Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

[Brother Jim]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

 

Is he committing more crimes that he can be executed for ??

Or is he still being executed for the crimes he committed a while ago and was executed for ??

[death tribble]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

 

Is he committing more crimes that he can be executed for ??

Or is he still being executed for the crimes he committed a while ago and was executed for ??

 

The first point is open to conjecture. He is certainly trying to take over the world and that will cause collateral damage which in turn could lead to the death penalty.

As regards the second point some of the States/cities DAs think just because he survived he must have faked the entire thing or they killed the wrong guy or there is no harm in trying a different method this time.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

 

I think if he's being executed repeatedly for the same offense, he might have an 8th Amendment case. The current SCOTUS would probably rule against him, because they hate every amendment after the first two, but he'd at least have a case. If these are new capital crimes, he probably doesn't have a case. One presumes the State might buy a clue at some point and just give him life without parole.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

 

I think if he's being executed repeatedly for the same offense' date=' he might have an 8th Amendment case. The current SCOTUS would probably rule against him, because they hate every amendment after the first two, but he'd at least have a case. If these are new capital crimes, he probably doesn't have a case. One presumes the State might buy a clue at some point and just give him life without parole.[/quote']No one would successfully execute someone for the same crime repeatedly, it's double jeopardy. He probably committed a new crime each time.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

 

No one would successfully execute someone for the same crime repeatedly' date=' it's double jeopardy. He probably committed a new crime each time.[/quote']

If he committed a new crime each time, his only real argument is that because he can't really be permanently killed, any execution is simply a cruel and unusual punishment. I'd tend to think that after the 3rd through 5th attempts to execute him, the State would figure that out and just throw him in jail and toss the key.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

 

If he committed a new crime each time' date=' his only real argument is that because he can't really be permanently killed, any execution is simply a cruel and unusual punishment. I'd tend to think that after the 3rd through 5th attempts to execute him, the State would figure that out and just throw him in jail and toss the key.[/quote']According to the original post, he had only been executed 3 times, so he still doesn't have a case even by your standards.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

 

According to the original post' date=' he had only been executed 3 times, so he still doesn't have a case even by your standards.[/quote']

 

Well, I suppose the State could claim "this time for sure!" and a lenient court could let them go ahead.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

 

Well' date=' I suppose the State could claim "this time for sure!" and a lenient court could let them go ahead.[/quote']I think they'd call in a specialist to figure out how to do it properly, until then he will be allowed to stew in his cage.

[death tribble]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

 

Blau, You are assuming that he'd only been killed three times. This was by the legal authorities following trial to give a flavour of the villain. If a hero killed him something like in a Bond film, that does not count because he had not been bought to trial. It is based on a Palladium Super who can come back from death and the GESTALT heroes/villains who can only die in a particular way. You would have to assume also that with the gaps between appearances some legal authorities might claim the imposter, illusion or mind control routes. In truth it is him each time but a convincing legal argument against him could get him killed only for him to return some time later. If they could get a specialist in then stewing in the cage is what should happen. It is certainly preferable to being shot, gassed, injected, electrocuted or hanged.

[Cassandra]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

 

The Devil Can't to anything for you, to TO You, if you don't agree to it.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

 

Blau,

 

You are assuming that he'd only been killed three times. This was by the legal authorities following trial to give a flavour of the villain. If a hero killed him something like in a Bond film, that does not count because he had not been bought to trial. It is based on a Palladium Super who can come back from death and the GESTALT heroes/villains who can only die in a particular way.

 

You would have to assume also that with the gaps between appearances some legal authorities might claim the imposter, illusion or mind control routes. In truth it is him each time but a convincing legal argument against himcould get him killed only for him to return some time later. If they could get a specialist in then stewing in the cage is what should happen. It is certainly preferable to being shot, gassed, injected, electrocuted or hanged.

Actually, I'm assuming that the record shows that he's only been executed, by the American legal system, 3 times. Pay no attention to the fact that some of the records could have been expunged. A guy like that has probably been executed dozens, maybe even hundreds of times, not including the times he's gotten himself killed in one stupid stunt or another. Immortality has taught him nothing.

 

There's always a way to kill someone, even if that means separating them from their immortality, you just have to do the extra work.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

 

OTOH, "can only be killed by a Greater God, or a god-slaying mystic artifact" is a perfectly viable condition for your Res-from-death power, and yet most likely the authorities will be completely incapable of fulfilling that condition.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

 

OTOH' date=' "can only be killed by a Greater God, or a god-slaying mystic artifact" is a perfectly viable condition for your Res-from-death power, and yet most likely the authorities will be completely incapable of fulfilling that condition.[/quote'] Like I said earlier: specialist. Presumably this is someone who is either in the know or can find out readily enough.

[pinecone]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

 

No one would successfully execute someone for the same crime repeatedly' date=' it's double jeopardy. He probably committed a new crime each time.[/quote']

 

I don't believe double jeopardy applies to executions, just trials...in the "olden days" survival was respected as the judgment of heaven...but I don't think modern states see it that way....

[Christopher]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

 

I don't believe double jeopardy applies to executions' date=' just trials...in the "olden days" survival was respected as the judgment of heaven...but I don't think modern states see it that way....[/quote']

Double Jeopardy on Wikipedia:

Double jeopardy is a procedural defence that forbids a defendant from being tried again on the same (or similar) charges following a legitimate acquittal or conviction. In common law countries, a defendant may enter a peremptory plea of autrefois acquit or autrefois convict (autrefois means "previously" in French), meaning the defendant has been acquitted or convicted of the same offence.^[1]

If this issue is raised, evidence will be placed before the court, which will normally rule as a preliminary matter whether the plea is substantiated, and if it so finds, the projected trial will be prevented from proceeding. In some countries, the guarantee against being "twice put in jeopardy" is a constitutional right; these include Canada, Mexico and the United States. In other countries, the protection is afforded by statute law.

It does only seem to cover trying someone.

And if he finds it unusual punishment, why doesn't he stay dead/tells them how to keep him dead?

[death tribble]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

He might not know how or why he can die and stay dead. Or in may be in his best interests not to let people know. You would also have the problem of trying to convince a jury that you are the same person who was cremated leaving no remains. They in turn may believe that only of you are righteous can you be ressurected that is if they believe your story in the first place. All of this is however useful.

[Christopher]

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

 

He might not know how or why he can die and stay dead. Or in may be in his best interests not to let people know.

If he knew, would he be legally "required" to tell?

If not, they could not hold it against him that he does not tell them how to kill him permanent. That in turn could mean that repeated executions are unessesary cruelty - after all they could just lock him away.

[death tribble]

Case No 9

 

During his trial The Manhatten Mauler is sensationally revealed to be The Crimson Ghost !

But, I hear you cry, the Crimson Ghost died 20 years ago ! Just so. Only the witnesses to this were police officers and the Ghost now maintains that he surrendered and they gunned him down. He names them, which ties in to the police report, but also states that even though they thought he was dead he could still hear what they said and that they deliberately covered it up. He suffered through the autopsy and then with his body being buried, he got out of his grave some months later which was surprisingly unnoticed.

Can The Crimson Ghost testify in court against his killers ? Assume he can prove that it is him to the satisfaction of the court.

Complication: One of the officers involved was arrested for and convicted of various crimes several years ago by Internal Affairs. Will this prejudice things ?

Added Complication: Another officer involved is now running for high office (Congress, Mayor, the Senate but not the Presidency) and some believe this sudden revelation is suspicious. Does that alter the legal process or not ?

(And if someone wishes to use this as a What Would Your Character Do ? Thread, you have my blessing even though I don't like these sorts of threads.)

[death tribble]

Case No 10.

 

This concerns technology or inventions used by criminal enterprises and the idea that you cannot profit by crime. I believe that the State or Federal authorities would confiscate and possibly sell some things like cars and clothes in the case of drug felons.

Computers that were designed and used by a criminal group or mastermind go on sale to the general public although these have not been cleared by authorities. Do the manufacturers have to clear the sale with authorities and if not would the money from the sales be impounded ?

Complication: The computers were confiscated by the authorities but released to a salvage company who then sell them on. Whether this is an accident in bureaucracy is debateable.

What is the position if the group themselves or the mastermind has authorised the sale from behind bars as part of a plea bargain or 'paying their debt to society' ?

 

Part 2. Fembots go on sale. Anyone can buy them. They even have their own accessories range (and we are talking clothing not anything else). Can a hero, hero group or citizen stop their sale on the grounds that it might be benefiting their inventor financially who created them in order to further his criminal schemes ?

Could their inventor stop the sale in the courts if someone else is selling them and making money at his expense ?

[bubba smith]

I think the inventor is out of luck if the robots were confiscated. his ownership of them ended at the moment they were confiscated

[Christopher]

A really nice Thread. Had to re-read them from teh start. Totally forgot I already posted here and I got some new ideas to soem really old posts:

 

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues Hypothetical no. 5--How would the courts have to redefine "personhood" in order to fit a world where extraterrestrials, gods, elves, robots and androids, vampires, zombies, and giant sentient lizards with thermonuclear halitosis exist?

The Champions Universe rules aside, here is a little Story About Artificial intelligences in are bit more real world scenario:

http://subterraneanpress.com/magazine/fall_2010/fiction_the_lifecycle_of_software_objects_by_ted_chiang

 

Basically the AI is not considered a natural person, but can become a legal person via Incorporation. This Corporation can then enter contracts. To use an excerpt (notes: Digient = AI; Sophonce Digient = a specific process of creating a Digient; Data eath = Globally Unique Internet Acount):

 

 

Now he understands. The digients have been hearing about a Sophonce digient named Voyl. Voyl’s owner—a lawyer named Gerald Hecht—filed papers to create the Voyl Corporation, and Voyl now runs under a separate Data Earth account registered to that corporation. Voyl pays taxes and is able to own property, enter into contracts, file lawsuits and be sued; in many respects he is a legal person, albeit one for whom Hecht technically serves as director.

 

The idea has been around for a while. Artificial-life hobbyists all agree on the impossibility of digients ever getting legal protection as a class, citing dogs as an example: human compassion for dogs is both deep and wide, but the euthanasia of dogs in pet shelters amounts to an ongoing canine holocaust, and if the courts haven’t put a stop to that, they certainly aren’t going to grant protection to entities that lack a heartbeat. Given this, some owners believe the most they can hope for is legal protection on an individual basis: by filing articles of incorporation on a specific digient, an owner can take advantage of a substantial body of case law that establishes rights for nonhuman entities. Hecht is the first one to have actually done it.

They use jsut enough legalese there to make it seem like they know what they say. But my Legal Knowledge is limited.

Basically: Becomming a Natural Person is impossible. Becomming a legal Person is easy (because things other then Natural Person can be Legal Persons).

 

Hypothetical no. 3: Secret Identities How could the law accomodate the concept of a "secret identity", not only with regard to superhumans and costumed adventurers acting in a law enforcement capacity, but also with regard to conducting real estate transactions(buying land for a super lair and then contracting to build it) and such things as marketing and merchandising contracts?

As I understand what others posted so far, it is possible to consider "Superman" a legal Person. That he also is the legal person and natural person "Clark Kent" does not enter into it.

Double jeaopardy would apply, wheter you tried him in the sequence Superman -> Clark Kent, Clark Kent -> Superman, Superman-> Superman or Clark Kent -> Clark Kent is irrelevant.

 

There might be another aspect to consider: The ability to testify in court without revealing ones secret Identity.

It had to be touched on in the Webcomic Lightbringer, now I wonder if that is relevant argument/has proper precedent:

http://lightbringer.comicgenesis.com/d/20071123.html

http://lightbringer.comicgenesis.com/d/20071126.html

 

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

What a fun thread!!!

I LOVE the HERO Forums!!!

Seconded.

 

Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues

Case No 8 The ACLU or similar body take up the case of Dr Fear. Dr Fear is due to be executed by lethal injection.

Except that he was electrocuted and pronounced dead 30 years ago. He was also shot by firing squad right after Gary Gilmore. And he was hanged in the 50s.

There is also a record of him being sent to the gas chamber about 15 years ago. Afterwards in at least one case he was given an autopsy and his body cremated.

Well the bad Dr is sick and tired of being executed and is saying that the constant executions are cruel and unusual punishments. Does he have a case to stop being put to death even if he survives the death penalty for crimes he has previously committed and suffered the death penalty for ?

Part of the idea is from GESTALT where some paranornals can only be killed under particular circumstances.

 

Case No 9

 

During his trial The Manhatten Mauler is sensationally revealed to be The Crimson Ghost !

But, I hear you cry, the Crimson Ghost died 20 years ago ! Just so. Only the witnesses to this were police officers and the Ghost now maintains that he surrendered and they gunned him down. He names them, which ties in to the police report, but also states that even though they thought he was dead he could still hear what they said and that they deliberately covered it up. He suffered through the autopsy and then with his body being buried, he got out of his grave some months later which was surprisingly unnoticed.

Can The Crimson Ghost testify in court against his killers ? Assume he can prove that it is him to the satisfaction of the court.

Complication: One of the officers involved was arrested for and convicted of various crimes several years ago by Internal Affairs. Will this prejudice things ?

Added Complication: Another officer involved is now running for high office (Congress, Mayor, the Senate but not the Presidency) and some believe this sudden revelation is suspicious. Does that alter the legal process or not ?

(And if someone wishes to use this as a What Would Your Character Do ? Thread, you have my blessing even though I don't like these sorts of threads.)

The first question is wheter "being executed, but then reviving" does qualify you for "serving the death penalty". While re-reading I noticed someone writing (Clonus I think): "What defines death is the irreversibiltiy".

Now what you have here are two characters where the part of making death "stick" is the problem. As such they never died to begin with, because people have not figured out how to make it "irreversible".

 

That means, Case 8:

He has not served any Death Penalties so far. After all he got up after every atempt, so they can indeed keep trying to execute him. In most cases they would jsut wise up and make it a "Life sentence without Parole". If nothing else, it is cheaper then trying to kill him over and over (and make sure they get him when he resurrects).

He might actually sue them to lower it accordingly, as it could be considered a form of Torture to "keep trying". Most forms of killing are nowhere near as "quick and painless" as they are depicted. The lethal injection in particular is a extremely long, cruel and painfull way of killing one (the first injection is to paralyse you, so nobody notices your minute long suffucation). Even hanging can be a very long process, if it is not done right (i.e. not snapping the neck, but slowly suffucating). I would consider repeatedly bringing someone to near-death a form of torture. It's jsut that they have not figure out how to go beyond near death with him.

 

Case 9:

He never was dead, so he could propably testify in a Case of atempted Murder on him.

Complciation one: (the Convicted officer): It could certainly be used to bring the Character of that Person into doubt, if the defense goes that way (it was noted earlier that the Defense has to "open that box of pandora").

Complciation two boils down too: Is the defense in a atempted murder case allowed to question the Character/reliability of the main witness/victim, by providing a motivation for intentional false accusation?

 

Case No 10.

 

This concerns technology or inventions used by criminal enterprises and the idea that you cannot profit by crime. I believe that the State or Federal authorities would confiscate and possibly sell some things like cars and clothes in the case of drug felons.

Computers that were designed and used by a criminal group or mastermind go on sale to the general public although these have not been cleared by authorities. Do the manufacturers have to clear the sale with authorities and if not would the money from the sales be impounded ?

Complication: The computers were confiscated by the authorities but released to a salvage company who then sell them on. Whether this is an accident in bureaucracy is debateable.

What is the position if the group themselves or the mastermind has authorised the sale from behind bars as part of a plea bargain or 'paying their debt to society' ?

 

Part 2. Fembots go on sale. Anyone can buy them. They even have their own accessories range (and we are talking clothing not anything else). Can a hero, hero group or citizen stop their sale on the grounds that it might be benefiting their inventor financially who created them in order to further his criminal schemes ?

Could their inventor stop the sale in the courts if someone else is selling them and making money at his expense ?

What does the Manufacturer has to do with this?
As I understand it the Computers in question were legally sold to the Criminals.

Then legally Confiscated by the Police.

Then legally put for sale.

The Manufacturer is only the first is a series of previous owners and previous owners have no right to the item (they sold that righ together with the item).

 

Part 2:

Could you sue Pinguin to not have a Restaurant (a legal business), because he sometimes uses/used money from that restaurant to finance Criminal activity? Could you prevent someone from taking a job because "he might" buy a set of buglary tools with the money?

If the business is legal, the business is legal. What you do, did or might do with the rightfull gains from it does not factor into it (or at least I think it doesn't). They propably have to proove that you almost exclusively financed that item with illegal money, before they can onfiscate it. As money is fungible, that might be hard to proove.

 

Part 2.2:

There could be a case of copyright infringement/theft of intellectual property here. If whoever builds them now did not aquire the plans to do so on a legal way from Dr. Mad Science (stole it, reverse engienered it). Being a convicted felon does not invalidate your intelectual property and general property rights. But the copyright/IP area is difficult terrain.

If you meant "if Dr. Mad Science financed the Fembot development with illegally aquired money, does he retain rights to the plans/copyright or can those be confiscated legally like a car"? That is a interesting question. With any development work/end product there are two parts to consider: Raw materials and work investment. The Raw Materials might be aquired illegally, but that would not invalidate the fact that he did the work.

Produced units could certainly be confiscated and sold. The plans however are a tricky mater.

 

P.S.: I have a case too, a possible Origin that I would like to have checked back. So I claim Case 11 in advance.

[Christopher]

Case 11-1:

A Character had an radiation accident wich gave him quickly increasing intelligence, but quickly deterioating Muscles (think ALS). So he joined a Cybernetics Lab with the Intent of building himself a Cyborg Body, transplanting his brain and then just take the body. He succeeds and now is a human brain in a Cyborg body.

Now he doesn't wants to give the body back under the following premise:

Returning his brain to his former body would transform him from a healthy person into a severely disabeled Person with a rather certain propabiliy of death, wich would fall under "Severe and Unusual Punishment" for a Felony like "theft & break of contract".

 

Facts to consider:

(1): He undoubtedly broke his contract with the laboratory while doing this; they had clauses against theft.

(2): No other persons where involved. They had some dohickey to "remove and implant the brain" automatically (unsupervised usage note advised!). Or maybe had a familiy member to it. In any case he propably violated soem security rules doing it, but that was his risk

(3): The lab is interested in getting thier cyborg body parts back. The process for the neural interface he used is not compatible with other people (it works on his improved brain only) so there is nothing that would interest them in a settlement or any plan that takes a long time.

(4): He has no previous convictions.

(5): While the body might be on a superhuman level, he had installed a power limiter that can be securely set for the time of a Prison Sentence. So any normal Prision will be able to contain him.

(6): His normal body is kept on life support in case an important part is ordered to return.

(7): The only part of his body transplanted is his brain.

(8): Downgrading to a lesser body is not an option. Though he could remove limbs without ill effect, that would again make him an effective amputee till he can craft a replacement (same argument as above). For him it is all or nothing, for the lab it is all or nothing.

 

Case 11-2:

The same, except for 6: His normal body died, but it is possible to keep his brain alive outside a body. Just that incase of a Brain in a helpless body, he is a brain without body then.

[bubba smith]

regarding case11-1

self preservation could justify USING the bionic system but he would need to reimburse his employer

[death tribble]

That means, Case 8:

He has not served any Death Penalties so far. After all he got up after every atempt, so they can indeed keep trying to execute him. In most cases they would jsut wise up and make it a "Life sentence without Parole". If nothing else, it is cheaper then trying to kill him over and over (and make sure they get him when he resurrects).

He might actually sue them to lower it accordingly, as it could be considered a form of Torture to "keep trying". Most forms of killing are nowhere near as "quick and painless" as they are depicted. The lethal injection in particular is a extremely long, cruel and painfull way of killing one (the first injection is to paralyse you, so nobody notices your minute long suffucation). Even hanging can be a very long process, if it is not done right (i.e. not snapping the neck, but slowly suffucating). I would consider repeatedly bringing someone to near-death a form of torture. It's jsut that they have not figure out how to go beyond near death with him.

 

Case 9:

He never was dead, so he could propably testify in a Case of atempted Murder on him.

Complciation one: (the Convicted officer): It could certainly be used to bring the Character of that Person into doubt, if the defense goes that way (it was noted earlier that the Defense has to "open that box of pandora").

Complciation two boils down too: Is the defense in a atempted murder case allowed to question the Character/reliability of the main witness/victim, by providing a motivation for intentional false accusation?

You have made an error in case 8 in assuming he gets up after every attempt. I believe I covered this before.

The death penalty is carried out, it is confirmed that he is dead and then he is buried or cremated. Then he comes back sometimes years later. You are also crossing states and jurisdictions, local and state police departments, Federal agencies etc so that the same people may not be involved all the time increasing an air of disbelief as well as upsetting some people's religious beliefs i.e. only the good and righteous can come back from ther dead.

Otherwise in stating that the death can be long, slow and awful your point is well made.

 

Case 9. Actually he was dead to all intents and purposes but attempted murder is maybe one way of running that. Thanks, that did not occur to me.

Nice pick ups on the complications. Worth noting.

 

As regards case numbering, when I ressurected the thread I used the numbering as one way of keeping an eye on what ones I was talking about for my own benefit rather than rely on what a poster might put. If this helps you and others please be my guest.

[death tribble]

Case 11-1:

A Character had an radiation accident wich gave him quickly increasing intelligence, but quickly deterioating Muscles (think ALS). So he joined a Cybernetics Lab with the Intent of building himself a Cyborg Body, transplanting his brain and then just take the body. He succeeds and now is a human brain in a Cyborg body.

Now he doesn't wants to give the body back under the following premise:

Returning his brain to his former body would transform him from a healthy person into a severely disabeled Person with a rather certain propabiliy of death, wich would fall under "Severe and Unusual Punishment" for a Felony like "theft & break of contract".

 

Facts to consider:

(1): He undoubtedly broke his contract with the laboratory while doing this; they had clauses against theft.

(2): No other persons where involved. They had some dohickey to "remove and implant the brain" automatically (unsupervised usage note advised!). Or maybe had a familiy member to it. In any case he propably violated soem security rules doing it, but that was his risk

(3): The lab is interested in getting thier cyborg body parts back. The process for the neural interface he used is not compatible with other people (it works on his improved brain only) so there is nothing that would interest them in a settlement or any plan that takes a long time.

(4): He has no previous convictions.

(5): While the body might be on a superhuman level, he had installed a power limiter that can be securely set for the time of a Prison Sentence. So any normal Prision will be able to contain him.

(6): His normal body is kept on life support in case an important part is ordered to return.

(7): The only part of his body transplanted is his brain.

(8): Downgrading to a lesser body is not an option. Though he could remove limbs without ill effect, that would again make him an effective amputee till he can craft a replacement (same argument as above). For him it is all or nothing, for the lab it is all or nothing.

 

Case 11-2:

The same, except for 6: His normal body died, but it is possible to keep his brain alive outside a body. Just that incase of a Brain in a helpless body, he is a brain without body then.

This one might go all the way to the Supreme Court as switching back he might die. There are also implications when this is done by a criminal to an innocent so again I can see this one going to the top court.

There might be an option for imprisonment which suits neither party but is humane.