Elseworlds

[Legatus]

Re: Elseworlds

 

How about one where the Nazis won' date=' but they were the good guys and America was fascist? [/quote']

 

 

Doesn't work! It is a basic characteristic of the Nazi regime to be fascist and racist, totalitarian and militaristic. You cannot declare them to be good and not take away their defining principles.

 

Try a campaign where the wolves are herbivores and the caribou are carnivores. Soon the wolves would have antlers and mass in herds. And the caribous would get claws, hunt in packs and lose their antlers.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Elseworlds

 

Doesn't work! It is a basic characteristic of the Nazi regime to be fascist and racist' date=' totalitarian and militaristic. You cannot declare them to be good and not take away their defining principles.[/quote']

 

There's nothing stopping the good guys from being Germans who are partial to slick uniforms and swastikas, though.

[Legatus]

Re: Elseworlds

 

There's nothing stopping the good guys from being Germans who are partial to slick uniforms and swastikas' date=' though.[/quote']

 

Come on, if you use Germans and Nazis as equal terms, that would offend me. Saying Germans could be the good guys is not the same as saying the Nazis could be the good guys (always referring to the plot idea, of course;)). And leave the swastika, it's a typical Nazi symbol. Though I know that the swastika has not always been a symbol of evil.

 

I don't want this thread to end in a debate about Nazis. I just wanted to say, please be more creative than that.

 

Now end of this. And let's hear some more interesting alternate earth plot ideas.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Elseworlds

 

Come on, if you use Germans and Nazis as equal terms, that would offend me. Saying Germans could be the good guys is not the same as saying the Nazis could be the good guys (always referring to the plot idea, of course;)). And leave the swastika, it's a typical Nazi symbol. Though I know that the swastika has not always been a symbol of evil.

 

I don't want this thread to end in a debate about Nazis. I just wanted to say, please be more creative than that.

 

Now end of this. And let's hear some more interesting alternate earth plot ideas.

 

I suppose my point was that, in an alternate universe, the good guys could have all the trappings that the bad guys have in this universe. Strictly speaking, they would not be Nazis as we know them, but could appear that way to us, and even call themselves National Socialists without the stigma it carries for us.

 

And I didn't mean to imply that all Germans are Nazis, and I apologize if that's how it came across. Or even that all Nazis are German, although a German accent with a Nazi uniform tends to cement the image for Americans.

 

At any rate, it is cliche, and other avenues could and should be explored (I liked your WWI idea), but even so, cliches can be fun, especially in a comic book setting.

[Battlestaff]

Re: Elseworlds

 

*What if the Russian Revolution failed?

*What if the Chinese settled the west coast of North America before the European settlers arrived?

*What if the South was successful in becoming a separate country during the American Civil War?

[assault]

Re: Elseworlds

 

What if decades of Mad Science and Silver Age style Alien Invasions had changed the world?

[Susano]

Re: Elseworlds

 

Clichées and stereotypes' date=' is that all you can think of when talking about Germany? Why does it always have to be: What if the Nazis had won World War II?[/quote']

 

It's the standard American "what-if" right next to "what if the South had won the American Civil War?" or "what if the American Revolution had failed?" And in the former case, you don't really need to explain much to the players if the first thing they see if red and white banners with the swastika on them all over Main Street USA.

 

In truth, you can take any pivotal war and look at it the other way.

 

What if the Mongols had taken Japan in 1200?

What if the Aztecs had metal working and had beaten Spain?

What if Greece never fell?

 

And so on.

[Susano]

Re: Elseworlds

 

Doesn't work! It is a basic characteristic of the Nazi regime to be fascist and racist' date=' totalitarian and militaristic. You cannot declare them to be good and not take away their defining principles.[/quote']

 

Ahhh... but this is the other classic "Elseworlds" -- where everything is backwards and the heroes are villains and the villains are heroes.

 

So the German Democratic Republic uses their advanced technology (jets, rockets, subs) to defend Europe from the power-hungry American Empire, who seeks to conquer the world after taking all of North and South America. Dump the swastikas and death's heads, keep the snazzy uniforms and kick-ass armor, and away we go.

[Shaft]

Re: Elseworlds

 

If you're looking at Alternate Realities, I highly recommend GURPS Alternate Earths and GURPS Alternate Earths 2. They each feature 6 alternate realities with a lot of detail.

[Legatus]

Re: Elseworlds

 

Another classic would be the

 

"all heroes are now villains and all villains are now heroes" idea!!!

 

There were some Star Trek: DS9 episodes built this way, if I remember it correctly. So you only had to change the positioning of individual characters in a otherwise unchanged setting.

[Susano]

Re: Elseworlds

 

Another classic would be the

 

"all heroes are now villains and all villains are now heroes" idea!!!

 

There were some Star Trek: DS9 episodes built this way, if I remember it correctly. So you only had to change the positioning of individual characters in a otherwise unchanged setting.

 

The first one was the ST: TOS episode Mirror, Mirror where the Federation was an aggressive empire (with no idea on how the Klingons ended up).

[Legatus]

Re: Elseworlds

 

The alternate TV Earth, where all of your favorite TV heroes are actual superheroes: (must be played for laughs)

 

Magnum: Hawaii's premier superhero, but he needs his superfriends T.C. (Thundercloud?) for flying him around and Rick to provide him with all sorts of contacts; his main nemesis is ...guess who

 

Charlie's Angels: sexy super-spies

 

Colt Seavers: the survives-all-man

 

The 6-Million-Dollar-Man: haven't we met this guy before?

 

Rockford: transforms to rock

 

add more of your choice

[Susano]

Re: Elseworlds

 

Or, you could end up in the world of Heroes, for a somewhat more Iron Age experience.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Elseworlds

 

I actually did run a sort of "elseworlds" story arc in my last CU-based campaign, a result of the efforts of Takofanes. My rationalization for all his apparently random attacks over the years since he first appeared was that they weren't random at all. They were harvesting souls and infusing the land with magic to prepare for a great ritual to transform the world into an analog of the Turakian Age, with Tak himself once again the ruler and at his full power level from ancient times.

 

My PCs were rushing to confront Takofanes and thus near to him when he completed the ritual, and so were the only ones to remember the world the way it used to be. People acknowledged Takofanes as ruler in much the same way that Americans acknowledge George Bush as president; someone they don't actually interact with and who has little impact on their daily lives. (No direct comparison between Tak and Bush implied.) Washington had been reshaped to resemble the Archlich's ancient northern fortress from TA, which the heroes had to penetrate to find the means to reverse the spells.

 

What disconcerted the PCs (in a fun way for the players, as I'd hoped) was that while their abilities were mostly intact, they had been changed to their closest TA analogues. For example, the team gadgeteer was now a Dwarf and the SFX of his equipment was now period weapons and artifacts; while the mentalist found herself in the body of a Migdalar.

 

The Champions Universe also includes an official MacGuffin which has much the same world-reshaping potential, the Jade Mirror of Transcendence. Dr. Yin Wu seeks to find or create the Mirror to turn the world into a medieval version of China, with Yin Wu as Emperor.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Elseworlds

 

*What if the South was successful in becoming a separate country during the American Civil War?

 

The World of Epic City and the Civil War

 

Most people incorrectly state that the Civil War was fought over slavery. That statement is false. While slavery was an important issue in the war, one the Lincoln government brought up frequently to try to stir up feelings against the Confederated Societies and to try to foment rebellion among the southern slaves, it was not the main issue. The main issue and cause of the Civil War was city-states’ rights.

 

The United States of America was set up around the premise of a strong central government that set federal taxes for all of its states and had the power to veto or change any laws passed by state governments. The southern states, whose economy relied on agriculture, not industry like the northern states, disagreed with this method of government, believing that each state, and even city, knew best how to govern itself.

 

On February 19th, 1861, after many years of the federal government of the United States passing laws that benefited the industry of the North while penalizing the agriculture of the South, and the northern states trying to limit or abolish slavery, which the southern states felt was essential for the success of their economy, the Confederated Societies of America, a coalition of Southern City-Societies, was formed and Jefferson Davis was named its first President. In all, 11 southern city-states secede from the Union and joined the Confederacy. The capital of the Confederated Societies was Richmond, Virginia.

 

The Civil War raged for 4 years. It is still the costliest war, in terms of lives, that the United Societies has even experienced. Over 3 million people fought in the war, and more than 600,000 died. In the end though, the Confederated Societies of America proved victorious, with Union General Ulysses S. Grant surrendering to Confederate General Robert E. Lee at Appomattox Court House in Virginia on April 9th, 1865. The southern victory is generally attributed to the military genius of General Lee, who succeeded Jefferson Davis to become the second president of the Confederated Societies in 1868.

 

In large part due to his failure to win the war, Abraham Lincoln was defeated in his bid for reelection by George B. McClellan, one of his own former generals. President McClellan ineffectually led a defeated and demoralized United States until he was assassinated by Jonathan Booth Wilkinson two years into his term. McClellan’s Vice President, George H. Pendelton, held office for two years until he was defeated in the general election by Ulysses S. Grant, the same man who surrendered to Lee four years before.

 

Roughly five and a half years into the presidencies of Robert E. Lee and Ulysses S. Grant, the two men started talking of reunification. The talks began at the behest of Grant. The United States had fared poorly in the aftermath of the War and was in a slow decline. They had also come to rely heavily on trade with their neighbors in the Confederacy to receive food and clothing. Grant felt that only through reunification could his country survive. Lee did not see the need for reunification at first. The Confederated Societies as a whole had become more rich and powerful since the war, something Lee credited to his people’s ability to effectively govern themselves. On their own, they had slowly begun to abolish slavery, eventually turning all slaves into free, paid workers. However, Lee could see that the resources of the United States could be put to good use.

 

It took many months of talks and much convincing, but Grant was finally able to convince Lee and the governments of the Confederated Societies that reunification would work to the benefit of everyone. On July 4th, 1874, six months after an agreement to abolish the Northern states and reestablish the classic city-state government practiced by the South had been reached, the United States of America and the Confederated Societies of America rejoined to become the United Societies of America. Robert E. Lee was the United Societies’ first president and Ulysses S. Grant was his Vice President. July 4th is now known as Reunification Day.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Elseworlds

 

What if Japan had seized Western China during WWII instead of grinding themselves to death against the Alliance?.

 

The Rising Sun Hegemony (in the world of Epic City)

 

The first invasion by the Japanese occurred in an island in the eastern sea off China’s coast. The islands (Okinawa is the nowadays capital) --- called Liu Qiu Islands, had always been a protectorate of China since the early 200 BC. But in 1872 Japan invaded the islands and Chinese Qing Dynasty failed to protect the islanders. After the occupation, Japan imposed cultural genocide on Liu Qiu natives. Liu Qiu natives were forbidden to learn about their own history, language and culture, and thus ceased to be an independent nation.

 

On 24 October 1894, Japanese army invaded Liaodung and Shandong peninsulas of China.

 

November 22, 1894, Japanese troops captured the city of Lushuan on Liaotung peninsula and started a massacre of soldiers and civilians alike, leaving that populous city with only 36 survivors. It was the first massacre committed by the Japanese troops in China.

 

Japan and Russia declared war to each other on 10 February 1904 over the imperialistic rights in Manchuria, China. Japan defeated Russia in southern Manchuria on the land and in the sea.

 

On October 10, 1911, Chinese revolution to overthrow Qing dynasty began with the Wuchang Uprising and province after province broke with the dynasty. The outcome was that the Manchu Child-emperor formally abdicated on February 12, 1912. The Republic of China was born with Founding Father, Dr. Sun Yat-sen.

 

After WWI, in 1915, Japan invaded Shandong and forced China to grant them the imperialistic rights not only in the former German concession but also in the province of Shandong.

 

On May 4, 1919 some 3,000 college students staged a dramatic demonstration to protest further interference in Chinese affairs by the imperialist powers. China had sent labor battalions to France during WWI on the allied side, in order to gain a voice in peace settlement. But when the powers met at Versailles, they ignored China and assigned Germany’s former possession in Shandong to Japan. The students were outraged. The demonstration became violent, and China never signed the ill-fated Treaty of Versailles.

 

Japanese Prime Minister Tanaka proclaimed Japan’s strategy for achieving hegemony in East Asia. In this strategy, Japan’s objectives are:

-To conquer China, Japan must first control Manchuria and Mongolia

-To conquer the world, Japan must first control China by making China a Japanese colony.

 

By 1928, China’s Nationalist Party had conquered Beijing and controlled most of China under the leadership of Chiang Kai-shek.

 

After taking over Shanghai, Japanese troops marched toward Nanjing, the capital of China. They reached the outskirts of Nanjing on 8 December 1937 and on 13 December, the city of Nanjing finally fell to the hands of the Japanese.

 

In November 1938 Japanese government prime minister Konoe Fumimaro proclaimed Japan’s determination to establish a "New Order in East Asia" to include Japan, Manchuria and China in a political economic, and cultural union.

 

On November 22, 1943, leaders of the US and Britain announced the "Cairo Communiqué" on World War II strategies in Cairo, Egypt.

 

China staged a national counter-offense starting in July 7, 1945. The Japanese Imperial Army in China defeated the Chinese rebellion in Nanjing on September 9, 1945, finishing a century long invasion of China. Japan managed to take the eastern part of China and kill more than 35 million Chinese people after more than 100 years of invasion. Thus The Rising Sun Hegemony was born directly into adulthood as a major power in the world.

 

WWII and The Bomb?

 

By the summer of 1945 the need to end the war seemed obvious and a legitimate reason for the use of the A-bomb, however, it is important to note that "estimates" of the situation, failed to clarify the The Rising Sun Hegemony’s situation in August 1945. The Rising Sun Hegemony was beaten. Its country was physically and militarily broken. Decrypted intercepted RSH messages (MAGIC) of 12th and the 25th July were impressive confirmation of RSH trajectories to decline. Leon V. Sigal, not only reiterates this, but is bold enough to say that senior United Societies officials also knew the situation. Why then use the bomb? In 1945, American policy was set on unconditional surrender. The Rising Sun Hegemony had lost the war, but, for a time was unwilling to accept this demand. They had more than eight million soldiers available to fight, and were going to make any invasion attempt so costly for the Americans, that they would negotiate for peace. In the light of this, the killing of a few to save many seemed justified. "To avert a vast, indefinite butchery, by a few explosions." Wrote Churchill, "seemed after all our perils and toils, a miracle of deliverance." Thus, was the general consensus at the time. But, thanks to the wisdom of one man, the nuclear agenda was averted.

 

Emperor Hirohito, a quiet man with a love for haiku and marine biology, was in command of The Rising Sun Hegemony. He presented an outward appearance of a peace-loving man. True, he was behind the atrocities suffered by China. But when the inevitability of his country's situation in August 1945 became apparent he weighed the options as a chess player would. Hirohito chose to immediately accept America's call for unconditional surrender. After doing so he quietly used his remaining eight million soldiers to reinforce the Imperial situation in China, especially near Manchuria where Chinese revolutionists were making headway against the imperial occupation.

 

Accepting MacArthur's implicit bargain -- help me and I'll keep you from being tried as a war criminal -- Hirohito did his part to remake The Rising Sun Hegemony along an American model, backing the new constitution, "renouncing" his divinity, and trying gamely to play the part of "Japan's first democrat." By the time his 62-year reign came to an end, Tokyo had become the governmental center of The Rising Sun Hegemony and had become one of the world's richest cities. It was in demonstrating this remarkable capacity for change that Hirohito "The Crane" truly became the living symbol of his people.

 

Today The Rising Sun Hegemony is a world leader boasting a prospering population three times that of the USA. Relations between the Britain Empire, the United Societies of America and the Rising Sun Hegemony remain good.

 

China, however, remains dire straits. Though China survived its invasion and The Rising Sun Hegemony no longer strives for complete domination of the entire eastern world they were left with very little to work with. Communism emerged in China as the only means for survival. In reaction to The Rising Sun Hegemony 's growing power a strong bond was formed between China and the Soviet block. That relationship saved China from entire obliteration and has caused much tension in the east.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Elseworlds

 

Dump the swastikas and death's heads' date=' [/quote']

 

I can see dropping the death's heads if they're the good guys, but swastikas had no bad connotation until WWII. Heck, you can still find them all over the place in Chinese culture, where their connotation is still good luck.

[Susano]

Re: Elseworlds

 

Now that's a twist...

 

Wait, Reunification Day? So where does Mal and the rest of the Browncoats fit into all of this?

[GoldenAge]

Re: Elseworlds

 

Another classic would be the

 

"all heroes are now villains and all villains are now heroes" idea!!!

 

There were some Star Trek: DS9 episodes built this way, if I remember it correctly. So you only had to change the positioning of individual characters in a otherwise unchanged setting.

 

The original Star Trek Elsworlds: Mirror, Mirror.

Goatees = Evil!

 

[Susano]

Re: Elseworlds

 

I can see dropping the death's heads if they're the good guys' date=' but swastikas had no bad connotation until WWII. Heck, you can still find them all over the place in Chinese culture, where their connotation is still good luck.[/quote']

 

You need to reverse them then, to make them into good luck symbols.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Elseworlds

 

Now that's a twist...

 

Wait, Reunification Day? So where does Mal and the rest of the Browncoats fit into all of this?

 

[Susano]

Re: Elseworlds

 

 

[hfergus]

Re: Elseworlds

 

Dump the swastikas and death's heads' date=' keep the snazzy uniforms and kick-ass armor, and away we go.[/quote']

Why dump either? We say the swastika is evil because the Nazis used it. As others say, rotating the other way it is a good symbol. Death's head automatically evil? Why? I'm sure celebrants of the day of the dead would disagree; they use death heads (skulls, skeletons, etc.) all over - even as candy! It can be celebrating death, sure, but what if it's just to look tough? Or as a reminder not to forget the dead? As others have stated Nazi is just another name for the party. Keep the socialism and dump the racism, and many problems disappear. If you're going to be consistent, ban all Nazi symbols - lightning bolt (SS) and eagles (all over a lot of their stuff - stylized and quickly recognizable as Nazi.)

 

By the way, I've always said the Nazi uniforms looked snazzy too, and the Americans in particular looked like slobs occasionally. Can't the good guys dress nice? (Most dress uniforms do look good, but other than that...)

[Susano]

Re: Elseworlds

 

Why dump either? We say the swastika is evil because the Nazis used it. As others say, rotating the other way it is a good symbol. Death's head automatically evil? Why? I'm sure celebrants of the day of the dead would disagree; they use death heads (skulls, skeletons, etc.) all over - even as candy! It can be celebrating death, sure, but what if it's just to look tough? Or as a reminder not to forget the dead? As others have stated Nazi is just another name for the party. Keep the socialism and dump the racism, and many problems disappear. If you're going to be consistent, ban all Nazi symbols - lightning bolt (SS) and eagles (all over a lot of their stuff - stylized and quickly recognizable as Nazi.)

 

By the way, I've always said the Nazi uniforms looked snazzy too, and the Americans in particular looked like slobs occasionally. Can't the good guys dress nice? (Most dress uniforms do look good, but other than that...)

 

I was one of the ones who mentioned reversing the swastika to turn it into the good luck/solar symbol of Buddha. As for the death's heads... it's one thing as part of a religious observance, but has a far different connotation with regards to a military unit. Dropping the lighting bolt SS isn't a bad idea, but the Imperial Eagle has been a part of Germany for a long time.

 

And you could keep Germany socialist, provided you drop the fascism . Of course, many political systems look good on paper, but have poor execution (communism anyone?).

[Clonus]

Re: Elseworlds

 

You need to reverse them then' date=' to make them into good luck symbols.[/quote']

 

Yeah, that's a myth of course. The swastika is in the direction that was supposed to give good luck. Why would the Nazis want to give themselves bad luck? Wouldn't make sense even for them. Although it might be amusing to give their mirror universe counterparts the sauvastika, and certainly in ancient China the two directions were interchangeable and meaningles..