Telekinesis - Earth Only

[RPMiller]

So as I mentioned in my help needed thread my son and daughter have asked me to teach them the Hero system and run them through an adventure. I decided that I would let them create their own characters rather then using pregenerated ones so that they could have the "whole experience". My son decided that he wants a character that is basically an earth controller and has earth armor, earth surfing, earth physical blast etc. Well one of his powers is earth tk. Now when I asked him about what he would use this for he said so that he could take a chunk of the earth out of the ground and move civilians to safety or shield them or throw it at someone. This of course raised a bunch of questions that I'm not quite sure how I want to go so I'm hoping you good people could give me your ideas and suggestions or point out the specific rules.

 

My problem is that I'm torn between effect and mechanics so I am inclined to say no, he needs some sort of power framework to do all those different things with TK, but if the strength of the TK is high enough and it only works on earth (dirt, stone, etc) why couldn't he use TK to do the above things?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

This is not much different than allowing a brick to repeatedly use cars and other objects of opportunity to get a ranged aoe attack without paying for an appropriate brick-trick. I would offer something similar to what I built for the following magnetic themed TK character.

 

Metalminia

[MorpheousXO]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

I've always liked VPP's for the Master of an Element type, but they can be expensive. I think the main problem there might just be the picking up the earth to move people, though at the same time maybe you don't buy it as only earth, but make it so that it only works if there's earth around to move, and then the sfx of the tk is Earth comes up and does its' thing. The chunk of earth being thrown would just be a regular TK attack with a powerskill roll to make it aoe, or at least that's how I'd think to do it XD.

[RPMiller]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

This is not much different than allowing a brick to repeatedly use cars and other objects of opportunity to get a ranged aoe attack without paying for an appropriate brick-trick. I would offer something similar to what I built for the following magnetic themed TK character.

 

Metalminia

Your example is pretty much what I am already doing. You've broken out all the different effects into separate powers. What I'm wondering is why couldn't all those effects be done just with TK?

[RPMiller]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

I've always liked VPP's for the Master of an Element type' date=' but they can be expensive. I think the main problem there might just be the picking up the earth to move people, though at the same time maybe you don't buy it as only earth, but make it so that it only works if there's earth around to move, and then the sfx of the tk is Earth comes up and does its' thing. The chunk of earth being thrown would just be a regular TK attack with a powerskill roll to make it aoe, or at least that's how I'd think to do it XD.[/quote']

I think you've got it with that one. The effect was what was clogging up the works. I can definitely go that route, but that still leaves the question of what about the earthen dome, or earth armor type powers. I'm thinking that all the offensive powers can easily be TK with the effect being the earth is pulled up to do what needs to be done, and then his defensive powers are bought individually.

 

Ok, that makes more sense to me, and I think I understand what Hyper-Man was saying which was basically the same thing. Am I understanding that correctly now?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

TK, X Only can literally only lift and manipulate that specific object or energy type. I believe the example they use in the book is that if you have TK, Earth only you can't make a big stone scoop in order to lift up a bunch of water.

 

The effect you want would still probably be TK, but would instead have limitations like "Requires Earth/Stone" (like what Hyperman does with his Magnetic powers) and possibly "Physical Manifestation" (to represent that the stone platforms/hand/whatever can be destroyed)

 

Mind you, picking up someone with TK is technically Grabbing them... so they suffer CV penalties and such. If they are supposed to be standing on an earth platform and can thus still fight and dodge around, you may want to go with some other method, such as X" Flight, Ranged, Usable Simultaneously (or Usable As Attack).

[OddHat]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

It's a matter of control and predictability.

 

The Brick who uses his STR to grab a car and make an impromptu wall, or the TKer who does the same thing, is depending on the GM being willing to allow that there's a car there, and the GM allowing him to do it as one attack action. The car only has a car's DEF and BOD.

 

The Brick or TKer who pays for an Entangle or Force Wall has spent the points to have more control over the power. There should always be something he can make into a wall (unless he took limitations to change this), the DEF and BOD are predictable (unless he took limits on this as well), and it's always going to take just one attack action (unless limited).

 

I'd let your son should use his Earth TK to form a wall of Earth, but you as GM would control the DEF and BOD of that wall, and would be free to come up with reasons it didn't work in a given situation. If he wants more predictability than that, ask him to spend points.

[Cygnia]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

The "UNTIL Superpowers Database Revised" book has something like that...

 

Pg. 68 "Earthmoving"

 

TK (30STR) (45 active points); only vs. Earth/Rock (-1/2 limitation). Total cost 30pts.

 

"The character has such control over earth & rock that he can cause them to move without touching them. He can pick someone up on a column of stone and lift that person to the top of a building, create a gigantic earthen fist to smash his foes, or simply clear earth and rock out of the way. He can even shape earth and stone crudely, making simple shapes and 'statues'."

[RPMiller]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

It's a matter of control and predictability.

 

The Brick who uses his STR to grab a car and make an impromptu wall, or the TKer who does the same thing, is depending on the GM being willing to allow that there's a car there, and the GM allowing him to do it as one attack action. The car only has a car's DEF and BOD.

 

The Brick or TKer who pays for an Entangle or Force Wall has spent the points to have more control over the power. There should always be something he can make into a wall (unless he took limitations to change this), the DEF and BOD are predictable (unless he took limits on this as well), and it's always going to take just one attack action (unless limited).

 

I'd let your son should use his Earth TK to form a wall of Earth, but you as GM would control the DEF and BOD of that wall, and would be free to come up with reasons it didn't work in a given situation. If he wants more predictability than that, ask him to spend points.

This was actually going to be my approach until I started thinking too hard about it.

 

I believe that rules are merely guides and should be tweaked as common sense and drama dictate, but when things are cut and dry use the rules as is. In this case, I'm being hyper sensitive because it is their first time playing the Hero system and I need to careful about setting precedents and all that and they are my kids, but in the end fun should rule the day, and I don't want them to become rules lawyers which is something I personally dread.

 

I think I will go with your suggestion, combined with the others above and see how it works out.

[RPMiller]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

The "UNTIL Superpowers Database Revised" book has something like that...

 

Pg. 68 "Earthmoving"

 

TK (30STR) (45 active points); only vs. Earth/Rock (-1/2 limitation). Total cost 30pts.

 

"The character has such control over earth & rock that he can cause them to move without touching them. He can pick someone up on a column of stone and lift that person to the top of a building, create a gigantic earthen fist to smash his foes, or simply clear earth and rock out of the way. He can even shape earth and stone crudely, making simple shapes and 'statues'."

Excellent! That pretty much sums up my concerns and what I was looking for. Thanks for that.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

The others have already given you all the good advice. You pretty much have to choose whether to define all the seperate effects with powers like Force Wall, Entangle, ect. (you could also use a VPP to lump all the effects together) or allow the TK to do all of these things.

 

In my game, I would (and have in the past) allow the TK, but it creates more work. TK is basically STR at Range. In this case it's STR that can only be used to manipulate Earth and Stone (a -1/2 Limitation on the TK). However please note that Earth and Stone, while available in most (but not all) settings, has limited usefulness. A hex of dirt has no DEF and a BODY of only 10, limiting how much damage it can be used to cause or block upto 10 BODY (5ER pg. 448 and 449). A hex of stone, on the other hand, has a DEF of 5 and a BODY of 19, allowing it to be used for multiple attacks or blocks, but a large piece of stone is much less common without tearing down a building.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

I am hopeful that the upcoming Ultimate Energy Projector expands on the use of the Only vs. X Limitation with Telekinesis and related powers.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

Well one of his powers is earth tk. Now when I asked him about what he would use this for he said so that he could take a chunk of the earth out of the ground and move civilians to safety or shield them or throw it at someone. This of course raised a bunch of questions that I'm not quite sure how I want to go so I'm hoping you good people could give me your ideas and suggestions or point out the specific rules.

 

My problem is that I'm torn between effect and mechanics so I am inclined to say no, he needs some sort of power framework to do all those different things with TK, but if the strength of the TK is high enough and it only works on earth (dirt, stone, etc) why couldn't he use TK to do the above things?

I don't see any reason why not. TK should do the job just fine. Remember however, that he's basically putting you in partial control of how effective these uses will be. He can't dictate just how strong a shield will be or how much damage a ball of earth will do. That's a matter of the innate properties of earth, and it's availability in the environment. If he's in a cave that's mostly solid stone, there may be little or no loose dirt or small rocks around for him to pick up.

 

If he buys a multipower (or VPP) with specific slots like EB and Force Wall, then he decides by the amount of points he spent, how strong that EB or FW is. If he piles up dirt to make a barrier, it has the DEF and BODY that you, the GM, decide it should have.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

Does your son see the 'earth only' as a true Limitation (that is, it's actually going to negatively affect the use of the Power in some way that justifies a -1/2 Limitation), or is it just a cool Special Effect? You may be better off just making it straight Telekenesis, or make it -1/4. Of course, that all depends on your son's concept of the Power.

 

I suggest sitting down with your son and letting him know that -1/2 will affect the Power some, -1/4 a little bit, and no Limitation won't affect it at all.

[RPMiller]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

Good suggestion SH, and what I did when I got home. Great minds think alike and all that.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

TK' date=' X Only can literally only lift and manipulate that specific object or energy type. I believe the example they use in the book is that if you have TK, Earth only you can't make a big stone scoop in order to lift up a bunch of water.[/quote']

I'd say that if there happens to already be a big stone bowl sitting there, you can pick it up and use it to scoop up water. But the TK doesn't allow you to mold stone into a particular shape. You could also pick up a big rock that some people are standing on, and they'd come along for the ride (unless they chose to jump off). The extra weight of the water/people *does* count against the STR of the TK.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

I'd say that if there happens to already be a big stone bowl sitting there' date=' you can pick it up and use it to scoop up water. But the TK doesn't allow you to mold stone into a particular shape. You could also pick up a big rock that some people are standing on, and they'd come along for the ride (unless they chose to jump off). The extra weight of the water/people *does* count against the STR of the TK.[/quote']

 

 

I'd call this the difference between "Only earth/stone -1/2" and "only if earth/stone available -1/4". The former means your TK can move, but not mold, earth or stone. The latter would mean you can form an earth scoop and move the water.

 

The former would also allow you to lift your teammates on a conveniently large stone, but would not allow you to lift an equivalent mass of gravel with the teammates standing on it - they'd just fall through the gravel.

[Maur]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

Why would they fall through the gravel? They don't fall through it when it is piled on the ground.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

Why would they fall through the gravel? They don't fall through it when it is piled on the ground.

 

It's thicker when piled on the ground, and typically has something underneath it. How thick is the gravel picked up telekinetically? If the character's TK is adequate to support enough gravel to hold up the various teammmates, that much gravel should allow them to be carried.

 

[i think he needs AoE TK for that, but he needed it to pick up multiple teammates with non-limited TK anyway.]

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

Exactly! TK only applies "strength" to the material that is picked up, it doesn't chang the properties of the substance. I'd say that you could pick up some dirt and mold it into a scoop shape, but that won't stop the water from seeping into the dirt, leaking out the bottom, etc., until you're holding a crumbling mass of loose mud. You could even pick up a large amount of clay and telekinetically shape it into a bowl, but your TK will not fire the clay, hardening it and preventing the water from dissolving it, nnor would it stop heavy objects, such as people, from sinking into it.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

I'd say any characters wanting to ride the gravel-bus would have to make that decision on their own & make DEX checks / grabs / etc. in order to stay on top. If PCs didn't want to be affected by the gravel, they can avoid it with minimal effort. The player controlling the gravel would not be in control.

 

Same for TK - Earth only. If that player lifts a large section of earth with people on it, the people can get off easily if they so desire. If they want to stay on, it will be difficult for them (DEX rolls, grabs, etc., GM deciding how bumpy the ride is).

 

If the player has TK - requires Earth, then the ride can be easier (DEX checks etc. not required), and the TK player can attempt to carry others against their will (bowl or spherical shapes, shifting ground, earthen hands grab ankles, etc.).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

Good points, TaxiMan. I suppose a character who wanted to ride on the loose gravel could carefully lay down to distribute his weight thus slowing down the sinking through process.

[Maur]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

How well the gravel holds up the person would, I would think, be more a function of how well the TK is able to get a grip on the stones and keep them together. Similar to holding a pile of stones in your hand. If you cup your hands around it and have someone try and push down on the stones they don't have anywhere to go to get away from the pushing force, so they stay still. However hold a pile of stones in your flat palm and someone can cause the pile to collapse as they push down which would eventually allow them to fall through the pile.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Telekinesis - Earth Only

 

The Affects Porous Adder might be required to affect a loose pile of material. If that material is actually the medium by which the TK affects other objects it probably should be considered to have the Physical Manifestation Limitation. The individual components of the material may need to be strong enough to support what's being lifted with them.