Yansuf Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues There is no temporal paradox' date=' any entity "from the future" coming "back to the past" to create consequences in that "past" would by definition be an extra-dimensional invading entity. The resemblance of any such entity to any "current" entity is merely coincidental. Time is not linear, but dimensional. Entities are defined by their placement along a space/time continuum, by asserting that the entity committing the crime arrived from a different space/time you have conclusively demonstrated the uniqueness and separateness of said entity from any "present" entity.[/quote'] Very Good. Of course it would still be in litigation for years, but I thnk you might have the final judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues Case No 6 This concerns Takofanes. He starts a walk to the sea (Ocean) with a large force of undead at his command. After his defeat the dead are put back to their state. Except there is (at least) one who does not want to be. There is no record of their death but they test as dead. (basing this on Return of the Living Dead 3 with the zombie girl there). As they have memory and can now do things that they could in life, they wish to be recorded as a paranormal. Do they have a case under the law ? Case no 7 The villain the Animator brings to life comic book hero/villains. It now comes to light that he is templating the idea over a normal person who is then to all intents and purposes the comic book character. The Animator has no way (and no wish either) to restore the person to normal. A laboratory claims that they can reverse the process. As most of the characters the Animator produces are villains the laboratory applies to have them transferred from prison to their facility. The villains in question object saying it is a violation of their rights and that they are happy as they are. Assuming that the laboratory is sincere and it is not a front for someone building up an army of villains or somone like DEMON collecting souls, do the villains have a right to their new identity even though they are comic book characters and thus the property of the comic companies ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues Case No 6 This concerns Takofanes. He starts a walk to the sea (Ocean) with a large force of undead at his command. After his defeat the dead are put back to their state. Except there is (at least) one who does not want to be. There is no record of their death but they test as dead. (basing this on Return of the Living Dead 3 with the zombie girl there). As they have memory and can now do things that they could in life, they wish to be recorded as a paranormal. Do they have a case under the law ? Not much of one. Their attorneys will argue that the definition of "artificial intelligence" covers them, but their petition is unlikely to be granted. Case no 7 The villain the Animator brings to life comic book hero/villains. It now comes to light that he is templating the idea over a normal person who is then to all intents and purposes the comic book character. The Animator has no way (and no wish either) to restore the person to normal. A laboratory claims that they can reverse the process. As most of the characters the Animator produces are villains the laboratory applies to have them transferred from prison to their facility. The villains in question object saying it is a violation of their rights and that they are happy as they are. . Mind controlled people always say they are happy as they are. Unless the villains can show cause to think that their personalities have not been altered by their transformation (that they had criminal tendencies before being transformed, for example or that they were acting on old grudges now that they had the power...), they are legally non compos mentis and their objections to being cured will be over-ruled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues Case no 7 The villain the Animator brings to life comic book hero/villains. It now comes to light that he is templating the idea over a normal person who is then to all intents and purposes the comic book character. The Animator has no way (and no wish either) to restore the person to normal. A laboratory claims that they can reverse the process. As most of the characters the Animator produces are villains the laboratory applies to have them transferred from prison to their facility. The villains in question object saying it is a violation of their rights and that they are happy as they are. Assuming that the laboratory is sincere and it is not a front for someone building up an army of villains or somone like DEMON collecting souls, do the villains have a right to theior new identity even though they are comic book characters and thus the property of the comic companies ? Just to get this right: He "summons" Comicbook characters, by transforming normals into them? If that is the chase, the court would have to asume that this transforamtion was against the intent of the normal person that is now a villain. It would be only natural for the summoned villain to claim he is the same person, but considering the great changes in his behavior (normal person to villain; maybe loyality to Animator) this won't really fly in courts. So I guess they would opt the return everyone affected. Since the reversion also disables thier powers, they would perhaps even do that jsut to "disarm" them. I think in a world of superhumans, law could include the option option of Forcefull reversion of Radiation Accidents. After that the Reverted would propably recieve therapy. The "Reverted" may then of course form a Self-help Group and apply to stop these forcefull Reversions. But considering that they all where evil/criminal offenders before reversion I doubt it will work so easily. Edit: Basically what Clonus said, but less well Formulated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues Case No 6 This concerns Takofanes. He starts a walk to the sea (Ocean) with a large force of undead at his command. After his defeat the dead are put back to their state. Except there is (at least) one who does not want to be. There is no record of their death but they test as dead. (basing this on Return of the Living Dead 3 with the zombie girl there). As they have memory and can now do things that they could in life, they wish to be recorded as a paranormal. Do they have a case under the law ? Case no 7 The villain the Animator brings to life comic book hero/villains. It now comes to light that he is templating the idea over a normal person who is then to all intents and purposes the comic book character. The Animator has no way (and no wish either) to restore the person to normal. A laboratory claims that they can reverse the process. As most of the characters the Animator produces are villains the laboratory applies to have them transferred from prison to their facility. The villains in question object saying it is a violation of their rights and that they are happy as they are. Assuming that the laboratory is sincere and it is not a front for someone building up an army of villains or somone like DEMON collecting souls, do the villains have a right to theior new identity even though they are comic book characters and thus the property of the comic companies ? 6) Under the CU precedent mentioned, on the surface of it, LDG has no civil rights. However, a lot depends on how the term "undead" is defined. If the courts use a narrower definition of the term, it could be argued LDG doesn't fit the criteria for "undead". Outside the CU, the courts would probably develop a sapience/volition standard--can they distinguish between right and wrong? Can they conform their behavior to the law? Do they feel pain and other emotions? Do they have "free will"? Etc. Of course, if the LDG was technically "infectious", then measures to quarantine or detain her might be justified on the basis of protecting the public from a serious health threat. 7) This seems like a 2-part question. The first question is whether the people in question can be transferred to the lab and undergo the reversal procedure against their will. Well, I think the lab could make the argument that the villains, having been mentally altered, are currently incompetent to make such decisions, and that a guardian ad litem should be appointed to represent their interests and help make the decision. They'd have to convince a judge of that though, and that could be a tall order. The villains can raise due process arguments, equal protection arguments, etc. The second question is whether the villains have the "rights" to their name, image and public identities, when all of that is technically the IP of the comic book company. Well, let's put it this way: if you look like Col. Sanders, KFC can't make you change your appearance, but they can prevent you from publicly representing yourself as such, or from endorsing a rival fried chicken chain (or any poultry products, for that matter). The villains would probably be prevented from calling themselves the same names as the comic book company's characters, might face infringement claims over their costume designs, and definitely could not represent themselves as those named characters in any way for personal benefit. You have a right to the way your face looks, even if you're a dead ringer for Angelina Jolie. You just can't claim to be her or derive any material benefit based on deceiving the public into thinking you're her. So they could keep their faces, and use their powers, they just couldn't keep the names or (maybe) their costume designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues 6)nder the CU precedent mentioned, on the surface of it, LDG has no civil rights. However, a lot depends on how the term "undead" is defined. If the courts use a narrower definition of the term, it could be argued LDG doesn't fit the criteria for "undead". They don't. In fact they don't define "undead" at all. The law in question is one that provides civil rights to androids, aliens and artificial intelligences, but not to any nonhuman that doesn't have a name starting with "a". 7) This seems like a 2-part question. The first question is whether the people in question can be transferred to the lab and undergo the reversal procedure against their will. Well, I think the lab could make the argument that the villains, having been mentally altered, are currently incompetent to make such decisions, and that a guardian ad litem should be appointed to represent their interests and help make the decision. They'd have to convince a judge of that though, and that could be a tall order. The villains can raise due process arguments, equal protection arguments, etc. I'm pretty confident that victims of mass mind control would not win the fight to not have their previous mind restored. Of course they should probably revert to normal anyway. That's what generally happens with both the source material and the game mechanics. It would be interesting though if just their minds were reverted. Imagine a whole team of superheroes, each of which has the powers and identity of a fictional supervillain... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues For case No 7, can we sidestep the Mind Control aspect ? That is not part of the question. What the Animator appeared to do was summon a comic book creation. It turned out later there were quite a few missing person cases related to what he was doing. To all intents and purposes the comic book character is a different person. Different blood types, finger prints, DNA, build, the works. Also no memory of previous or past life even to telepathy or mind control. In light of that how do the answers change ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues They don't. In fact they don't define "undead" at all. The law in question is one that provides civil rights to androids' date=' aliens and artificial intelligences, but not to any nonhuman that doesn't have a name starting with "a".[/quote'] Then they will propably aim for being named "animated dead". There was one Southpark episode, where the Chef died and got back as ghost. When called a ghost, he said: "We prefer to be called Nekro-Americans." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues Related to Case 6. If someone says that they can kill the LDG but she says 'Oh no you don't !' I'm alive !' are the former prevented from effectively killing her ? If she demonstrates memory, speech etc and is not doing anything anti social like eating brains do the former have a case for trying to prove 'proof of death' ? And if she argues that she is not undead but her superpowers were brought on by Takofanes and thus resemble undeath is she then counted as living or dead ? Assume no way of proving that it is a superpower or proving that she is dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues For case No 7' date=' can we sidestep the Mind Control aspect ?[/quote'] You mean by having a lawyer argue that what the Animator really did was kill the bystanders to create new people? No. An essential element of death is irreversibility Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues You mean by having a lawyer argue that what the Animator really did was kill the bystanders to create new people? No. An essential element of death is irreversibility I don't know if he gets a vote, but I'm sure the Animator doesn't want to stand trial for mass murder.... Lucius Alexander The palindromedary wouldn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues Incidentally the way that law granting rights to aliens and artificials is apparently written means that Gamma World animal mutants who gained human intelligence are S.O.L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues You mean by having a lawyer argue that what the Animator really did was kill the bystanders to create new people? No. An essential element of death is irreversibility You are missing the point. There is no way to prove Mind Control. Or to prove who was whom previously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues You are missing the point. There is no way to prove Mind Control. Or to prove who was whom previously. Wait, are you saying it's impossible to figure out who a "villain" was prior to being transformed? If you can't prove mind control, then you'd have to get medical testimony that the victims aren't competent to make their own decisions and need a guardian ad litem assigned to them. If not, then if the victims don't want to be changed back, they probably can't be changed back, because absent destructive anti-social behavior, there's no compelling reason to do so. However, if there's evidence that the Animator did in fact kidnap these people, they can still face all kinds of serious criminal charges for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues You are missing the point. There is no way to prove Mind Control. Or to prove who was whom previously. I didn't say Mind Control. I said mind control. Technically it would be a Transform. And if they can't prove that, they obviously can't reverse it. WIf you can't prove mind control' date=' then you'd have to get medical testimony that the victims aren't competent to make their own decisions and need a guardian ad litem assigned to them. If not, then if the victims don't want to be changed back, they probably can't be changed back, because absent destructive anti-social behavior, there's no compelling reason to do so. [/quote'] They've been transformed into comic book supervillains. Destructive anti-social behavior comes with the package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues Just to be clear on the Animator. He would be seen reading a comic (sometimes while a hero was in hot pursuit of him) and he would then produce a villain who could be counted to delay the hero for a bit while the Animator made his get away. What was missed and no-one caught on to was the disappearance of people at the same time. Now whether the Animator knew that he was doing and making people vanish at the same time is open to conjecture. He is kept in suspended animation incapable of dreaming just in case. His power had grown to the level of producing villains from movies from memory. The theory is that people are either being transformed or switched out like Rick Jones/Captain Marvel or like Banner/Hulk with no switch backs. Or the new identity having any knowledge of the old. Trouble is it has never been caught on camera or otherwise proved. The Animator has been charged and found guilty of any and all crimes his creations have committed just for the record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues Unless that agency can somehow proof that these villains where in fact normal people, there is nothing to be done. A theory might be fine but unless there is soem emperical evidence it won't be enough to force the villains to undergo an untested procedure that might or might not have the effect of placing two beings in their right universe/reversign the switch. Some ways to bring the proof: Find out where the people went and find them there. Unless the villains die during the reversion (they end up in their world), there is little to be said against sending them back to get a law abiding citizen in return. Convince a (reformed) Villain formed via the animator to undergo the procedure voluntarily. If it works, there is a strong argument that the theory is correct. Anybody has an idea how the CU handles "Alternate Universe Copies"? Would they be sent back to their universe (asuming there is a legal system ready to process them). Because this could be very similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midas Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues 7) This seems like a 2-part question. The first question is whether the people in question can be transferred to the lab and undergo the reversal procedure against their will. The second question is whether the villains have the "rights" to their name, image and public identities, when all of that is technically the IP of the comic book company...So they could keep their faces, and use their powers, they just couldn't keep the names or (maybe) their costume designs. This raises a rather amusing question. Not being too familiar with published supervllains, let us presume that The Animator "brought over" Spiderman. Spidey is wanted by the police in Marvel New York (unless things have changed drastically since I stopped following Drivelverse), so he is technically a supervillain. Spidey hasn't committed any crimes in Champions Universe, and thus doesn't fall under the forced reversion policy. But he refuses to change his costume. Now, his crime (or tort) is copyright infringement. Is he now a villain in CU, and subject to reversal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues Unless that agency can somehow proof that these villains where in fact normal people' date=' there is nothing to be done. [/quote'] Unless they understand the process well enough to produce expert testimony as to what happened, then they have no way to reverse it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues This raises a rather amusing question. Not being too familiar with published supervllains' date=' let us presume that The Animator "brought over" Spiderman. Spidey is wanted by the police in Marvel New York (unless things have changed drastically since I stopped following Drivelverse), so he is technically a supervillain. Spidey hasn't committed any crimes in Champions Universe, and thus doesn't fall under the forced reversion policy. But he refuses to change his costume. Now, his crime (or tort) is copyright infringement. Is he now a villain in CU, and subject to reversal?[/quote'] People wear Spider-Man costumes all the time. They sell them in stores. He only has a problem if he tries to get a slice of the merchandising revenue for himself. (And they'd probably make a contract with him anyway.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues This raises a rather amusing question. Not being too familiar with published supervllains' date=' let us presume that The Animator "brought over" Spiderman. Spidey is wanted by the police in Marvel New York (unless things have changed drastically since I stopped following Drivelverse), so he is technically a supervillain. Spidey hasn't committed any crimes in Champions Universe, and thus doesn't fall under the forced reversion policy. But he refuses to change his costume. Now, his crime (or tort) is copyright infringement. Is he now a villain in CU, and subject to reversal?[/quote'] I somehow doubt that Copyright infringement and "Building a Deathray to extort the world" (or Bankrobery, Midn Controll, etc.) are anywhere on the same level. Unless they understand the process well enough to produce expert testimony as to what happened' date=' then they have no way to reverse it.[/quote'] "Yes Sir Judge, I am 100% certain it isi so." "But can you proof it?" "No Sir, but I am 100% certain it won't kill him and if, we at least get a normal citizen back." Now add in one expert for the other side who says that this is not goign to work and highly dangerous for the prosecuted. And pointing out that this would fall under illiegal medical experiment. If the proof isn't on the "here is my Extradimensional View Screen - set to Dimensio M.A.R.V.E.L. - and there we have the citicen that vanished at the same time this villain apperaed"-level, there aren't good chances a Judge will risk a persons life on a wild theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues As to the point Midas makes, the Animator usually produced villains some of whom adapted very well to the change of circumstance. One was Juggernaut and another was Dr Doom. The latter on finding no Reed Richards etc managed to start again and work his way up to be the head of state of Latvia. Latveria did not exist but beggers can't be choosers. This has made the Russians both very upset and nervous. Doom is thus back as a head of state and has diplomatic immunity. One of the reasons the Animator did not bring heroes through is they might turn around and arrest him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midas Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues People wear Spider-Man costumes all the time. They sell them in stores. He only has a problem if he tries to get a slice of the merchandising revenue for himself. (And they'd probably make a contract with him anyway.) I somehow doubt that Copyright infringement and "Building a Deathray to extort the world" (or Bankrobery' date=' Midn Controll, etc.) are anywhere on the same level.[/quote'] Spidey probably wasn't a good choice but he was all I could think of to prove my point. (My two "honeys" back in the day were Gwen Stacey and Jean Grey. It's been a *long* time since I cared what happened in Marveldom). What I was going for was a "villain" that wasn't a criminal in the current jurisdiction. Doom works better, I guess. Good point about the contracts, I don't know that Marvel would want to contract Doom. The first time he did something "embarrassing" would Marvel's contract force them to share the embarrassment? Re copyright infringement vs Death Ray. I was being digital, not analog. ie Is the character a criminal? yes/no, not "sort of." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues Case No 8 The ACLU or similar body take up the case of Dr Fear. Dr Fear is due to be executed by lethal injection. Except that he was electrocuted and pronounced dead 30 years ago. He was also shot by firing squad right after Gary Gilmore. And he was hanged in the 50s. There is also a record of him being sent to the gas chamber about 15 years ago. Afterwards in at least one case he was given an autopsy and his body cremated. Well the bad Dr is sick and tired of being executed and is saying that the constant executions are cruel and unusual punishments. Does he have a case to stop being put to death even if he survives the death penalty for crimes he has previously committed and suffered the death penalty for ? Part of the idea is from GESTALT where some paranornals can only be killed under particular circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blau Stern Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Re: Calling all lawyers--Supers and unique legal issues I don't think Dr. Fear would have a case, it's like a guys suing the state because they keep throwing him in jail for his actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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