Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

On the whole' date=' I like the Comic Book feel they give to combats, the chance of suddenly turning the course of combat completely, either for or against the protagonists. I do agree that they need to be used with caution. A Wave Motion Gun / Nova Blast / Spark 8 / whatever maxed out special attack used after a couple turns or so of hard fighting when all seems lost is exciting and great fun; used on Phase 12 at the start of combat it can be an anticlimactic buzz kill. I've mainly dealt with this by asking players who have all out signature attacks not to use them save in emergencies, to collaborate with me story teller to story teller. If you prefer a more mechanics based approach, a -1 "Emergencies Only" limit works fine, with the GM deciding what constitutes an emergency (based off of No Conscious Control). Requires an EGO Roll also works well here, as the player knows he's gambling when he chooses to use the maneuver, and the GM can add a bonus or penalty to the EGO roll depending on circumstances.[/quote']

Exactly. I'm not too worried about the player in question abusing the power. But if he's going to self-limit its use anyway, I may as well give him a discount for it.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

After review, I'd go with Oddhat's method; add another Slot to the Multipower, then add more dice outside the Multipower. If the character can do a 'normal-strength' explosion blast all the time, that build gives him the flexibility to do so; otherwise, Limit the Slot so that it must be used with the outside additional dice.

 

Nanite Multipower

(1) Quick Blast

(2) Big Blast

(3) Explosion Blast

 

Nova Blast (+dice to Explosion Blast)

 

I also like the "Only In Emergencies" -1 over Charges.

 

Good discussion!

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

[Additional thought]

 

Although I am interested in seeing the original build with +dice outside the Multipower and the Explosion as a Single-Power Naked Advantage properly written up and costed, as it is one of the most complex Hero math situations I've run across...

 

[/thought]

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

Cost for calculating a Single-Power Naked Advantage is different than one that can apply to any Power - see 5ER' date=' page 245.[/quote']

OK, now I'm even more confused. The example on p245 seems simple enough, but how does it work with Powers in a Framework? Adding the +7d6 and Explosion to the original power would make the Real Cost 67 outside the MP; the original blast would cost 27 if it were outside the MP. So the Nova Burst costs 40 Real, regardless of how many additional Lims I put on it? Or do I use the costs inside the MP (if it fit in the MP, which it doesn't...)? Then the Adv only add 4 points to the cost of the power.

 

Mongo's head hurt reeeeal bad.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

SCUBA's head hurt too... and I'm pretty good with math...

 

The way I read 5ER page 245, you:

 

1. Calculate the Big Blast slot normally.

2. Calculate the extra dice outside the Multipower normally.

3. Re-calculate the Big Blast slot with the Explosion Advantage. [WARNING: This breaks the point limit on the Multipower!!! Maybe that's why the general rule on page 245 about not purchasing a naked Power Advantage adding to a slot?]

4. Re-calculate the extra dice with the Explosion Advantage.

5. Subtract the Real Cost of 1 and 2 from 3 and 4. This is now the base cost of the Explosion naked Power Advantage.

6. Apply any separate Limitations.

 

I think. Can someone with Hero Designer punch this in? Please??

[Comic]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

Objective: 18 DC Explosion as a slot in a 56 AP Multipower for a flying energy projector.

 

Base power: 2d6+1 EHKA Explosion (-1 Usable Only with Move Through), 52 AP, costs 5 END, real cost 2 pts.

Enhancement: 6 CSL with Multipower, convertable to 2 DCs of Explosion, for a total 3d6 EHKA base, real cost 18 pts. (Side Benefit: +6 CSLs with other attacks in MP)

Adjustment: STR + Movement equal to 13.5 DCs (to defray +1/2 Explosion advantage), EG 18 STR & 30" Flight

Effectively 135 AP's worth of power in an attack, attacker takes full or half damage, END cost 13

 

Is it unbalancing to introduce a 6d6 KA Explosion?

 

Enh.

 

Any 135 pt power is liable to do that.

 

This one, at least, represents the ultimate channeling of all the hero's skill, speed, strength and power into an attack that might still plink, so the risk is high, in the nature of an ultimate attack.

 

It requires the hero to be extremely skillful, fit, fast and powerful, too, as qualifications.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

RE: Ranged on the Naked Advantage.

 

Unless you plan on applying the NA from range it's not needed. Or plan on using it as a UBO Power you can give to someone from range.

 

Naked Advantages don't need to emulate the Advantages on the power they are applying themselves too. You apply the NA before firing the Power, the Power then has it's Advantages and the Naked Advantages you applied to it.

[casualplayer]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

Just as an aside, the power itself is self-limiting by the proximity of teammates or bystanders. If the player cooks this off in a building, he's probably going to bring the roof down on his head.

 

A long-running character in my old game had something similar and he nearly killed the MA when Pulse blew up and Ronin was standing too close.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

Just as an aside, the power itself is self-limiting by the proximity of teammates or bystanders. If the player cooks this off in a building, he's probably going to bring the roof down on his head.

 

A long-running character in my old game had something similar and he nearly killed the MA when Pulse blew up and Ronin was standing too close.

 

When I assess the potential impact of powers, I tend to assume rational players. I do appreciate that this is not always a warranted assumption

[Talon]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

rational players

 

Can you use these two words together in English?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

Can you use these two words together in English?

 

I think so. It is called an oxymoron, appropriately...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

I like the way you built it, except for the Linked part, which was already noted. Even if you decide that the Linked is OK, it should only be -1/4 since you're linking a larger power to a smaller one.

 

I don't like the -1 "Only in Emergencies" limitation. It seems like too much of a price break. I used to allow a -1/4 "Last Resort" limitation, but I hardly ever do that any more. If a power is used only rarely, then it should have limitations to reflect that - a reason why the power is used rarely. Side Effects, Greatly increased END cost, 0 DCV, Extra Time, or No Range Explosion without Personal Immunity are all pretty good reasons why you wouldn't want to use the power that often. You can even tack on 1 Charge or something like that.

 

However, I also occasionally allow slots in Multipowers to exceed the active points of the Reserve, as long as they have Limitations that bring the Real cost down to the Real Cost of the Reserve. For example:

 

60 Reserve

6u Regular Electric Blast - 12d6 EB - general purpose attack

6u EMP Blast - 12d6 NND (120 Active), Only vs. characters with electronic brains (-1) (60 Real)

6u Mega Zap - 18d6 EB, Armor Piercing, Explosion, (180 Active), No Range, Concentration 0 DCV, 3x END (60 Real)

[SteveZilla]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

A Wave Motion Gun / Nova Blast / Spark 8 / whatever maxed out special attack used after a couple turns or so of hard fighting when all seems lost is fun; used on Phase 12 at the start of combat it can be an anticlimactic buzz kill.

 

You forgot "Stellar Converter"

 

And I agree that it can be a problem if the character "shoots his wad" early.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

The player (who is new to Hero' date=' but learning) wants to be able to add a Nova Blast, an 18d6 Explosion that's heavily limited so he can only do it under the most dire circumstances, certainly no more than once per session. The problem, of course, is that totally breaks the MP reserve.[/quote']

 

You cannot Link a power to an identical power and have it add together in the way that "+7d6" implies (5er, p310, 2nd paragraph under "Extra Powers For A Slot). If it were a different power it could be (5er, p310). But you especially can't Link a Naked Advantage to the power it is bought for. I mean, c'mon now.

 

Personally, I think it is a "cleaner" build to make the Nova Blast it's own slot (as much will fit), and just have the rest outside that adds to it. Fully book legal, and uses no (AFAIK) "special case/GM's Option" rules to do so.

 

56 Nanite Weaponry: Multipower, 56-point reserve

6u 1) Quick Blast: Energy Blast 9d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (56 Active Points). 2 END

3u 2) Big Blast: Energy Blast 11d6 (55 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, Delayed Phase, -3/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4). 5 END

1u 3) Nova Blast: Energy Blast 7d6, Explosion(+1/2)(52 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost(x6 END; -2 1/2), Extra Time(Extra Phase; -3/4), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), No Range(-1/2). 30 END

 

16 Jumbo Nova Blast: Energy Blast +11d6 (adds to Nova Blast), Explosion(+1/2)(82 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost(x6 END; -2 1/2), Extra Time(Extra Phase; -3/4), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), No Range(-1/2). 48 END

 

Note that the character doesn't have to use all of the Nova Blast if he doesn't want to. To use the Jumbo Nova Blast, he has to use the Nova Blast as well, though again neither part has to be used at full power.

 

I think the 78 END (and possibly taking STUN from that alone) and the likelyhood of taking STUN damage from it would dissuade most reasonable players from using it too early (if not completely). Not to mention that he'll be at 0 DCV for Two Full Phases while using this power.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

See, this is why I love these boards. The idea of doing it as an Aid never even occurred to me. Thanks.

Tho I'm a little hesitant about allowing an Aid inside a Framework to affect the Framework itself. Don't know that it's illegal per se, but seems dodgy in my mind.

 

Oh, it's definately not legal to have it inside the framework it affects.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

Personally, I think it is a "cleaner" build to make the Nova Blast it's own slot (as much will fit), and just have the rest outside that adds to it. Fully book legal, and uses no (AFAIK) "special case/GM's Option" rules to do so.

 

56 Nanite Weaponry: Multipower, 56-point reserve

6u 1) Quick Blast: Energy Blast 9d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (56 Active Points). 2 END

3u 2) Big Blast: Energy Blast 11d6 (55 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, Delayed Phase, -3/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4). 5 END

1u 3) Nova Blast: Energy Blast 7d6, Explosion(+1/2)(52 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost(x6 END; -2 1/2), Extra Time(Extra Phase; -3/4), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), No Range(-1/2). 30 END

 

16 Jumbo Nova Blast: Energy Blast +11d6 (adds to Nova Blast), Explosion(+1/2)(82 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost(x6 END; -2 1/2), Extra Time(Extra Phase; -3/4), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), No Range(-1/2). 48 END

 

Note that the character doesn't have to use all of the Nova Blast if he doesn't want to. To use the Jumbo Nova Blast, he has to use the Nova Blast as well, though again neither part has to be used at full power.

And you could even add a limitation to the Nova Blast slot, "Can only be used with the Jumbo Nova Blast addition." Of course, in this case, it wouldn't save you any points since the slot is already at the minimum cost of 1 point.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

Oh' date=' it's definately not legal to have it inside the framework it affects.[/quote']

That was my thinking, but the wording in 5ER wasn't 100% clear. Thanks for the linkage.

 

I'm currently waiting to hear back from the player on how he wants to do this. I'll let y'all know what we finally decide on. Thanks all for the ideas!

[Lucius]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

Ah.. point Talon, I see.

 

Something else occurs to me, why not a big old 1 charge Aid? then you could put it in the multipower, though it'd take two phases to execute.

 

xd6 Aid Multipower Reserve + Nova Blast slot simultaneously +1/2,

 

and then add a Nova Blast Slot

 

u. Nova Blast xd6 Explosion, Personal Immunity, ......

 

Just a thought, if you want to keep it in the power framework.

 

Peace

 

 

Setting aside (as I would quite possibly do) the rule that a power in a framework is not supposed to modify another power in the same or any other framework....

 

As soon as you shift points out of the Aid slot, doesn't the benefit of the Aid vanish?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary ponders building a brick with a "brick trick" multipower including a succor to STR and Hand to Hand Attack....and calling it a "succour punch"

[ghost-angel]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

Setting aside (as I would quite possibly do) the rule that a power in a framework is not supposed to modify another power in the same or any other framework....

 

As soon as you shift points out of the Aid slot, doesn't the benefit of the Aid vanish?

 

No, the points fade normally.

[Comic]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

The only way to settle this is to build a bunch of identical characters, one with each version, and hold a Nova Match.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

No' date=' the points fade normally.[/quote']

 

IIRC, if a slot in a Multipower has been Aided, those points fade immediately when the framework is switched out of that slot.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

The only way to settle this is to build a bunch of identical characters' date=' one with each version, and hold a Nova Match.[/quote']

 

5th Element: "Bada Big Boom!"

[ghost-angel]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

IIRC' date=' if a slot in a Multipower has been Aided, those points fade immediately when the framework is switched out of that slot.[/quote']

 

I misunderstood the question/statement. But the statement still stands.

 

5ER p108-109.

 

If you Aid a slot (say the Nova Slot) and switch out of the Nova Slot the Aided Points Fade immediately.

 

If you switch out of the Aid Slot any Aid you gave to another Power anywhere else Fade normally.

 

Though I believe Lucius is correct - you cannot Aid a Framework that the Aid is part of. But I couldn't find a reference page handy.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

I misunderstood the question/statement. But the statement still stands.

 

5ER p108-109.

 

If you Aid a slot (say the Nova Slot) and switch out of the Nova Slot the Aided Points Fade immediately.

 

If you switch out of the Aid Slot any Aid you gave to another Power anywhere else Fade normally.

 

Though I believe Lucius is correct - you cannot Aid a Framework that the Aid is part of. But I couldn't find a reference page handy.

 

Adding to this, assuming the slot Aided is already at the full MP pool, I believe you must Aid both the slot and the pool to gain the benefit of the Aid.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nova Blast (sanity check, please)

 

I misunderstood the question/statement. But the statement still stands.

 

5ER p108-109.

 

If you Aid a slot (say the Nova Slot) and switch out of the Nova Slot the Aided Points Fade immediately.

 

If you switch out of the Aid Slot any Aid you gave to another Power anywhere else Fade normally.

 

Though I believe Lucius is correct - you cannot Aid a Framework that the Aid is part of. But I couldn't find a reference page handy.

 

5ER P310 1st column penultimate paragraph.

 

I think someone may have already mentioned it in this thread, or possibly another. It is all beginning to blur.