Superhero power levels

[Guest steamteck]

The Hulk vs. Superman thread got me to thinking How characters all have power level creeps. To me there is a point where they're great after which my suspension of disbelief starts to break down

Strangely Superman is probably my favorite hero but I don't care fro the power levels of most versions. Mu favorite two are the TAS superman and the Earth 2 Superman ( Grey haired guardian)as he appeared in All Stars comics. Wonder Woman is cool but she is not so tough she is REVIVED by reentry. Again TAS did a great job.

 

The classic marvel characters were at levels I was comfortable with now not so much. I would much prefer weaker characters who use their powers efficiently than strong ones who have to become weak and stupid to make the story interesting.

 

That's the great thing about RPG games I suppose you can make the characters you want and play them well, in character and not stupidly. Its interesting how tough some of these characters should be and how not tough others would be if not for plot power.

[Pariah]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

Good points. Rep to thee!

 

Personally, I think the comics would be a lot more consistent and fun to read if the writers had character write-ups to work from:

 

"Hmm...Hulk has a 125 STR and 75% Damage Reduction for PD and ED. Superman has only 100 STR, but he's got Tactics at 15-, full Life Support, three more HTH levels, and two extra points of SPD. Guess we'll just have to play it out before we write the next issue...."

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

Good points. Rep to thee!

 

Personally, I think the comics would be a lot more consistent and fun to read if the writers had character write-ups to work from:

 

"Hmm...Hulk has a 125 STR and 75% Damage Reduction for PD and ED. Superman has only 100 STR, but he's got Tactics at 15-, full Life Support, three more HTH levels, and two extra points of SPD. Guess we'll just have to play it out before we write the next issue...."

 

 

That would be so cool!! And ultimately make battles more believable.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

That's pretty much inevitable for any character that has been published for any length of time and has had multiple writers.

 

Make two copies of your favorite Champions character. Give each copy to two different players. Give each of them 60 xp to spend and see just how different the characters end up. And of course those characters will be even more different if you let those two players play them for a year or two...

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

Actually since my group tends to agree with me a character's strength or such tripling makes no sense unless they're technological or buying new spells they spend XP on skills or combat levels. A good editor who cared about it could keep things under control.

[Victim]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

That's pretty much inevitable for any character that has been published for any length of time and has had multiple writers.

 

Make two copies of your favorite Champions character. Give each copy to two different players. Give each of them 60 xp to spend and see just how different the characters end up. And of course those characters will be even more different if you let those two players play them for a year or two...

 

I think you could get a pretty wide disparity in play just from different players (different preferred tactics, rules knowledge, and overall playstyle) or from changing the GM (enemy types/builds, importance of FX vs exact writeups, interpretations, etc) without touching a thing on the character sheet.

[OddHat]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

As Susano has pointed out many times, characters in serial fiction often end up with massive point totals from a HERO pov, accumulating long lists of skills, talents, perks and powers, most of which they completely forget to use in key stories. "Captain Strange, the Brain Devil" has every psychic power in the book around 1942, yet is nothing more than a normal pilot with minimal detective skills by 1948; Doc Savage and Nick Carter go from Perfect Men to Uber-Men to just slightly above average detectives and back again over the course of their careers, not something I'd care to play out over a campaign.

 

Personally, I was always much more an Avengers / Defenders / JLA / Legion fan than a fan of the X-Men.

[Certified]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

Actually since my group tends to agree with me a character's strength or such tripling makes no sense unless they're technological or buying new spells they spend XP on skills or combat levels. A good editor who cared about it could keep things under control.

 

I agree there should be a consistency in comics but as long as it's logical character's should be able to spend experience to improve their abilities.

 

In comics you see these huge shifts in a characters power depending on the writer and even sometimes just the storyline. However, when looking at a game you have the slower more linear progression. I don't think there have been many comics that show a hero growing into their abilities well. It's a difficult task when you look at one issue a month and you still are trying to tell an overall story.

 

For what it's worth I think a good example of a character coming to understand his abilities through the course of a series was in Preacher even if he only ever used a fraction of what he was capable of.

 

I think as long as the challenge fits the character a lot can be forgiven but one think that kills me are the sudden spikes of; how did they learn this or how to do that or since when can they do that. Give us some explanation as to why they can now do X or show us pushing their limits even outside of the threat situation.

 

Well there you go, 2 cents.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

I must be reading the wrong Doc Savage stories but then I've only read the first 80 or so but he always seems pretty larger than life to me. in some a little less so later perhaps but still pretty awesome. Incredibly minor fluctuations compared to many Superheroes. Doc Savage can't barely tip over his car ( big 2 ton armored job in the mindless monsters) then in "the land of Terror "throw it at the dinosaurs like a shot putt.

Still over long periods these characters may change to suit what the public is felt to what but only in comics do they change whole orders of magnitude of power. I just don't see this level of inconsistency in any other medium

I've had this conversation before anyway and everyone but my wife, best friend and Sinanju usually just tell me I'm expecting too much.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

I understand that there is always some variation with characters when writers and editorial guidelines change at the major publishers. What irks me is that both publishers went through the trouble of publishing official handbooks to quantify and standardize their characters in the 1980s. Now, if I were an editor at Marvel I would say, "Go pull the handbook and take at look at some of this character's old books. What you have them doing here doesn't seem quite right. If you can convince me this is for the better, it's in. If not, you'll need to tweak it."

 

Of course I wouldn't last too long as an editor. The talent has a lot of the power now.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

Some editors-in-chief have been better than others. The current regime at Marvel is... well, it leaves a lot to be desired.

 

Whatever you may think of Big Jim Shooter's early writing, post-Marvel work, or the fact that he let Jean Grey get brought back from the dead on his watch (Jim! How could you!), he maintained a great deal of editorial control over the Marvel U. He insisted on strict adherence to continuity not just with reference to a character's earlier adventures, but when characters from one title appeared in another.

 

Sure, he was a jerk in some ways (his ban on gay characters chafes my hide), but I respect the fact that he wanted his writers to respect what had gone before.

[OddHat]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

I must be reading the wrong Doc Savage stories but then I've only read the first 80 or so but he always seems pretty larger than life to me. in some a little less so later perhaps but still pretty awesome. Incredibly minor fluctuations compared to many Superheroes. Doc Savage can't barely tip over his car ( big 2 ton armored job in the mindless monsters) then in "the land of Terror "throw it at the dinosaurs like a shot putt.

 

Two slightly different topics there. I haven't read the first 80 or so Doc Savages; I've read about 5-10 of the early stories, 5-10 from all over the series to get a feel for Pat and Johnny Sunshine, and the last 4-5, and the Farmer and Murray stories. The power drop off towards the end of the original series seems fairly clear to me, and has been cited by Farmer and Murray in essays, but there's not much point in arguing about it. I agree that he never jumped to Car Throwing power levels, but then that level of strength for a human was never part of his concept or setting.

Still over long periods these characters may change to suit what the public is felt to what but only in comics do they change whole orders of magnitude of power. I just don't see this level of inconsistency in any other medium

Again, we're kind of talking past each other. Yes, comic book characters vary more in raw power than characters in genres where superpowers are not central to the story; that's your point (I think), and I agree. My point is that characters in any adventure serial format, especially with multiple authors, tend to accumulate and lose huge numbers of skills, contacts, perks, gadgets, and sometimes powers as they pass from story to story and author to author. Even with one author it happens; look at how often John Carter forgot he could jump or read minds when those powers would have interfered with the plot, or how profoundly stupid he occasionally became.

 

I've had this conversation before anyway and everyone but my wife, best friend and Sinanju usually just tell me I'm expecting too much.

 

Wanting consistent quality and a respect for continuity in a serial adventure story is natural. I like it to, and the lack of it is part of what kills my interest in much of the product of the big two comics companies.

[Lord Fyre]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

Good points. Rep to thee!

 

Personally, I think the comics would be a lot more consistent and fun to read if the writers had character write-ups to work from:

 

"Hmm...Hulk has a 125 STR and 75% Damage Reduction for PD and ED. Superman has only 100 STR, but he's got Tactics at 15-, full Life Support, three more HTH levels, and two extra points of SPD. Guess we'll just have to play it out before we write the next issue...."

 

Problem with the "character sheet" idea is:

• Superman has been in continuous publication (often in multiple titles) since June of 1938!
  
• Hulk, is no slouch either though. He has been dealing with his anger management issues since May of 1962.

By the character sheet therory, how much experience is that?

[Narratio]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

One of the wierd Superboy stories from early 60's, when he was being drawn as a boy, was a story about his 100 amazing feats, including rescuing a cat from a tree I think. The last feat was standing on his hands to an unimpressed Lana Lang. And later a newspaper report is shown where astronomers note that the moon shifted for a short time.

 

Stories from the mid to late 60's, when he was more of the Curt Swan's "almost a man" drawing style, showed much lower levels of power. Let alone Superman's abilities. So power level inconsistency has always been part of comic characteristics, especially within DC. After all, DC characters go way back to pre-WWII. Marvel characters usually suffer from power creepage rather than inconsistency.

 

One of my favourite characters was DC's the spectre. He went from being a super ghost to having godlike abilities, except when he was with the JSA, when he became a sort of poor mans 'Superman'. And that was all prior to the 50's. Since then he's gone up and done the power scale like a yo-yo.

[Stone]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

Personally' date=' I was always much more an Avengers / Defenders / JLA / Legion fan than a fan of the X-Men.[/quote']

 

 

Depends on who was writing the X-men. To me, the Clairmont, Byrne, & Austin run is still the best. Although I blame Byrne for Wolverine's cult status.

Never was a big Defender's fan myself. Regarding the JLA. I dunno. It's always been difficult for me get into the comic. You have several cosmic level heroes who always seem to have trouble handling villians who had significantly lower power levels. True the JLA did run into some uber-level baddies, but to enough of them IMO.

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

Some editors-in-chief have been better than others. The current regime at Marvel is... well, it leaves a lot to be desired.

 

That is one of the more... generous interpretations I've read in some time of the current Marvel EIC's reign.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

Depends on who was writing the X-men. To me, the Clairmont, Byrne, & Austin run is still the best. Although I blame Byrne for Wolverine's cult status.

Never was a big Defender's fan myself. Regarding the JLA. I dunno. It's always been difficult for me get into the comic. You have several cosmic level heroes who always seem to have trouble handling villians who had significantly lower power levels. True the JLA did run into some uber-level baddies, but to enough of them IMO.

 

yeah, the classic Claremont/Byrne/Austin Xmen were great. The defenders were always hit and miss to me but then Steve Gerber is like that. I favorite comic book team of all time is without doubt Roy Thomas Earth 2 JSA/ALL Star Squadron. I like the JLA also quite a bit although the TAS version is actually IMO way superior to even the best of the comics. The Avengers during the classic Marvel age were on top for me at that age.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

Two slightly different topics there. I haven't read the first 80 or so Doc Savages; I've read about 5-10 of the early stories, 5-10 from all over the series to get a feel for Pat and Johnny Sunshine, and the last 4-5, and the Farmer and Murray stories. The power drop off towards the end of the original series seems fairly clear to me, and has been cited by Farmer and Murray in essays, but there's not much point in arguing about it. I agree that he never jumped to Car Throwing power levels, but then that level of strength for a human was never part of his concept or setting.

 

Doc is definitely a more brittle man of Bronze later but even as late as stories published as 1944 he was still very impressive. Now I did finally read a Doc story where he is basically normal "King Joe kay". The problem was that it was very very jarringly not a Doc savage story even though they used the same names. I do remember Farmer's citing his power drop later. Anyway I guess the difference just seemed like him growing older or something to me not the dramatic difference you see in comics. Lifting Planets was never part of Superman's original concept either but ,well, it got there. What numbers are the last 4 or 5 Docs? reading an early one then a later one would certainly prove the point if you've read both I'll certainly cede the point ( but we weren't arguing anyway,right?) I'm not familiar with Murray what's he done Docwise?

[OddHat]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

Now I did finally read a Doc story where he is basically normal "King Joe kay". The problem was that it was very very jarringly not a Doc savage story even though they used the same names.

 

That's how I felt as well. Same thing happened to Nick Carter and Captain Strange; the names were the same, but the wild adventure and elements of the fantastic I'd associated with the characters were gone.

 

What numbers are the last 4 or 5 Docs?

 

Here's the list I worked off of when I was researching the character: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Doc_Savage_novels

 

I consider Up from Earth's Center the last cannon Doc Savage (and the fantastic is fully back in it), but Escape from Loki by Farmer is actually a pretty good take on the character as a young man, and the Murray/Dent stuff is entertaining.

 

I wasn't expecting as much of a Doc novel in Escape from Loki as Farmer actually wrote; his Doc pastiches (the Doc Calliban books plus Greatheart Silver) were pretty brutal. But his genuine fondness for Doc and the gang shows through in Loki.

 

I'm not familiar with Murray what's he done Docwise?

 

Oct. 1991 Python Isle Lester Dent/Will Murray

Mar. 1992 White Eyes Lester Dent/Will Murray

Jul. 1992 The Frightened Fish Lester Dent/Will Murray

Oct. 1992 The Jade Ogre Lester Dent/Will Murray

Mar. 1993 Flight into Fear Lester Dent/Will Murray

Jul. 1993 The Whistling Wraith Lester Dent/Will Murray

Nov. 1993 The Forgotten Realm Lester Dent/Will Murray

 

Murray is one of the better modern Pulp style writers out there right now; he's done a lot of good Remo Williams books as well as some nice Lovecraft mythos stuff.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

Thanks, I tend to assume nothing new will become available so I didn't see them. I 'm a big Doc fan but pretty much just have the Bantam editions I picked up as a kid. We moved about a year and then I got re interested and most of them are still hiding in storage as we lost tons of bookshelf space. I've read the Doc Caliban stuff, its exciting but definitely not Doc. I"m surprised that farmer could make a good Doc novel, I found his La of Opar a complete loss. I'll check your recommendations out.

[Squall]

Re: Superhero power levels

 

I think the power shifts in comics is due not only to a change in writers/editors (for a consistency issue), but also to the perpetual title-hopping that's so common, and simply the longevity of the characters.

 

I just read in my Essential Iron Fist where he tossed Wolverine around in melee like a chump, and gave Colossus a punch that sent the iron man flying out of the room, big metal arms flailing. Why was he so super badass? Well, not just because he's an awesome character ( ), but because it was HIS title. How many times have we seen Galactic Man beat the pants off Star Lad, because Galactic Man was the guy with his name on the cover? Then a few years (or just a few issues!) later, Galactic Man and Star Lad somehow have another accidental scrap, thrust together by nefarious circumstance, and this time Star Lad wins easily, just because it was Star Lad's monthly, this time.

 

It's hard to have internal power consistency when you've got heroes duking it out all the time with the winner being determined solely by what comic you're reading. Heck, by that measure, Squirrel Girl should just about be running the Marvel Universe by now, she's so powerful.

 

And character longevity. The longevity issue rears its head not only due to new creative teams coming in as time passes, and not only to the simple inevitability of "the longer something keeps going on, the more chances someone has to screw up a little bit," but also because I think there's some (demeaning? incorrect? accurate?) ideas concerning the attention span of comic book fans coming from the writers.

 

If we know Superman is really strong because he can pick up a car in his first issue...how impressed will we be if he picks up a car again next time we read about his adventures? "Whooptie doo," most fans might think, "We already knew he could do that." So they get better and better as time progresses, in a way one-upping themselves constantly. It's been a long time since the Man of Steel was just able to leap a tall building with a single bound, or more powerful than a locomotive. Now he flies across galaxies effortlessly, and shoves around planets. Batman takes on more bad guys, intimidates everyone in the DC universe (not just the cowardly superstitious guys), and makes even more amazing leaps of logic and deduction. Daredevil can bend steel bars simply by sensing with a glance where their week points are, and can sit in the middle of New York city and listen for someone saying his name miles and miles away, all of a sudden. Wolverine kills a hundred ninjas in two pages of snikt-snakt berserker frenzy, not a dozen...and -- hey! -- how many is he gonna cut up next month to keep us impressed?

 

It's a natural progression. Perhaps even an inevitable one; we see it in action movies and their ilk, too, don't we (with few exceptions, isn't the tradition for an action hero's sequel to always try to top the daring stunts and explosions and shoot outs from the first movie)?