Rules to ignore, or replace

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Hmmm....1 and 3 yes...technicaly 2 is no....

 

...I agree, but that means that a touch only shapehsift is affecting more than the sense of touch...

 

Difficualt area.

[Vondy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

...I agree, but that means that a touch only shapehsift is affecting more than the sense of touch...

 

Difficualt area.

 

BROKEN!!!!

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

...I agree, but that means that a touch only shapehsift is affecting more than the sense of touch...

 

Difficualt area.

 

I think it is simply another area where the power terminology is getting in the way of the mechanics behind it. I haven't used it and so cannot discuss whether the costs are broken within it but I like the idea behind the mechanics.

 

I like that you can change the way your physical form is arranged without changing your hue - just like plastic man. Obviously there are overlaps with stretching but that is easy to sort out in a power framework of some kind.

 

The topiography of the physical form is obviously what people focus on - people put a lot of emphasis on shape. However the other senses slowly add to the shapeshift until it becomes not simply a change in form but an ability to mimic other things.

 

Now - I think this conforms with Hero design philosophy - put the mechanical effects first and allow them to be used to determine the powers as they appear in the game world. Perhaps the costs should be different somehow - adding extra senses as fixed cost adders and possibly extended to have a real 'Mimic' power which is currently lacking in the game and would probably be very expensive.

 

 

Doc

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Well said, however I would say as part of the write up you would include the limitations for bullets/thrown objects, etc...

 

I do think that catagories are needed, but I think based on defense, with an additional catagory involving F/X (For all magic, or mutant power, etc...)

 

Yeah. I don't want to eliminate the categories, just change them to Limitations rather then as part of the base cost structure. That way you can accurately and fairly model any type of deflecting power or ability. After all, deflecting laser (and only lasers) should cost more in a SF game featuring lots of laser weapons than in a modern earth game where laser weapons are rare, or at least aren't as common as slug throwers.

[schir1964]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Thank you for the lecture. I am aware of how the power works. It is broken as the day is long. Kludge rulings may work around it' date=' but they don't fix it.[/quote']

I don't necessarily disagree with you, and I did not intend to offend you.

 

I'll offer a poser and see what others think.

 

About what percentage of Shapeshift SFX actually require the Shapeshift Power as it is defined in Hero 5th Edition?

 

Just Curious

 

- Chrsitopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Based on everything I've read and responses from Steve Long. This is not the actual result of just having Touch Shapeshift.

 

Once again, the intended purpose of Touch Shapeshift is to allow a change in form or mass distribution, which includes textures, thus the the Touch Sense portion of it.

 

However, any change in form, whether it be Growth, Shrinking, Stretching, or Just Touch Shapeshift is perceivable by any/all appropriate normal senses.

 

Someone who has used Touch Shapeshift to change into a "Tree" form, would be shaped like a Tree and would been seen this way, but in no way would someone looking at such be tricked in to thinking it is a tree and not the character.

 

So people would notice that you have somehow twisted yourself into the shape of tree, but they would still recognize you as yourself due to coloring, facial features, and so forth.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Thank you for the lecture. I am aware of how the power works. It is broken as the day is long. Kludge rulings may work around it' date=' but they don't fix it.[/quote']

 

How is this broken? It works. No kludges. It works as described and intended. By definition that's not broken.

[Mentor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

These are SFX. Functionally' date=' any given Power is identically to any identically purchased Power regardless of SFX. Thinks like how fast it moves really don't matter.[/quote']

 

Agreed, but the powers as purchased are inclusive. The "easy" effects are less expensive than the tougher to stop ones.

 

I can see a point about purchasing each level separately based on SFX more than getting everything for one low price. At least that way, one need not buy all of the missile types.

[Mentor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Not in Hero

 

It is FAR cheaper to travel at the speed of light than at the speed of sound.

 

OK, you got me there, Sean. Repped.

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

How is this broken? It works. No kludges. It works as described and intended. By definition that's not broken.

 

Pretty much my opinion on it as well. I think people have a tendancy to equate "I don't like it" and "broken".

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Pretty much my opinion on it as well. I think people have a tendancy to equate "I don't like it" and "broken".

I don't like macaroni and cheese. Macaroni and cheese is broken.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

...I agree, but that means that a touch only shapehsift is affecting more than the sense of touch...

 

Difficualt area.

 

If you want to turn organge when you fire your EB, that's a visible SFX not Images, Sight Shape Shift or any other power. Shape Shift costs END, so it's visible. The fact your body twists and contorts is simply a visible SFX.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Speed of light is higher and thus costs more than a missile travelling at the speed of sound or a couple of multiples of same.

 

What if I define my RKA as a rock thrown at the speed of light, or a bullet fired at the speed of light? The lower level Deflections still apply. I'd agree that changing the power so it is not defined by SFX would be appropriate. 20 points to deflect all missiles, with "nothing faster than a thrown object" being a limitation defined by the campaign frequency of missiles that can, or can't, be deflected would be just as workable.

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I don't like macaroni and cheese. Macaroni and cheese is broken.

 

 

Exactly!

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

What if I define my RKA as a rock thrown at the speed of light' date=' or a bullet fired at the speed of light? The lower level Deflections still apply. I'd agree that changing the power so it is not defined by SFX would be appropriate. 20 points to deflect all missiles, with "nothing faster than a thrown object" being a limitation defined by the campaign frequency of missiles that can, or can't, be deflected would be just as workable.[/quote']

 

UEP proposes an optional change to the Missile Deflection tiers. I don't have the pdf handy, but as I recall the new tiers are based on the maximum Active Points that can be deflected.

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

UEP proposes an optional change to the Missile Deflection tiers. I don't have the pdf handy' date=' but as I recall the new tiers are based on the maximum Active Points that can be deflected.[/quote']

 

Not tiers, just a base cost to deflect anything, with minuses based on the AP of the incomming attack. Reading through the rules, I like it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I don't like macaroni and cheese. Macaroni and cheese is broken.

 

 

Remind me to cook you dinner one day...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I think it is simply another area where the power terminology is getting in the way of the mechanics behind it. I haven't used it and so cannot discuss whether the costs are broken within it but I like the idea behind the mechanics.

 

I like that you can change the way your physical form is arranged without changing your hue - just like plastic man. Obviously there are overlaps with stretching but that is easy to sort out in a power framework of some kind.

 

The topiography of the physical form is obviously what people focus on - people put a lot of emphasis on shape. However the other senses slowly add to the shapeshift until it becomes not simply a change in form but an ability to mimic other things.

 

Now - I think this conforms with Hero design philosophy - put the mechanical effects first and allow them to be used to determine the powers as they appear in the game world. Perhaps the costs should be different somehow - adding extra senses as fixed cost adders and possibly extended to have a real 'Mimic' power which is currently lacking in the game and would probably be very expensive.

 

 

Doc

 

Nice points, and I agree that there is a certain elegance in dealing with shapeshift as a purely sense affecting problem. The problem to my mind is that it then gives a touch shapeshift, which is pretty cheap, a substantial bonus over other 'senseshifts': you actually ARE changing shape. OK it has not direct combat effect, but no gamer worth their salt (did you know that soldiers used to be paid in salt, which was often considered superior to currency, which is where the expression comes from) will have any difficulty in thinking of at least a couple of uses for such an ability - from being able to get out of ropes and through narrow openings, to being able to cast interesting shadows, and at least pull off a decent imitation of a tree if the light is behind you. That makes touch shapeshift very useful - moreso than the points you pay for it.

 

I have to admit that I don't like the way shapeshift works. Personally I'd completely remove the ability to actually change shape from the shapeshift power, and say that all it can do is change your appearance, and add the ability to actually deform your body and shift mass as an adder to stretching.

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I have to admit that I don't like the way shapeshift works. Personally I'd completely remove the ability to actually change shape from the shapeshift power, and say that all it can do is change your appearance, and add the ability to actually deform your body and shift mass as an adder to stretching.

 

Were I to do something similar, I'd remove Stretching as a seperate power and make it an adder to Shapeshift. It is after all just a specialized type of shapeshifting.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Remind me to cook you dinner one day...

 

BROKEN!!!!

 

 

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Were I to do something similar' date=' I'd remove Stretching as a seperate power and make it an adder to Shapeshift. It is after all just a specialized type of shapeshifting. [/quote']

 

Well, sometimes. Other times Stretching is just a pole-arm, or maybe short range TK... perhaps a webbing power...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Were I to do something similar' date=' I'd remove Stretching as a seperate power and make it an adder to Shapeshift. It is after all just a specialized type of shapeshifting. [/quote']

 

Touche*

 

 

 

 

 

*Pun intended

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Well' date=' sometimes. Other times Stretching is just a pole-arm, or maybe short range TK... perhaps a webbing power...[/quote']

 

Well, yeah. Which is why I wouldn't do it in the first place.

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Touche*

 

 

 

 

 

*Pun intended

 

Well, I would certainly hope so.

[CTaylor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

If bullets are harder to deflect, they should cost more. Except they don't. A thrown spear, an arrow, a bullet and a laser are all a plain ol' RKA 1d6. Since they all cost the same, it should cost the same to defend against them. Or should you also have to pay extra for your Armor if it defends against thrown spears and bullets instead of just thrown spears?

 

Genre shouldn't cost extra. Flavor shouldn't cost extra. SFX shouldn't cost extra.

 

You bring up good points, but powers are typically staged to be more expensive based on how much more effective and how much utility they have. With this change you'd have a flat cost for Missile Deflection and the chance to succeed would be the primary change to cost for it's power.

 

That works out OK and I wouldn't throw a fit if it was changed, but my primary objection have to consider active cost in all this.

 

Let's say someone has a Multipower for their martial arts abilities, one of the slots being Missile Deflection. If you put a flat cost on the power, then you'd have to have a Multipower at least of that power, even if he put a hefty limitation on it to reduce the power to only work on arrows, the power still requires that active cost to use. Same deal with power pools.

 

And when you look at limitations, what would the base cost for Missile Deflection be? The present max of 20? How much of a limitation would you allow for someone who can only deflect thrown objects - would it be enough to get it down to the present cost of 5? Most GMs would laugh if a character said his ability to only deflect thrown objects is worth a -3 limitation, but that's what it would take. Yet is it worth more than 5 points to deflect a spear?

 

In effect, what this power does is to give you "built in" limitations to the max level, big enough ones that they fit the utility of the power with cost, and give you a break on active cost.

 

In other words, if the cost levels are problematic for your game, consider the power to be a 20 active cost power with appropriate limitations to narrow what you're able to deflect. Say you want to deflect only bullets, that costs 15, you got the 20 point power with a limitation to make it cost 5 points less.

[JmOz]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

So we go to my version

 

For all physical would be 10 points, a -1 for thrown items seems reasonable, bringing you to 5

 

For 10 points you can deflect all Energy

 

For 10 points all mental (Why not)

 

For 10 points all powers of a single broad F/X (all magic, all psi, all mutant, etc..)

 

we could even raise it to 15 points a catagory, which actualy I think reflects versitility better,