Rules to ignore, or replace

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I think he might mean that any stun from a suprise attack that gets past defenses be compared to 1/2 of a target's normal CON for purposes of determining if they are stunned.

 

I think it's an interesting idea. Would go a long way towards eliminating the perception by many on this board that it's often easier to knockout HERO character's than it is to stun them.

 

Interesting idea if that is what he meant, though I don't know that I'd be behind it.

 

And it certainly is the case that the higher your CON the easier it is to KO you without ever stunning you. If people feel that their characters are insufficiently able to Stun things they either need to do more damage per attack, or the things they are trying to Stun need to have lower CON stats.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Can someone remind me if the 'double stun when surprised' rule multiplies the stun before or after defences?

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Can someone remind me if the 'double stun when surprised' rule multiplies the stun before or after defences?

 

Before defenses. (5ER p380)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Before defenses. (5ER p380)

 

Thank you.

 

So, CON30 Man would take an average of 84 stun from a 12d6 attack, if surprised, and be stunned if his defences were under 54 points, whereas under the proposed scheme, 27 or more points of defence would see him safe from stunning - and he's have taken a lot less damage.

[jtelson]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

And swimming. Drop swimming too. It's just Flight "Only In Liquids" anyway.

 

And Teleport... as that's just Flight "Does Not Cross Interviening Space".

 

And gotta toss out Running: Flight "Only On A Surface"

 

While we're at it, get rid of FTL... Flight "Goes Really Really Fast"

 

I suppose we could add a sinking slowly in water power, and a getting towed in water power rather than removing redundent moving through air powers, if that makes more sense to you.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I suppose we could add a sinking slowly in water power' date=' and a getting towed in water power rather than removing redundent moving through air powers, if that makes more sense to you.[/quote']

 

Actually, a serious ignore rule possibility would be that silly "dragged or pulled" Limitation for things like dog sleds and wagons. What's wrong with just buying a dog or a horse and giving them enough STR to pull or drag something?

[CTaylor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Right: instead of an attack doing double stun (before defenses) from surprise, it hits you as if you have half as much CON. I've noticed when I walk into a cupboard door I don't collapse unconscious, but it sure hurts like crazy and I'm incapacitated for a second or two. That smacks to me of easier to be stunned, not being hit with more force or making me more likely to fall unconscious.

 

All sarcasm aside, having a flight power with specific limitations is redundant to having flight. Both powers are moving through the air, the only difference is Gliding is cheaper and has special limits. That's simply shorthand for Flight with limitations. You could keep gliding in, but put it in a sidebar: here's how you could build gliding. As it stands, Gliding and Swinging are basically cheap active cost versions of flight with limitations.

 

Oh, and I'd return Instant Change and get rid of the goofy Transform construct. I appreciate the idea behind that but it's just clunky.

 

Other changes: I'd change duplication so that if a duplicate dies, you do not permanently lose points in a power unless you take a limitation that states this. Instead I'd say that you "heal" the points in duplication back over time as if they were lost Body points.

 

Similarly if someone bought the Deep Cover talent and had their cover blown, they would have those points refunded, not lost permanently.

 

I'd make AE powers not harm you when you use them at 0 range if that power is bought 0 range to begin with. You could buy a 1/4 limitation that makes it do so if you chose.

 

I'd change Change Environment to allow powers that are beneficial to the characters.

 

I'd change Transfer to continue to drain points out of the victim even if the points the character can gain from it are maxed.

 

I'd break Tuneling into 2 elements: 1" of tunnel for 2 points, 1 DEF for 3. It is partly build like this at presence, but this construct would allow a 17" tunnel power that only went through 3 defense, for example.

 

I'd make AE (any) 1 hex per 5 points in the power, not 1/10. The area is unbelievably tiny for the cost compared to other AE powers.

 

I'd add an advantage that countered hardened defenses for a 1/4 advantage rather than requiring repeated purchase of 1/2 advantages only to negate another advantage.

 

I'd make doubling your shots in Autofire cost 1/4 advantage, not 1/2. This seems cheap until you realize you have to HIT every time, and you're using up that much more END or that many more charges.

 

I'd change the way being knocked out for a long time worked. Instead of being in steps of 10's, I'd change it to be steps equal to your CON. Thus instead of recovering only at post 12 once you are below -10 stun you would do so at negative stun greater than your CON. Each step would be based on your CON, not 10s.

[GMumford]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Can anyone give me an example of how it would make sense for a hardened defense to stop an indirect attack and not an other wise identical non-hardened defense?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Can anyone give me an example of how it would make sense for a hardened defense to stop an indirect attack and not an other wise identical non-hardened defense?

 

The most obvious would be when an attack with Indirect is used against a character behind a Force Wall. Indirect lets it bypass the Force Wall completely. However. if the Force Wall has Hardened the attack has to get past the Force Wall as normal.

[Dawn Darke]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Shapeshift. Yeah, it's been mentioned, but I'm adding my voice. And the simplifed version in Ultimate Metamorph is way, way too expensive. And the "but not Mentally" bit is a hangon from the book way.

 

Shapeshift is about changing your physical conformation. If you want to futz someone's perception, buy Images.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Shapeshift. Yeah, it's been mentioned, but I'm adding my voice. And the simplifed version in Ultimate Metamorph is way, way too expensive. And the "but not Mentally" bit is a hangon from the book way.

 

Shapeshift is about changing your physical conformation. If you want to futz someone's perception, buy Images.

 

But what is the game effect of changing your physical conformation?

 

Does it allow you to pass through small openings?

No, you have to buy limited Desolidification for that.

 

Does it allow you to form your body parts into weapons?

No, you have to buy HKA or HA for that.

 

Does it allow you to stretch parts of your body?

No, .....

 

I don't think I need to list everything.

 

After we eliminate what it does not cover what are we left with?

A power to change you physical appearance.

 

from dictionary.com

2.the state, condition, manner, or style in which a person or object appears; outward look or aspect: a table of antique appearance; a man of noble appearance.

 

The power does does not give any combat or non-combat effects that aren't appearance related. Sounds like a sense affecting ability to me.

[Dawn Darke]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

But what is the game effect of changing your physical conformation?

 

BEING a different shape, not just seeming to be a different shape.

 

The power does does not give any combat or non-combat effects that aren't appearance related. Sounds like a sense affecting ability to me.

 

This is the exact same pettifogging hair-splitting that lead to the incomprehensible nonsense that's in the rule book, and that even Mr. Long had to simplify in the Ult. Metamorph, which covers the field of shape-changing characters.

 

I have NEVER met anyone who didn't hate the rules in the rules book. Every GM and every player I've met face to face used 4th Ed. Shapeshift, because it's simple and straighforward.

 

I'll repeat the best thing anyone ever said about 5th Ed. self-so-called Shapeshift; "Steve Long et al jumped on the hobbyhorse of 'its all senses' and rode it right over a cliff."

 

The most important rule in any RPG is, it must make sense to the average player. 5th ed. Shapeshift doesn't; it takes long, deep study to figure out why it's done that way. And it doesn't work any better than 4th Ed., even when you DO understand why it's done that way.

 

Of course, 4th ed. needs the costs explained better, but that's minor.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

BEING a different shape, not just seeming to be a different shape.

 

 

 

This is the exact same pettifogging hair-splitting that lead to the incomprehensible nonsense that's in the rule book, and that even Mr. Long had to simplify in the Ult. Metamorph, which covers the field of shape-changing characters.

 

I have NEVER met anyone who didn't hate the rules in the rules book. Every GM and every player I've met face to face used 4th Ed. Shapeshift, because it's simple and straighforward.

 

I'll repeat the best thing anyone ever said about 5th Ed. self-so-called Shapeshift; "Steve Long et al jumped on the hobbyhorse of 'its all senses' and rode it right over a cliff."

 

The most important rule in any RPG is, it must make sense to the average player. 5th ed. Shapeshift doesn't; it takes long, deep study to figure out why it's done that way. And it doesn't work any better than 4th Ed., even when you DO understand why it's done that way.

 

Of course, 4th ed. needs the costs explained better, but that's minor.

 

The problem with 4th ed. Shapeshift is that it doesn't define a defense; a way to see that the shifter for what he really is.

 

How do you build a character who's concept is to always see the truth? If 4th ed. Shapeshift is being used you can't.

 

Simple is fine in some cases but HERO is a game of details, for better or worse, and as such the sensory rule are actually very consistent.

[Outsider]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Detect, Sense, Discriminatory : True (default) Form

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Detect' date=' Sense, Discriminatory : True (default) Form[/quote']

 

Ah, Detect...

 

Detect is just an Unusual Sense that you have to add everything else to manually (like Range, Sense, Targeting, Discriminatory, etc..). It's the basis for creating Normal Sight, Normal Hearing, etc... . Why does Detect work when Spatial Awareness and N-Ray Vision do not? They are both part of the Unusual Group. It can't be because of discriminatory since Normal Sight has that by default.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I have NEVER met anyone who didn't hate the rules in the rules book. Every GM and every player I've met face to face used 4th Ed. Shapeshift, because it's simple and straighforward.

 

I'll repeat the best thing anyone ever said about 5th Ed. self-so-called Shapeshift; "Steve Long et al jumped on the hobbyhorse of 'its all senses' and rode it right over a cliff."

 

 

Although we've never meet ftf, I hope my opinion of this matter will not be invalidated. I like 5th edition Shape Shift. As far as I'm concerned, "changing shape" is one of the many possible SFX of appearing different than you normally are. If you make a Power that causes an actual physical change in the character, then you eliminate other possible SFX, such as illusion, hologram, glamour, etc. Yes, it's much more cumbersome than 4th edition's Shape Shift, but it's also better.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I would like to change Entangle.

 

Specifically, I would like to eliminate the "1 BODY" and "No DEF" and similar Limitations and simply not restrict how you purchase the +d6 and +DEF elements. Much easier to buy a 1d6 10 DEF Entangle. or a 12d6 0 DEF Entangle.

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Ah, Detect...

 

Detect is just an Unusual Sense that you have to add everything else to manually (like Range, Sense, Targeting, Discriminatory, etc..). It's the basis for creating Normal Sight, Normal Hearing, etc... . Why does Detect work when Spatial Awareness and N-Ray Vision do not? They are both part of the Unusual Group. It can't be because of discriminatory since Normal Sight has that by default.

 

Actually you don't have to add everything else to Detect. You can make it part of an existing sense group, at which point it gets all of those things for free. But then it is limited as that sense group as well.

 

As far as why it works when Spatial Awareness and N-Ray vision don't: Spatial Awareness and N-Ray vision are detects too. Detect: Physical Object specifically, which is different than Detect: True Form.

 

Now generally N-Ray vision is bought as part of the Sight group (otherwise it wouldn't be a targeting sense unless that was added seperately), and so assuming that the Shapeshift is bought vs. Sight, it would be fooled.

 

Spatial Awareness would have a chance of not being fooled, as it is frequently left as part of the Unusual Sense Group, so unless the Shapeshift was bought to fool it, it might see the "true form". But it is also frequently bought as part of the Hearing or Mental groups, and so if those groups were covered you'd still see what the shifter wanted you to see.

 

However Detect: True Form would always show the true form of things, and is specifically tailored to see shapeshifted beings.

 

So N-Ray probably wouldn't, Spatial Awareness might, and Detect: True Form does. Of course Detect: True Form doesn't have many other uses, wheras the other two do...

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Although we've never meet ftf' date=' I hope my opinion of this matter will not be invalidated. I like 5th edition Shape Shift. As far as I'm concerned, "changing shape" is one of the many possible SFX of appearing different than you normally are. If you make a Power that causes an actual physical change in the character, then you eliminate other possible SFX, such as illusion, hologram, glamour, etc. Yes, it's much more cumbersome than 4th edition's Shape Shift, but it's also better.[/quote']

 

Exactly! Well put!

 

Oh, and welcome to the 1000 Rep Power club.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Exactly! Well put!

 

Oh, and welcome to the 1000 Rep Power club.

 

Thanks and... wow. Exactly 1000. Neat!

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I do not have any problems with the 5th Ed. Shapeshift per se; I think being able to select which senses will notice the change is nice (I once had a race of 4th Ed. shapeshifting aliens who identified each other by smell, the one sense they couldn't affect).

 

My own personal issue is why have Shapeshift and Images when the construct is so similar? Why not just dump Shapeshift and use Images only vs. Self? My own knee-jerk response is that since Shapeshift actually alters your form, you could use it to say, reach under the couch to retrieve your loose coins that your arm would have otherwise been too large to fit under. But only if you bought Shapeshift vs. touch because the couch isn't going to be fooled by a sight-only Shapeshift. Clearly this is silly, but it seems to me there needs to be a better game-mechanic definition of Shapeshift that is more intuitive, because Shapeshift does things that strictly speaking don't affect any senses, like the couch scenario.

 

My 2 cents (that came from under the couch)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I do not have any problems with the 5th Ed. Shapeshift per se; I think being able to select which senses will notice the change is nice (I once had a race of 4th Ed. shapeshifting aliens who identified each other by smell, the one sense they couldn't affect).

 

My own personal issue is why have Shapeshift and Images when the construct is so similar? Why not just dump Shapeshift and use Images only vs. Self? My own knee-jerk response is that since Shapeshift actually alters your form, you could use it to say, reach under the couch to retrieve your loose coins that your arm would have otherwise been too large to fit under. But only if you bought Shapeshift vs. touch because the couch isn't going to be fooled by a sight-only Shapeshift. Clearly this is silly, but it seems to me there needs to be a better game-mechanic definition of Shapeshift that is more intuitive, because Shapeshift does things that strictly speaking don't affect any senses, like the couch scenario.

 

My 2 cents (that came from under the couch)

 

I don't see Images and Shapeshift (or Invisibility for that matter) as being redundant to each other. Images is NEVER 100% foolproof. If an intended target rolls a natural 3 on their Perception roll they will see through the Image regardless of what senses it affects (if you use critical success/failure rules). Shapeshift, Invisibility* and Darkness are all nearly 100% effective vs. the senses they are designed to affect.

 

*Yes, there are exceptions for HTH combat.

 

Regarding your couch...

I think you are falling into the lower-case/upper-Case trap.

 

The common rpg concept of shapeshifting does imply physical attributes like your example. However, HERO is an effects driven rules-set and technically the Stretching Power is the HERO ability that fits your example better than the Shapeshifting power.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Oh you are right about the PER roll difference between Images and Shapeshift/Invisibility, but I mostly don't see why there shouldn't be some kind of PER roll for the latter two. Invisibility has the "fringe" effect to represent imperfect vanishing, but why not just build it with Images? Why not have some kind of advantage or adder to Images to eliminate the PER roll if you want effect to be perfect? Maybe this is just my own little hang-up that things aren't more streamlined.

 

Consider also that you can't do a Cosmetic Transform vs. yourself or Shapeshift vs. others. But Transform doesn't require you to buy it vs. different senses. The way the two powers are built is completely different even though the effect is essentially the same. Okay, well the story-line effect is the same even if from a gaming standpoint one power is really an attack while the other isn't.

 

As for the couch, I don't think Stretching is what I have in mind at all. (Maybe it is and I just haven't read the power description recently enough). I am not saying I want to reach further than my arm would normally go, but rather under a gap that is too small for my arm to fit under. I want to use Shapeshift to flatten my arm so it will fit. Maybe a better example would be I want my shapeshifter to operate an alien device that requires a hand shaped like a bunch of bananas. The device doesn't care what my hand looks like as long as it is the right shape. Surely that isn't Stretching is it?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Right: instead of an attack doing double stun (before defenses) from surprise, it hits you as if you have half as much CON. I've noticed when I walk into a cupboard door I don't collapse unconscious, but it sure hurts like crazy and I'm incapacitated for a second or two. That smacks to me of easier to be stunned, not being hit with more force or making me more likely to fall unconscious.

 

Then you double stun for stunning purposes only, but apply the 'basic' stun damage . The way you suggest has a pretty profound effect ont he chances of stunning someone, but gives disproportionate advantage to defences. Someone with high defences is likely to be able to resist being stunned by a surprise atatck far more than at present.

 

All sarcasm aside (sorry, couldn't resist), that seems a better way of dealing with your perceived problem.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Thanks and... wow. Exactly 1000. Neat!

 

I'd rep you for getting there, but that would spoil the symetry