Entangle in Fantasy Hero

[Coyotecloudchas]

So here is my problem as GM - Entangle in Fantasy Hero is just too powerful with too few defenses that make sense for FH characters. Since the characters and the opponents they face are typically limited to Normal Characteristic Maximum, that means at best they have 20 STR. A 30 pt "Ice Bonds" Entangle will just about finish off any opponent short of a giant or dragon with 40+ STR that can shrug if off with casual strength. Its particular harsh against any mage that needs Gestures for their spells, and usually less STR. Combine that with hit locations and it doesn't take long before all my players realize the easiest way to take down anyone is to throw an Area Effect Hex net on them and then do several called head shots.

I can do something cheesy and arbitrary like banning Entangles, or giving all their "serious" foes Teleport/Desolid/Damage Shields/40 STR (which is what I do currently). However, it seems like epic villains like Saruman or a Nazgul shouldn't be so afraid of the characters that have to save all their actions to Dive for Cover or Dodge an Entangle. If they get hit once, its over.

I even once told the warrior he'd have to spend five adventures worth of experience if he wanted to make his Area Effect Hex net weapon (I normally don't make them spend points for items) even though he already had all the appropriate crafting skills. He said "fine" and he now has no problem taking down master duelists with ease unless i come up with some sort of cheesy plot device to prevent it.

 

Has anyone else had this problem?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Entangle in Fantasy Hero

 

I generally hate to ban anything, and that Web spell certainly belongs in many a Fantasy game.

 

That said, there's nothing wrong with having a rule on the types of Entangle that may or may not be purchased. Perhaps they must have lower DEF and more dice of BOD.

 

My first line of reasoning is that, if you can do it, so can your opponnets. So if the warrior can have his 1 hex area net weapon, so can his opponent, or the city guard, and that Giant can have a bigger, more durable net. Do we perhaps want to discuss some restrictions that will apply to PC and NPC alike?

 

As to the "poor wizard with gestures on all his spells", maybe he should shell out some points and remove the limitation from some spells. If the GM imposes the "gestures on all spells" rule, then he shouldn't be surprised that anyone with a mage for a enemy wants to Grab or Entangle them.

[azato]

Re: Entangle in Fantasy Hero

 

There is nothing to stop one's comrades from hacking at the entanglement.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Entangle in Fantasy Hero

 

Wouldn't the warrior have to chop through the net before he could get a good hit on the opponent? Off the top of my head, I don't remember this, but entangles take damage from attacks before the one being entangled right?

 

And then once the net is all shredded, the warrior will have to spend time mending it. What if they get attacked again before he mends it? And shouldn't throwing a heavy unwieldy net require "extra time" and maybe "concentration"? etc etc.

 

There's plenty of realisitc ways you can tone down the power of the entangle in question.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Entangle in Fantasy Hero

 

i usually cap the number of dice that can be built into a weapon (like the warrior's) so that it can't be something only a dragon can get out of. my reasoning? even nylon netting has a limit on its tensile strength, and a fantasy net is likely just hemp rope or the like. cap the DEF and BODY of the weapon to that of hemp rope, and viola! or maybe a point or two higher because there are a couple ropes to cut.

 

of course, if its a magic entangle, there is a certain amount of wiggle room with this, but my magic system has "all spells cost END" and "costs END each phase", so for a wussy mage, it won't be long before he's out of juice. also, remember with magic entangles (actually most entangles in this kind of setting) like ice shackles and the like that they should be solid, so to attack someone entangled thusly would help break them free.

 

and as was already stated, turn about is fair play. entangle that warrior once, kill him with a cheap called shot head, then see if he bitches about toning down on the dice in his entangle.

[Markdoc]

Re: Entangle in Fantasy Hero

 

More to the point, I use nets as a tool for grabbing not an entangle. That's historically how they were used in gladitorial combat: to catch an opponent's weapon, to tangle his legs or trip him, to tangle his head and pull him off balance. Not to wrap him up so he can't move.

 

Remember an entangle doesn't just tangle up an opponent: it wraps hims securely so that he can't move, can't use things in his hands and can't get out unless he somehow breaks it. That doesn't sound like a net at all.

 

Basically, a net big enough to throw over an opponent and roll him up so he can't get out, is way too big to throw by hand.

 

A net small enough to throw by hand is way too small to completely entangle a human-sized opponent - but you can use it to tangle a weapon, or an arm or a leg. Let go of it to draw your two handed sword and your opponent will just flick the net away - in other words, it's a grab and requires you to hang on.

 

I give combat nets a +2 bonus to grab maneuvers and you can also use them at -1 to whack people with the weighted ends. They are also "dangerous weapons" which means if you roll a fumble, you entangle or whack yourself!

 

That makes nets useful but not overpowering and solves your fighter/net problem - but for magic, entangles are pretty deadly and need to be carefully watched.

 

cheers, Mark

[Cancer]

Re: Entangle in Fantasy Hero

 

For the "poor mages", you might cost out a no-gestures Dispel working on Entangles only, or perhaps a STR Aid usable only vs. Grabs and Entangles.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Entangle in Fantasy Hero

 

More to the point, I use nets as a tool for grabbing not an entangle. That's historically how they were used in gladitorial combat: to catch an opponent's weapon, to tangle his legs or trip him, to tangle his head and pull him off balance. Not to wrap him up so he can't move.

 

Remember an entangle doesn't just tangle up an opponent: it wraps hims securely so that he can't move, can't use things in his hands and can't get out unless he somehow breaks it. That doesn't sound like a net at all.

 

Basically, a net big enough to throw over an opponent and roll him up so he can't get out, is way too big to throw by hand.

 

i thought that seemed odd, but i figured "what do i know?" so didn't mention it. (reminded of the harpy scene in Jason and the Argonauts) i think the grab thing would work even better than an entangle (altough an entangle could be set not to prevent use of foci, better known as weapons, and with a lo, capped DEF and BODY could still simulate this fairly well (if you still wanted to do it that way) altough i think the grab idea is better. below is a net weapon i would allow built on entangle.

 

Net: Entangle 2d6, 2 DEF, Entangle And Character Both Take Damage (+1/4), Area Of Effect Nonselective (One Hex; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (40 Active Points); Does Not Prevent The Use Of Accessible Foci (-1), OAF (-1), Vulnerable (Common; Slashing Weapons; -1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Limited Range (-1/4), Extra Time (Delayed Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (8 Real Points)

[steph]

Re: Entangle in Fantasy Hero

 

agree with mardoc with a net you can make a grab not a entangle

in a net you can still run, walk ,roll , but entangle is a complete stop

stef

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Entangle in Fantasy Hero

 

That's not an entirely accurate assesment. For starters, NCM does NOT mean that people don't have more than 20 STR, it means they pay double for STR beyond 20.

 

That aside, an Entangle has to hit a characters DCV first unless its AoE. Characters can also Abort to Dodge or D4C vs Entangling attacks. Some Entangles can be missile deflected. Allies can help you escape from an entangle. There's very little reason not to Haymaker vs an Entangle since it can't get out of the way. You can use Escape based maneuvers vs an Entangle.

 

Finally, a 30 AP Entangle vs someone with 20 AP of STR (or less) should be difficult to get out of based solely on the AP involved. It's not a matter of the Entangle being unbalanced, its a matter of it having higher AP than the ability it is resisted with, just like a 30 AP EB (6d6) avgs 21 STUN and 6 BODY while 20 AP of Armor grants only 6 PD / 6 ED -- the attack isn't unbalanced per se, its just more powerful than the opposing defense -- and accordingly more expensive.

[Coyotecloudchas]

Re: Entangle in Fantasy Hero

 

I like the suggestion of limiting non-magic Entangles to the Grab maneuver, and taking out the Area Effect component since that would be too big to effectively carry. If their opponent can Block or use their DCV to avoid the attack it would give at least the Duelists a better shot. Clearly letting our "Engineer" character make a "Net Gun" with an AE Hex Entangle was a big mistake on my part

 

I may also have to re-think my rule about forcing Mages to require Gestures for all their spells, so that players and Master Villains have one or two spells that can be bought without this limitation. Entangles aren't a big deal in Champions because bricks and energy projectors just blast out of them.

[Rapier]

Re: Entangle in Fantasy Hero

 

Nothing wrong with limiting the entangle to 1d6.

 

I would also allow someone with a handy dagger to take a hack at most physical entangles. Doubly so with a Contortionist roll or Double Jointed.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Entangle in Fantasy Hero

 

Unless the net is special (liek being made of metal or enchanted in some way) you could require it to have non resistant DEF (making it easier to cut or burn through).

 

Of course, if you find their tactics too effective, just have a bunch of wimpy goblins/kobolds/whatever use it against them. Turnabout, as they say...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Entangle in Fantasy Hero

 

Nothing wrong with limiting the entangle to 1d6.

 

I would also allow someone with a handy dagger to take a hack at most physical entangles. Doubly so with a Contortionist roll or Double Jointed.

 

Or instead of limiting the Body just give it No Defense (-1 1/2).

 

8 Thrown Net: Entangle 4d6, 0 DEF, Entangle And Character Both Take Damage (+1/4) (50 Active Points); No Defense (-1 1/2), 1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/4), OAF (-1), Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), Range Based On Strength (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) - END=[1 rc]

[swobeas]

Re: Entangle in Fantasy Hero

 

I give combat nets a +2 bonus to grab maneuvers and you can also use them at -1 to whack people with the weighted ends. They are also "dangerous weapons" which means if you roll a fumble, you entangle or whack yourself!

 

 

Very good way to deal with nets. I will try to save this to my brain

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Entangle in Fantasy Hero

 

Unless it's a magic net, it probably has the Real Weapon limitation, which means it can be cut through without too much difficulty, or thrown off/wiggled out of with even less difficulty (just a bit of time). A net doesn't hold you like being encased in ice, so if you've got your favorite sharp-edged thing in your hand when the net goes over you, you can still cut away! And if you're a wizard who needs to gesture, you probably still can (perhaps at a slight penalty). You might even be able to aim and fire a loaded crossbow from under the net.

 

In the case of Frijidayre's Spell of the Frozen Prison, a 30-point entangle is 3 DEF and averages 3 BODY. A 20 STR character can do 1 BODY/phase on an average roll, without Haymakering or Pushing. And even a 10 STR character can make some progress with a Haymaker/Push. A gesturing mage may have a problem, but he should be quite well protected (if he survived the freezing process, that is). If enemies can attack the encased person, that requires a +1/2 Advantage, which makes it a 45 AP power. That's pretty tough! Do your fighters have 3d6 HKA Swords? Or you could reduce the base points to 20 (2 DEF, avg: 2 BODY), which makes it even easier to break out of.

 

Even if all spells require Gestures, some might have Trigger or Delayed Effect, so you don't have to gesture when the power goes off. Stack your rack!

 

I also like what Markdoc said about nets being a weapon with the Grab maneuver, rather than an Entangle.

[Frenchman]

Re: Entangle in Fantasy Hero

 

For one, Nets that are equipment are 2-3d6 entangles, maximum (unless they're magic, of course. But I haven't been dumb enough to hand out magic nets). Secondly, I demand really good explanations of special effects and builds that match them for all spells, especially entangles - my players haven't come up with anything other than ice and dirt that we agree is a 4-5d6 entangle, and those have their drawbacks (melt/lost DEF quickly and no DEF respectively). Because of that, entangles so far have been either 2-3d6, very expensive (and thus difficult to cast and END-intensive) 6d6+, or the aforementioned ones which have their own drawbacks that make it so I don't have to worry too much.

Finally, C: One of the most common spells, up there with Water Breathing and Feather Fall, is LET GO! built thusly:

Let Go!: +25 STR (25 Active Points); Only to Escape Grabs and Bonds (-1 1/2), No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Requires A Magic Roll (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

A common variation (that most powerful villains have) is to add trigger to it.