exactly?) I liked it.

 

But the villains, sheesh...

 

Fadeaway Man? Has a magic cape that allows him to go intangible and invisible. Okay, not too bad.

 

Hummingbird? She has bird wings, and makes explosives, and apparently has super-speed. And oh yeah, she's a giggling sociopath who kills people for laughs -- considering just how bloodthirsty Hawkman is, I have a hard time seeing him let someone like this just waltz off to jail. Hey, if the Joker tried his crap with Hawkman, his brains would be scattered across half of St Roch with that big honkin' mace. But she's a girl so it's apparently different.

 

Lion-Mane, as mentioned before -- big anthro lion with superhuman strength and claws, likes to eat people and lay on a bed surrounded by gorgeous naked women. Okay, I like furries, so I'll give him some points on that score, but are all the DC villains psychopaths now?

 

Lasso -- He's a cowboy! With a lasso! And he can choke you! And he can threaten a guy who's faced down Black Adam and Onimar Synn! :faceplant:

 

The Purple Pilgrim -- dead Pilgrim warlock sent to Hell who's coming back for revenge on Speed and Kendra Saunders, descendants of his killer. Okay, he's powerful, and I like evil undead sorcerors -- but as Grace from Outsiders would put it, "The Purple Pilgrim? The G**d**n Purple Pilgrim?"

 

Now I know why you don't see very many of these guys outside of the Hawkman title. If Hawks had to admit to Green Arrow or the Flash that he fought guys like this, he'd be laughed out of every superhero group in the DC-verse.

 

Well too be fair there's not much wrong with The Purple Pilgrim or Hummingbird that a name change wouldn't cure. I'd say the Hummingbird actually makes a good match for Hawkman, with her speed being a counter for his strength.

 

Lionmane gets a pass in my opinion. If an anthropomorphic wildcat can be a threat to Wonder Woman then it can be a threat to Hawkman as well.

 

The only really embarassing one there is Lasso but then Flash has the Turtle on his Rogue's Gallery and Batman has had recurring villians like Tweedledee and Tweedledum so he's not likely to get laughed at two much.

[Hermit]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

Okay, not so much for feeding on humans, but Lion-Mane's sleeping accommodations scores him points.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

Okay' date=' not so much for feeding on humans, but Lion-Mane's sleeping accommodations scores him points.[/quote']

 

I can just imagine this dialogue between Lion-Mane and Hawkman:

 

HAWKMAN: "Lion-Mane! [sMASHES HIM IN FACE WITH BIG HONKIN' MACE] You just ate a dozen people! How do you sleep at night?"

 

LION-MANE: "On top of a mattrrress stuffed with hundrrred-dollar bills, surrrounded by gorrrgeous naked women."

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

Well too be fair there's not much wrong with The Purple Pilgrim or Hummingbird that a name change wouldn't cure. I'd say the Hummingbird actually makes a good match for Hawkman' date=' with her speed being a counter for his strength.[/quote']

 

Yeah, Purple Pilgrim would be way cool if not for that stupid name. I mean, an undead Puritan necromancer, how cool is that?

 

And I do like Hummingbird as a villain.

 

Lionmane gets a pass in my opinion. If an anthropomorphic wildcat can be a threat to Wonder Woman then it can be a threat to Hawkman as well.

 

Yes, but Cheetah is a beautiful cat-woman, so I'll give her more leeway than I would Lionmane. Hmm, LM and Cheetah are both scarfing down human flesh these days -- maybe they should double date or something.

[Twilight]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

Yeah, Purple Pilgrim would be way cool if not for that stupid name. I mean, an undead Puritan necromancer, how cool is that?

 

And I do like Hummingbird as a villain.

 

 

 

Yes, but Cheetah is a beautiful cat-woman, so I'll give her more leeway than I would Lionmane. Hmm, LM and Cheetah are both scarfing down human flesh these days -- maybe they should double date or something.

 

I'd actually thought that myself. They'd seem to make a pretty good couple as villains go. As for leeway, well so long as Cheetah is a genuine threat to Wonder Woman, Hawkman doesn't get laughed at for having Lionmane as an enemy.

[OddHat]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

Comics and cannibalism: Perfect together.

 

Making villains a real threat is fine, a little camp or gross humor can work now and then, but when large numbers of villains (and a few "heroes") are chowing down regularly on their foes, and it's not meant as parody, a writer has to ask himself if he really has any ideas left.

 

It's like a teen screaming "Look at me! I'm Extreme!" Only, as the screamers are guys in their 30s and 40s, without the cute factor.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Question about Hawkman villains

 

Comics and cannibalism: Perfect together.

 

Making villains a real threat is fine, a little camp or gross humor can work now and then, but when large numbers of villains (and a few "heroes") are chowing down regularly on their foes, and it's not meant as parody, a writer has to ask himself if he really has any ideas left.

 

 

I do keep wondering why all the "animal-people" at DC are not just evil but monstrous. I'm waiting for the storyline in which we find out that Tasmanian Devil has been secretly devouring his lovers as "the ultimate act of love".