Buying a Perk, Independent, Charges Never Recover....

[Lucius]

No, really, I'm not.

 

But some things said in another thread started me thinking.

 

Yeah, there are plenty of delusional people in the world.

 

"Why are you taking Independant on all your powers?"

 

"Because I needed the points. I know you won't actually take them away from me, because then my character would be totally useless."

 

I've actually heard that basic conversation before. More than once.

 

Overall, I don't like Charges Never Recover for the same reason I dislike Independent. Both give a significant cost reduction in exchange for the points spent ultimately disappearing permanently. The character starts out overpowered, since they have more pre-limitation points to work with, and there is no limiting factor until the charges run out or the item disappears.

 

What happens when the, say, 50 points spent on such items disappear? Now the once-overpowered character must limp aong 50 points behind his teammates. Well, that was the drawback of the limitation, right? Or the player decides it's time to retire the (now underpowered) character and build a new one. "You'll let my new character have XP to be on par with the rest of the group, right?" Bet on eiither another character with a bunch of Charges Never Recover, or a whiny player.

 

Bottom line: it's no fun for everyone else if the power never runs out of charges, and that one character gets to stay overpowered. It's no fun for the guy who took the limitations when the power does run out and he has to limp along in his now-depowered state.

 

And what I'd like to ask is; if you're one of those people with a dislike of things like Independent and Charges that don't Recover, do you feel the same way about Perks? They seem to me to be very much alike, in that they are things a character spends points on that can be taken away in play, causing those points to be lost entirely and permanently.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a profoundly permanent palindromedary

[SableWyvern]

Re: Buying a Perk, Independent, Charges Never Recover....

 

Actually, the rules specifically mention that characters regain points for lost Perks, except where otherwise noted. The exceptions are Anonymity, worth 3 points, and Deep Cover, worth 2. Not exactly huge blows to most characters if the points are lost.

[MitchellS]

Re: Buying a Perk, Independent, Charges Never Recover....

 

The exceptions are Anonymity' date=' worth 3 points, and Deep Cover, worth 2. Not exactly huge blows to most characters if the points are lost.[/quote']

Even then I'd give those points back to the player if those perks were lost to them.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Buying a Perk, Independent, Charges Never Recover....

 

And what I'd like to ask is; if you're one of those people with a dislike of things like Independent and Charges that don't Recover, do you feel the same way about Perks? They seem to me to be very much alike, in that they are things a character spends points on that can be taken away in play, causing those points to be lost entirely and permanently.

 

Everything about points that can be permanently lost bugs me. If it's only a few points, I'd almost be inclined to let you start with it for free; if it's something bigger, better to find it in play.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Buying a Perk, Independent, Charges Never Recover....

 

I use these particular Limitations if I want to model Equipment (or Equipment like Powers) in a Heroic Game. They are also good if you are using the Equipment Pools from Dark Champions and the Real Point cost of something is important.

 

(except for Perk, which is noted above that you get the points back.)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Buying a Perk, Independent, Charges Never Recover....

 

Actually' date=' the rules specifically mention that characters regain points for lost Perks, except where otherwise noted. The exceptions are Anonymity, worth 3 points, and Deep Cover, worth 2. Not exactly huge blows to most characters if the points are lost.[/quote']

 

you forgot Favors, which are essentially Contacts with Charge Never Recovers

[Lucius]

Re: Buying a Perk, Independent, Charges Never Recover....

 

Actually' date=' the rules specifically mention that characters regain points for lost Perks, except where otherwise noted. The exceptions are Anonymity, worth 3 points, and Deep Cover, worth 2. Not exactly huge blows to most characters if the points are lost.[/quote']

 

Does it now? Just shows I should double check the rules before posting something.

 

Am I remembering a rule from an earlier edition? I’m pretty sure most of these things (like followers especially) were previously, if not under the current regime, specified as being vulnerable to being “lost forever.”

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary in fact recalls something in, was it Justice INC? that said if an animal companion dies, the points are gone for good. “Now you know why Timmy cried when Lassie died…..”

[OddHat]

Re: Buying a Perk, Independent, Charges Never Recover....

 

I don't allow independent or charges that never recover, and I don't take away points in play for lost perks; the player gets them back and we'll work out something new to spend them on.

 

I also explain to players that I take the view that limitations and disadvantages are not exclusively there to save points (though that can be part of why you take them); they are there as a request from the player to the GM that a given element be introduced in the story. When the player places OAF on his character's Power Staff, his asking me as the GM to occasionally have scenes where that staff is taken away; if he doesn't want scenes like that, he shouldn't take the limitation.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Buying a Perk, Independent, Charges Never Recover....

 

Well, I'm not one to say "never" to any Power or Modifier. You never know when one of these items that seem abusive or munchkiny will turn out to be just the thing for a tricky construct. I've used "Never Recovers" in the past to model a particular magic system, and "Independent" just recently for an item intended for superheroic play.

 

In the first case, the system called for all magic spells to be powered by a reserve of personal energy renewed through special rituals and meditations. Whenever the spellcaster performed the rituals the reserve would increase, and as long as he avoided using that energy for a spell it would continue to grow without limit; but casting a spell would drain the reserve until the character had the opportunity to perform the necessary rituals again. At first glance an END Reserve with Limited Recovery would seem appropriate for this, but an END Reserve is bought with a finite upper limit.

 

What I did was apply the "Never Recovers" Limitation from Charges (-2) to the END Reserve, so that when the points in END are expended they're "permanently" gone. However, I allowed spellcasters who successfully performed the appropriate rituals (using various combinations of Skill Rolls, lengthy meditations, expendable materials, and so on) to earn Experience Points usable solely to buy more END for their Reserve. Since the points were going directly to more END the Reserve could grow freely.

 

In the second case, I devised a special "enchanted" item. Said item doesn't actually have any innate powers; it's merely the receptacle for a spell cast by someone else (a Triggered Power) which someone who doesn't have that Power can use when desired. As a side effect of the spell on the object, it also possesses an additional minor Power. I built this minor Power with Independent, because when the main spell on the object is expended the secondary ability is also lost.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Buying a Perk, Independent, Charges Never Recover....

 

you forgot Favors' date=' which are essentially Contacts with Charge Never Recovers[/quote']

 

yep.

[JmOz]

Re: Buying a Perk, Independent, Charges Never Recover....

 

Personaly I could see some uses for charges never recover, or independent, but they should be something special that the player understands will be taken away from him eventualy and he will be expected to keep playing said character. I did have a character with a +5d6 EB, Costs End, 4 charges never recovered, x10 end. Played him for a year, used up 2 of his charges. It was a nice flavor power (He had a 8d6 eb 0 end, +4 EB, +3d6 x2 End)

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Buying a Perk, Independent, Charges Never Recover....

 

I have a bigger problem with Charges Never Recover than I do with Independent. Independent at least gives you a chance to get the item or power back again.

[OddHat]

Re: Buying a Perk, Independent, Charges Never Recover....

 

What I did was apply the "Never Recovers" Limitation from Charges (-2) to the END Reserve, so that when the points in END are expended they're "permanently" gone. However, I allowed spellcasters who successfully performed the appropriate rituals (using various combinations of Skill Rolls, lengthy meditations, expendable materials, and so on) to earn Experience Points usable solely to buy more END for their Reserve. Since the points were going directly to more END the Reserve could grow freely.

 

Matter of point of view and simplicity of build, from my own pov. I'd say you didn't take the points away permanently; you took away the END until a particular ceremony was performed to regain it. After the ceremony, the lost points were back. The argument can be made that they could have used that time to build a higher END reserve if they hadn't burned END on their spells; not sure I entirely agree. Seems more a case of the player choosing how tough he wants the adventure to be (by using or not using his END reserve), and XP awards being adjusted accordingly.

 

Not intended as a criticism; sounds like it worked well in play. Just not what I think of when it comes to permanent point loss; in this case, the player who "lost" points also has a chance to get them back not open to those who didn't.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Buying a Perk, Independent, Charges Never Recover....

 

Matter of point of view and simplicity of build, from my own pov. I'd say you didn't take the points away permanently; you took away the END until a particular ceremony was performed to regain it. After the ceremony, the lost points were back. The argument can be made that they could have used that time to build a higher END reserve if they hadn't burned END on their spells; not sure I entirely agree. Seems more a case of the player choosing how tough he wants the adventure to be (by using or not using his END reserve), and XP awards being adjusted accordingly.

 

Not intended as a criticism; sounds like it worked well in play. Just not what I think of when it comes to permanent point loss; in this case, the player who "lost" points also has a chance to get them back not open to those who didn't.

 

Fair enough. Of course if the character burned 20 XP worth of END, and he only had the time and resources to regain 3 XP, he's out of luck. And the effort used to regain his END was effort not used for other gains, like resting to heal BODY or regain LTE, training to improve other Skills, etc., so it wasn't clearly a net gain for the character vs. other PCs.

[GamePhil]

Re: Buying a Perk, Independent, Charges Never Recover....

 

I don't care for Charges Never Recover, myself, except for GM made items. The current McGuffin, if it gets built at all (I usually build them, but I'm weird that way), can have a few such Charges. For PC's, I usually have them use difficult to recover charges, instead. I don't care for PC's being at different point levels most of the time.

 

Independent I have used for several things. One fantasy game used a system of common magic, where you don't pay points for individual spells, and Independent was used as part of the spell/magic item research system. The character would buy the new ability and it would go into the pool of common magic, effectively independent from the character but still usable.

 

Both of the Limitations I'll use if it is across an entire group. If everyone has 20 points they'll lose eventually, it's not really a problem. I'll also use them for games where there are "caches" of points laying around: you get 5 points from a unicorn's horn to make a device that defeats poisons, and so on.